[drza44]

Through most of the posts that I've been able to find about the apparently impending Icarium/Karsa/Rhulad confrontation, it seems that most have been in agreement that Rhulad is pretty much toast if he faces either of them and that the really interesting battle would be Icarium vs. Karsa.

While reading Bonehunters that was my feeling too, especially since in MT Rhulad really didn't have any powers outside of repeated resurrection. And we since we saw several beings (including many humans) slice Rhulad to bits it's logical that we'd not expect him to stand up well to our enraged super-beings.

All that said...does anyone else get the sneaking suspicion that Erikson is gonna surprise us? That Rhulad's not gonna be just slightly stronger than he was in MT, but that he'll be DRAMATICALLY stronger than he was in MT. I'm not sure of the exact timeline, but we're talking at least a year and possibly more since we last saw him. Over that time period we've seen several characters (including Karsa) power up in a major way. Nobody would confuse the Karsa that got thrashed by the FA in HoC to be even remotely like the Karsa that's now on the boat headed for Lether.

Could Rhulad have a similar growth? Could he now be well on the road to ascension, if not already there? If the theory is that being Shadow's spear is what gave Trull the power to face off with Icarium, just how much power would be accrued by possibly being the king of the newly sanction House of Chains (remember, in MT I don't believe Paran had yet sanctioned the new house, so the followers of the CG like Rhulad may not have yet been able to ascend yet back then? Who knows). Do you believe Rhulad might shock us all, and if so how powerful do you expect him to be?

[sarlinspellweaver]

Convergence seems likely, and when that happens things usually get blown up, and people usually die...

I think at the moment I'm favouring an Erikson surprise moment. Every time I've thought I've got a character sussed in the past, I've been proved wrong. Karsa has got to be the best example of that.

Your comment about Rhulad being on the road to ascendancy interested me. Certainly having a new ascendant that was allied with the Crippled God would be pretty unsettling, but on the other hand given that some form of death seems to be necessary for ascendancy, how would he achieve it if he is always being resurrected. Perhaps that's the danger: if he is slain outright, inspite of his resurrection powers he becomes an ascendant - either way the Crippled God would win, which sounds remarkably like something he would enjoy setting up. Having said that, 'tis all in the realms of speculation.

[fan_83]

rhulad would have a massive power boost by now.. cos after the events where he was kebabed by brys he has died hundreds of time since then adn after each time he has died he has came back much stronger.. so i would guess hes better than brys at this point in time..

but when compared to iccy or karsa, hes still toast

[PannionDude]

I think he would probably be toast if he fought them...once. I'm not sure its possible for the same guy to beat Rhulad twice.

Then again, as Twilight says "There have been So Many . Rhulad may be more skilled than Karsa by now.

Still, if he faces genocide mode Icarium I think he'll be slaughtered. That sand/wind/keening thing seems unbeatable.

[bwgan]

Ah, but is SE messing with our minds again. This(?) fight is being built up so much, but will it just be a cover for something else and will Rhu just fizzle out...like Dujeck and WJ. We must know by now that no character, no matter how awesome is safe, (or even secure in a glorious death) in the Malazan world!

[Dark Mac]

fan_83 said:

rhulad would have a massive power boost by now.. cos after the events where he was kebabed by brys he has died hundreds of time since then adn after each time he has died he has came back much stronger.. so i would guess hes better than brys at this point in time..

but when compared to iccy or karsa, hes still toast

It's only said that he fought hundreds. I doubt he died more than once or twice since MT, since it would have to be against a swordsman around the skill of Brys or better, and there aren't many of those.

As for whether a warrior could beat him twice: I'm quite sure that if Iron Bars or Serenity had fought him again in MT he still would've lost badly.

He might be able to beat Karsa by now, but probably not Icarium. Icarium's practically invincible. And even if he's more skilled than Karsa, Karsa's got the surprise factor going for him.

[Agraba]

The Crippled God needs more ascendants. He's lost Poliel, and now it's just a bunch of gods against him.

By the way, there probably isn't going to be a traditional one on one arena fight, especially since it's been well anticipated. Something will go wrong.

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It's only said that he fought hundreds. I doubt he died more than once or twice since MT, since it would have to be against a swordsman around the skill of Brys or better, and there aren't many of those.

Nothing implies that every skill below Brys is inherently below Rhulad as well. The fact that Rhulad was beaten by Brys doesn't bring him up to Brys's level. It just makes him a little bit more well practiced.

[Aptorian]

Thank you for bringing this thread up. I totally agree with you. I think Rhulad is being largely overlooked, a dangerous flaw, by the readers. Rhulad was a whelp when he followed his brothers to the ice wastes. When he gets his neck wrung by Iron bars (I love him) the Awoved says Rhulad might be able to, maybe, even give skinner a run for the money, in some years time. Then, I believe this is after Iron Bars, he gets killed another three times by Serenity (not the ship), that Preda and Brys.
By the time Rhulad faces Brys he should already be formiddable. It's only because Brys is freaking blinding when using a sword, that Rhulad is defeated. Remember, and I think this passage is underrated, that Brys fought and defeated the guardian of several gods of the sea. With ease!
Also The CG remarks that, with every death, not only has Rhulad gained greater skill with the sword, he's also gained greater bulk. This isn't just from carying the coins around I think.

On top of this if you believe Twillight and FW, there's been hundreds of fights and many deaths. Lets say he's only died 10-20 times. Maybe he's died many more times, maybe not.
I Imagine Rhulad being some kind of awe inspiring beast of death by now. Hulking and dominating in musclemass yet terrifyinly quick (the preda on the bridge thought him quick already back then) almost like Karsa. But his proficensy with the sword will be even more terrible. When Rhulad "saws" through that Preda on the bridge (damn I need to look his name up) the blade is said to move with almost a will of its own. I think that Brys or Dassem would be facing a nightmare by now.

[Agraba]

That argument, apt, could prove that Rhulad may be able to beat Karsa, but his fighting style is still mundane, which means that he'll never come close to a pissed off Icarium. His fighting is not a mortal fighting style, it's an Azath curse that makes him a preternatural machine powered by sorcery. As long as Icarium is kept sad, rather than mad, Rhulad will kill him.

[Aptorian]

Oh wait, here's another one. About Rhulads Frame of mind.
He'll likely be madder then a Dhenrabi on a dalhonese fishhook, and quite crazy to boot!

All through Midnight Tides Rhulads madness is seen as a negative. Its quite likely that SE's point of wiew is that it stays that way, but through Rhulads madness, thoughts and acts of brilliance seems to escape. Who knows if some kind of Panion Seer'esque intelligence has evolved in Rhulad aided by the CG during the year plus that's passed?

Have i mentioned that I think Rhulad is great...

[Aptorian]

Agraba said:

That argument, apt, could prove that Rhulad may be able to beat Karsa, but his fighting style is still mundane, which means that he'll never come close to a pissed off Icarium. His fighting is not a mortal fighting style, it's an Azath curse that makes him a preternatural machine powered by sorcery. As long as Icarium is kept sad, rather than mad, Rhulad will kill him.

True, I also think that Icarium is levels above any acendant or god. But here's two thoughts about Icariums Role. Keep in mind that there's also four books left in the series. I don't think that Iccy, Karsa or Rhulad are leaving any time soon.

1: Maybe Icariums big showdown of epic proportions of devastation wont lay waste to Lether? Maybe SE has something else in mind for Icarium. It's pretty obvious at this moment that unless Rhulad gets some serious CG-steroids he would get obliterated by Icarium. It's more or less implied that the gods, at least the young ones, fear Icarium. Note that they've never tried a chaining of the Jhag. It's also implied that the CG can't be bested by the Old Gods hence the chaining. WHAT IF ICARIUM IS MENT TO KILL THE CRIPPLED GOD?!

2: The Eres'al pulled a rabbit out of the hat with Icarium. If the Eres really is as hot as people predict. Remember that Rhulad implies to hannan mosag that the nerek, worshippers of Eres, are to be left alone, lest they wake something nasty (Like the Eres?). Maybe she really cured Icariums amnesea. Maybe he now knows everything he's done. But when she did that, what if she at the same time removed his rage. What if Icarium now has lost his ability to turn into the destroyer of pretty much anything that offends his taste? That wouldn't have to make Icarium useless, just a bit more challenged. But it would change the whole, I'm Icarium, hear me roar scenario when he faces Rhulad... Who I predict will pawn Karsa... Even though I love the big guy.

[Agraba]

Well we know that Karsa can beat Icarium head on when he doesn't have his rage, so if that's the case, Icarium is screwed.

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Keep in mind that there's also four books left in the series. I don't think that Iccy, Karsa or Rhulad are leaving any time soon.

That's a pretty sordid statement about Erikson, that he won't kill off a character before the end of the series. I think it's very likely that one of them is going to die. Besides, it's not like they're the only three. There's tons of characters.

[QuickBenDelat]

I dont tink either Iccy, Karsa or Rhuald is going to die.
Sure Iccy and karsa can probably beat the s*** out of Rhuald but thats it. If Rhuald is gone for good, how is the CG going to munipilate the events that takes place on Wu. Shaik reborn is going to get away from his controll, eventually. He will be left with nothing.
I think that its going to be Trull that kills off Rhuald later on in the series.

[Dark Mac]

Agraba said:

Nothing implies that every skill below Brys is inherently below Rhulad as well. The fact that Rhulad was beaten by Brys doesn't bring him up to Brys's level. It just makes him a little bit more well practiced.

I know that, but Moroch Nevath was supposed to be almost as good as Brys, and before Rhulad died against him, they were of equal skill. You'll notice that Brys lost two fingers in the fight against Rhulad, so the disparity wasn't as great as it might have seemed. Also, I said that it would take someone as good as Brys to kill Rhulad...by that, I meant that Rhulad would still be not quite as good as Brys. By now, however, he definitely should be.

I do think how long Rhulad will survive is an interesting question, though. Personally, I think he's going down in RG, but he could certainly survive to book 10.

[lfex]

I don't think Karsa is going to die in RG. Too much was made of his plans of returning to the Teblors. Icarium also seems to have a role to play in future events. On the other hand, Rhulad can easily be eliminated in RG, but I don't think it will be karsa or icarium who does him in. That is Withal's task.

[fan_83]

dark mac: brys lost 2 fingers due to the fact that he is aiming to disable instead of kill, it would have been easier to kill rhulad instead of disabling him so.. but with rhulad now having died plenty more times, i would guess he would be able to beat brys now and maybe karsa aswell..

calm iccy is a pushover,, but i am waiting for rhulad to piss iccy off and get slaughtered to pieces again and again..

maybe thats what SE has in mind for us.. the way to keep iccy busy for hte rest of eternity., continous slaughter of rhulad

[tiam]

karsas definitely gonna have the horde on Genabackis storyline. its being built up too much for him not to gp back and conquer it. Although the brood army will be there and also the tiste who i think will use a full unveiling against the teblor horde. thats the only way they can be killed. elder magic and ots of it

[polishgenius]

I can see Iccy taking out Rhulad and then letting Karsa kill him - remember, he only went for Karsa the first time because he saw his bloody past. And now he knows his own.
Also, though Rhulad is probably more powerful than he was by a fair bit, I think Karsa is building up to Iccy levels of power - looking at the reactions of people, especially those who appear able to sense power levels, like the Jaghut and the tree, or the D'ivers. And the fact that he killed the Deragoth. And a Short-tail by himself, though he took a while. I think he's going to replace the dead Toblakai gods - or maybe he already has, I think their description underwhelmed a bit since we'd already seen him, and he's got better even since then.
Also, one of the cards in the House of Chains terrifies Hood (talking to Quick, in MoI, he mentions a dread power) - I think it's Karsa. Though it might be Rhulad. Definitely one of the two.

[tiam]

id say karsa isnt levelling iccys level of power. i dont think ne1s close yet.

As for hoods fears id say either karsa or rhulad aswell. probably Karsa with all that talk in HOC about when did hood last know a rival.

I also believe that if rhulad has foughts 100s of champions then its likely hes advanced considerably. also i beleive ne1 that he kills he gains there skills.

[Aptorian]

tiam said:

I also believe that if rhulad has foughts 100s of champions then its likely hes advanced considerably. also i beleive ne1 that he kills he gains there skills.

Anyone he kills or anyone that kills him? Everytime he dies he gets better, that we know. We've not heard of him attaining the powers of his victims.
Also I doubt he gains the skill of the people that kill him. Otherwise he would have to be as terrible as the FA Serenity that killed him and that waterdemon guarding the gods in the hold of the sea.