[GardenGnome]

I stumbled across this thread: http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=4816 and wanted to pick up the discussion from there. Rather than threadomancing, I decided to start a new thread, as that one was originally about Curdle and Telorast....



Apsalar seems to have become quite powerful in BH. She kills 307 claws and the clawmaster (what a pussy - anyway...), and has a little fight with the hounds of shadow. Now, the hounds of shadow might be because they think of her as Cotilion, and therefore were not prepared to be attacked.

Let's bring up a few quotes from BH - the ones I could find right not, anyway:
"Never cross this one, Curdle," Telorast hissed. "Never." (page 537)

Page 551 for the fight between Apsalar and HoS - here we see she has gained a lot of weight lately, or she kicks at near-lightspeed (this is a reference to normal laws of physics - I think the actual explanation is that she has gained some powers): "he saw a foot lash out, connect with a beast's head [...] and that head snapped round at the impact, shoulders following, then torso, twisting round"
However, in this fight the hounds are scared by C&T - dragons, even though in rather small shapes. I also think they are confused, as they think the attacker is Cotilion.

And page 844-846 for how she basically slaughters 308 claws.


One thing is, she's made peace with herself and what she is. That much should make sense. Also, a bit older (and thus, a more mature body - I allways gathered she was quite young) would help. In addition, she now seems to be able to access some of Cotilion's memories from after he ascended? In one of her POVs it said something which made me consider that - allthough I seem to remember from DG or so that she could only access his memories up to the point he ascended. Sadly, I can't quite find the quote for it, but it was something along the lines of "not even Cotilion ", if that helps anyone to remember more.

However, she is quite god-like these days, compared to earlier books, and I can't really find any reason for it. C&T seems like a possible source, but there has been no hinting of it that as far as I can remember. Shadowdance obviously plays some part in it, but how so? The entire dance is somewhat of a mystery to us now, allthough it would seem she inherited the formidable dancing powers (heh...) of Dancer (hence the name). ST seems to clearly state that she is stronger than Cotilion - allthough, he could be talking about anything, really (this is after she killed Pearl - ST says "Not even Cotilion. Not even Cotilion", page 846). Maybe she has a more gracious dance, for all we know.

But ok, Shadow Dance. What do we know of it? It's danced by acolytes (or something similar) in the temples of Rashan and Meanas (or maybe just one of the two, I'm uncertain). It is clearly aspected to the shadowreal - I remember Pearl accepting it as a plausible explanation for the "scent of shadow" around Lostara Yil, after she has talked with Cotilion - well, she had danced too, IIRC, it helped keep her body flexible. This is all from HoC I believe - before she goes out on the quest with Pearl, when she thinks back to when she was in the temple, and Quick Ben (who possibly wasn't QB) visited.

In the previously linked thread, someone says she has ascended - can someone bring up a page to look at? I somehow missed it, and it would explain why she is suddenly so kickarse.

Further ideas to explain her newgained (?) powers?

[Illuyankas]

She can remember things from before Cotillion ascended, such as remembering Urko trying to drown Dancer, or going to argue with Laseen over the Aren Massacre (possible paradox there, but nevermind).

And we assume she's ascended from, at the very least, the fact she's immune to the plague, and the extra power she's amassed.

[fan_83]

shes so powerful cos she inherited all of cotts memory up till he ascended, that means she inherited all of his memories and his skills in everything.. everythign cott knows and is good at up till he ascended, aps know as well..

add to the fact that shadow dancing is a limber and graceful art, aps has a slight advantage.. also since she accepted and assimilated the memories, she basically becoame cott 2 , with some parts better than otehrs,.. throughout that process, she sort of ascended,..

t&c has no discernable effect on her power level. they manage to help scare the hounds off

the original form of shadow dancing is used by hte cult of shadows as an assasin tool. later it was bastardised as a form of entertainment.. it invokes shadows in a manner yet unknown to us...

[GingerBreadMan]

She is powerful, anytime an assassin ascends it's a scary combination.

But as far as pure power, I don't think she can is that far up.

[Illuyankas]

I'm pretty sure that she remembers some of Cot's memories after his ascension, for example the three dragons in the Shadow Realm.

[Hume]

Can someone please point out to me why they think apsalar has ascended ?
she can shadow dance, wow, What if there are no shadows around ?
no more shadow dancing in the light of day of course.

[GardenGnome]

Illuyankas said:

And we assume she's ascended from, at the very least, the fact she's immune to the plague,

Kellanved, Dancer and all the rest gained immunity to "certain sicknesses", and other handy stuff, such as longevity, after they first entered the Deadhouse Azath. Apsalar can either have inherited that from Cotilion, or it happened to herself, when she entered Tremorlor.


Hmm, I wonder if entering different Azath houses gives different enhancements?

Illuyankas said:

and the extra power she's amassed.

Ok, on that I can agree - we have seen no explanation for it, but it must've come from somewhere.
But ok, we have no actual direct evidence in the book, you just assume so because of indirect evidence? Such as her power?

[Hume]

@ Garden gnome

Entering the Azath house Tremorlor should not have granted Apsalar 'special' powers at all. Fiddler, Crokus, Mappo, Icarium and Iskarul all went into that Azath at the same time but have not come out any different either.
The only reasan Apsalar and the others got into that house was because it wanted the Demon Moby to be its new Gaurdian and while door was still open the others creeped in.

She has inherited her abilities from Cotillion, The pre-eminent assassin in Wu ,simple as that.

[Aptorian]

I think there is one thing that we need to accept before we start determing characters powerlevels and then compare them to others.

It's been proven that when a new important part of story starts, where some characters are put in the middle of things, SE seems to bump up people abilities and downplay others.
A marine was able to kill one of Dejim Nebrals forms even though we hear it killing 10 mages in the start and in its weakest form. A bearbeast is able to scare of a trygalle mage and 10 or so shareholders but runs away from karsa. Trull Sengar survives a score fights, killing a couple hundred edurs during a year, then can't hold off two of his old comrades, and then is suddenly able to keep Icarium at bay with a spear of blackwood when the other edur are litterally ripped apart by the keening of Icarium. Now I've heard a hundred different reasons for these things, it could be that A, because B and naturally that would mean C. But the fact is that SE likes to change things up on us.

I know that the saying goes that, in the Malaz world, people are able to commit amazing feats when they are pushed to the maximum of their abilities. But I don't quite buy it, sometimes I just think it's SE's medling with the laws of his own universe.

The Apsalar story isn't any different. If you think about it you also hear in one of the books, Cotillion appearing on an edur ship and killing the entire boat, without breaking a sweat.

That night I see two things kicking in A) we haven't really seen Apsalar unfold before that day, maybe because she was still at war within her self 'cause of the possesion and The element of surprise. I mean the Claws are good but a person using the abilities of a ascendant assassin while shadowdancing would be damn tough.

[Aptorian]

Ah wait, I know why I personally regarded her as an ascendant. In the list of ascendants, Apsalar, the lady of thieves, is mentioned. But then again this is probably just a refference to the old Apsalar (imass?).

But if she isn't an ascendant, then STs mentioning of Cotillion wouldn't make sense. If she isn't an ascendent then she can't compare with Cotillion and ST should have been saying "not even Dancer" or "not even Kalam" in stead.

Damn you Steven Erikson, you are making me dizzy *shakes his fist at the books*

[GardenGnome]

HUME: With the Azath thing I was just musing, and I primarily meant how the old Imperial gang gained immunity to diseases, not her other powers. It might just as well have happened to Apsalar an co when they entered Tremorlor - after all, we have no evidence on the contrary.

Apt: Yes, all that is true. However, I'm still looking for an explanation behind that physics-defying kick of hers. Then again, it could just be like in any Hollywood production, and just exagerated because it's "cool".

[Tiger_sword]

Ok. She gained her knowledge of shadow and shadow dancing from Cotillon (Dancers) memories so ergo she could shadow dance to the same standard as him after the possesion. Therfore something has occured to HER that increases her abillity. I personally think it is just natural talent. She probably would have been a good dancer anyway but the additional knowledge gained from the possesion could give her an edge.

[Aptorian]

Unless something is mentioned that implies a power or ability, you shouldn't think it just is that way. If Fiddler had gained immunity to diseases he should also had gained increased healing powers which he doesnt have under Y'Ghatan and he probably shouldn't suffer from sea sickness either

"Physics-defying" is a funny word in a fantasy book. If its the speed, the book just says - he saw a foot lash out,connect with a beasts head - which was as big as horses only wider - and that head snapped around at the impact...] etc throwing it through a wall.
The speed isn't surprising so I'm guessing you are thinking about the strenght of a 60kg body against a creature the size of a an enormous mule. She might just have been using the beasts momentum all though I don't see how that lifted it through the air or maybe you shouldn't think to highly of it and just accept that it looks a lot cooler.

[Hume]

@ Garden Gnome.
The ones that gained immunity to diseases and other stuff due to Azath occupation were Dancer and Kellanved, the other old imperials eg Nok, Urko etc gained longevity and immunity from various alchemies given from Kellanved. Only two people were allowed in that Azath house. Maybe some of the other old guard got in there at times in a similar way that the Tremorlor crew did. But yeh that seems to be common misconception lately that the old imperial gang had access to that Azath house..

@ Apt
I personally Dont think many of those points are valid and your statement of 'Eriskon meddling with the laws of his own universe.'
All fights etc are circumstantial to the outcomes of what and who are involved. Those mages got whooped because they started praying werent going to attack, that seemed to be the implication to me. With the two warriors trull fights he says they have imporved quite a lot, and he had to fight both at once. Try imagining the difference between fighting two fairly decent fighters at once to one uber fighter.

[Aptorian]

@Hume
yes but these circumstances sometimes seems a bit... happenstance. I see your point, we just differ in opinions
I won't try and start this discussion up here since it seems more fitting in the critism thread.

[majander]

GardenGnome said:

HUME: With the Azath thing I was just musing, and I primarily meant how the old Imperial gang gained immunity to diseases, not her other powers. It might just as well have happened to Apsalar an co when they entered Tremorlor - after all, we have no evidence on the contrary.

The only problem with this as an explanation is that the same exposure to an Azath didn't protect Dujek from the same plague. I feel that Apsalar still has something more going on. My own personal bit of craziness is that she will either become the Queen of House Shadow or, preferably, be the one to gut Laseen and take the Empire.

[Dinivan]

Quote

the same exposure to an Azath didn't protect Dujek from the same plague.

I struggled on this fact a long time as i read about Dujeks death. But then: Dujek might have sort of an imunity against illnesses, but he isn't an ascendent. There might be a different level of protection in this. Secondly, Dujek+CO marched directly into Poliels temple (i.e. source of desease) and therefore got the full blast. Maybe more than just Azath-resistence is needed to counter the responsible godess in person. I don't think the Azath has done anything at all - merely because the gifts of a Azath might alter a normal person, but an already ascendent is already gifted

I strongly think that Apsalar is ascended, there was some mention she's on the road to ascension earlier, but in BH I took her ascension for granted.

[Hume]

Hume is dying for the moment when Apsalar is walking along and and gets bitten some random snake and dies....
One can only hope...
And yeh Apt, thats cool Hume isnt in the Mood for a argument/discussion on this either.

Hume thinks Aps is NOT an ascendant and struggles to find a good reason for it. Not just something thats from a feeling.

My two cents.. I'll shutup on the Apsalar thing now...

[fan_83]

err those that enter teh azath house gets some sort of protection, the ones you listed like iccy. and mappo, and fiddler already don;t need such a protection or have already got the protection.. fidd has been inside an azath house before i htink, and although dujek has some protection, its doubtful that its enough to go face to face with the goddess of diseases.. otherwise all those who enter the azath house will be nearly immune to anything

also defending against 2 person is way harder than defedning against 1.. if 2 person move away form each otehr and goes into a pincer movement, you are screwed, whereas against one, you can shift to compensate..

also i may have given the impression that aps is ascendent, but thinking of it now, i think shes on the road to ascension and is quite far gone but isn;t there yet

hume: as if she will get bitten when she has 2 pet dragons running around