[mmdw45]

I've only read the preview to MT that comes with HoC, but it seems the Tiste Andii are a lot older than I thought. I had the impression, from MoI, that the Tiste Andii were relatively recent arrivals to the world, but MT has Rake's younger brother showing up in the time of the K'Chain Che'Malle. That means Rake is older than Tool or Kilava! So, am I reading this right? And I guess that means Gothos (and probably Icarium) is also older than the T'Lan Imass. Could anyone give me a brief rundown on what we know about prehistoric chronology?

-Max Wilson

[tiam]

Chronology is a sketchy subject but my interpretation is that the KCCM ruled the world virtually bar a few (7c) at the beginning. the prologue to MT shows the the last enclave of KCCM i beleive. At this time the jaghut have risen and fell and become isolationists and the imass are dominant. The fact that Scabby disregards the imass as simple cavemen (he says that stone weapons are no match for his edur.) suggests they havent partaken of the ritual yet which adds a threat that even bloodeye must acknowledge. Also i beleive Rake and his Andii came to the malaz world long before the edur did so that suggests that rake is incredibly old. It sed he has looked upon 100 000 winters. However Rake came to malaz on his own and was koined by andii later. So this suggest 100 000 years but he is far older. e was known in the time of the EG which suggests hes been on malaz half a million years or more (this was when the KCCM were dominant on malaz) but he was in his world/ warren alot longer than that. So as to your question around 500 000+

Some of this is fact some speculation but if anyone has a better idea then plz critiscise my appraisal

[Dolorous Menhir]

Yeah, it's undetermined. The timeline of races on the mainworld seems to be:

unknown era (FA dominance? time of the KCNR? Eres, as first race?), then

KCCM dominance, Jaghut subject to them. Eres and Deragoth exist on Seven Cities at least. Duration unknown.

KCCM fall for various reasons, Jaghut pre-eminent race. Scabby's Edur and Ruin's Andii arrive from racial warrens, Rake's Andii already in the world for unknown length of time. Imass exist by this point, but not considered powerful by Scabby (this is the MT prologue info)

Jaghut rule for unknown of time, Tyrants arise and enslave the Imass.

the Ritual occurs, formation of True First Empire, Imass commit racial suicide in order to wage genocide without cease (~300,000 years BS, this is the earliest confirmed date in the series). Barghast (and presumably humans) descend from Imass who missed the Ritual.

Jaghut near extinction, humans become dominant race. Human First Empire of Dessimbelackis & Kallorean Empire arise independently around 120,000 year BS (MoI prologue). Edur civilisation already in place on Lether continent at establishment of First Empire outpost there?

Both Empires fall, but humans remain dominant race until time of main series.

Got no idea where the FA fall in this timeline, very scarce info on them. If they had a period of dominance, it must have been before the KCCM ruled. Ruin had made moves to destroy the FA before his imprisonment, and seemed to be very successful. Where to put the TTT is also problematic.

The KCCM, the Tiste races and possibly the FA are all visitors to Malaz world from other realms. As such it is hard to determine their respective ages. We really don't know how old Rake is, but I would say 500,000 years is a definite underestimate. It's been 300,000 years alone since the Ritual, and I think a significant amount of time occured between MT prologue and the Ritual, as time is needed to allow for the Tyrants to arise. Rake was already in the world before MT prologue, and had been out of touch with Ruin's Andii for a long time, so much so that Scabby didn't consider him a threat.

And we've got no info at all about how old he was before coming to Malazworld. If you buy into his status as "first child of Mother Dark" then he is, I would say, older than everything and everyone except the Elder Gods themselves (and I'm including the Malazworld, all warrens except KG & SD, all known races except maybe the dragons, in that statement). He's certainly older than all other characters we've encountered in the series, except for the EG's and possibly the Dragons. He's definitely older than Tool & Kilava, they are just sprightly youngsters at 300,000 and change. That's nothing compared to the children of Mother Dark.

[tiam]

i think your wrong about the jaghut supremacy being after Scabbys arrival. Doesnt he describe the jaghut as scattered and few.

I also agree Rake is closer to being a million + years but on terms of facts weve only being in one reference to the KCCM 500 000 back (some quote says that the KCCM reigned 500 000 years ago so thats the date i used. I dont beleive the FA are from outside Malaz. Are the KCCM? i thought they were just evolved dinosaurs

[Jheral]

That sure is a long time to live... Anyway, I was under the impression that the FA are from the Malazan world. Iirc, some edur in MT says something to that effect(I think it was one of the K'risnan. I'll try to find the page). However, I can't remember anything that indicates that the KC are alien to the Malazan world. Has there been anything that confirms that, and if so, could you give me a qoute?

Edit: Beat me to it, tiam

[tiam]

sorry

Also i would l8ike to see a quote that says the KC are alien. O and id forgot about the Krisnan comment about serenity in MT.

[Jheral]

Here's the quote about FA(MT p589):

Quote

'I am Forkrul Assail. I am named Serenity.'
'You are a demon, then?'
The head cocked. 'I am?'
'This is not your world.'
'It isn't?'
Rhuald half turned. 'K'risnan, banish him.'
'I cannot, Emperor.'

Since he cannot be banished, and since he seems certain that he's no demon, I assume he's not alien to the Malazan world.

[Jheral]

minor BH spoiler

Spoiler

Yes, the sky keeps were alien. That, however, doesn't mean that the KC have to be.

Could be that they were originally from the Malazan world, and somehow managed to travel to other worlds.

[Father Light]

Rake hasn't aged as a normal tiste andii, he is older than andarist yet andarist has aged and appears old

[Jheral]

Well, Rake is a Eleint Soletaken, and Andarist is not. Could have something to do with it.

[Aptorian]

Jheral said:

minor BH spoiler

Spoiler

Yes, the sky keeps were alien. That, however, doesn't mean that the KC have to be.

Could be that they were originally from the Malazan world, and somehow managed to travel to other worlds.

Perhaps the old broken moon(s) contained K'Chain and when one of them broke up, the lizards made new homes out of the fragments of their homes.

[Boulder]

On the Forkrul Assail again, they cannot be solely native to Malaz's world. Silchas Ruin says to Kettle that he annilhated many of them, and he was imprisoned in the Azath soon after arriving in MW (well we aren't told soon but he is fighting the KCCM until the betrayal, so no time for FA...). Thus he must have found them elsewhere.
This doesn't help with tho Rake because he is Ruin's older brother