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I definitely did not want to complain about the lack of technology in Eriksons novels. Quite the opposite. I think I would not enjoy these books as much as I do, if there were artillery battles or even worse cities getting annihilated by nukes. If I want that, I can turn to some SciFi or war literature.
My reason for opening this thread was that Steven Erikson himself seems to be thinking about this problem and pointed at it in TBH. This just made me a little curious about his motivations.
technology vs. magic
#22 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 16 May 2006 - 01:14 PM
Well, there's the political thing too. There is no modern organised wellfare state too. So it's like it used to be, only the rich get the best, in this case high denul. Who needs medical technology if denul does the fix...
There are evidences of human tech advancement. The Silanda seems an older model of Malazan war ships. There are other things, Malaclypse mentioned them. but as a matter of fact, they only lack planes. At some points they can do more than us with magic, so that creates the fantasy setting. On top of that, it excludes a reasonable discussion because evrything is debated in our current IRL setting.
There are evidences of human tech advancement. The Silanda seems an older model of Malazan war ships. There are other things, Malaclypse mentioned them. but as a matter of fact, they only lack planes. At some points they can do more than us with magic, so that creates the fantasy setting. On top of that, it excludes a reasonable discussion because evrything is debated in our current IRL setting.
#23
Dark Mac 
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Posted 16 May 2006 - 03:32 PM
But how does magic negate the need for a printing press? There is no "Warren of Paper".
They don't start until fairly late in the series, and the artillery is fairly limited, but they're still quite cool.
Cause said:
artillery battles in wheel of time? I dont recall any
They don't start until fairly late in the series, and the artillery is fairly limited, but they're still quite cool.
#24
Malaclypse
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Posted 16 May 2006 - 05:33 PM
[quote=Dark Mac]But how does magic negate the need for a printing press? There is no "Warren of Paper".
Better to ask, why is there no imperative to teach a significant proportion of Malazan societies to read and write? which would create the intellectual, social and economic climate that might support the development of a printing press. I don't understand precisely how and why the printing press came to be in our history, so I'll refrain from making any strong pronouncements (something that you amateur anthropologists out there might want to consider), but my impression is that it wasn't 'discovered' in isolation. There were concerted efforts to invent such a thing because the social and economic conditions demanded it. Also, the Chinese were quite happy with block printing and didn't bother looking into anything to replace it until the printing press came along fully realized iirc. People seem to have trouble understanding that technological 'progress' has only been the relentless machine of innovation that we see now for a infintesimally tiny part of our history, dependent on very specific causes and conditions which somebody else can go into if they are so motivated
There's virtually no reason to expect that any society outside of our modern Earthly examples would necessarily pursue technological advancement with the unbridled zeal that we've exhibited since the Industrial Revolution, let alone a society where magic is readily available. It seems to me that any major explosion of technological development is spawned by one or both of two things, intense need or intense competition. If those neither of those are present and/or easier, quicker more obvious avenues exist to satisfy a given societies needs, they will pour their energies into those other things. Specifically, I'm sure there's a mage on Wu somewhere who is able to enchant a quill to take dictation and/or make copies of existing texts. Further, if the common folk could read, maybe there'd be a market for a whole lot of these hypothetical quills and that's a lot cooler than some ugly printing press, if you ask me
/rant
Better to ask, why is there no imperative to teach a significant proportion of Malazan societies to read and write? which would create the intellectual, social and economic climate that might support the development of a printing press. I don't understand precisely how and why the printing press came to be in our history, so I'll refrain from making any strong pronouncements (something that you amateur anthropologists out there might want to consider), but my impression is that it wasn't 'discovered' in isolation. There were concerted efforts to invent such a thing because the social and economic conditions demanded it. Also, the Chinese were quite happy with block printing and didn't bother looking into anything to replace it until the printing press came along fully realized iirc. People seem to have trouble understanding that technological 'progress' has only been the relentless machine of innovation that we see now for a infintesimally tiny part of our history, dependent on very specific causes and conditions which somebody else can go into if they are so motivated
There's virtually no reason to expect that any society outside of our modern Earthly examples would necessarily pursue technological advancement with the unbridled zeal that we've exhibited since the Industrial Revolution, let alone a society where magic is readily available. It seems to me that any major explosion of technological development is spawned by one or both of two things, intense need or intense competition. If those neither of those are present and/or easier, quicker more obvious avenues exist to satisfy a given societies needs, they will pour their energies into those other things. Specifically, I'm sure there's a mage on Wu somewhere who is able to enchant a quill to take dictation and/or make copies of existing texts. Further, if the common folk could read, maybe there'd be a market for a whole lot of these hypothetical quills and that's a lot cooler than some ugly printing press, if you ask me /rant
#25
Abyss
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Posted 16 May 2006 - 05:40 PM
The main point, i believe, is that civilizations tend to self-destruct. Whether advanced by tech or magic, sooner or later something goes wrong and then poof, it's sticks v. stones again.
Kallor nuked his own empire. The KC resurrected the KN subspecies and doomed themselves. The First Human Empire went all shapeshifty nuts. Leth finally picked on someone who fought back better. The Edur cut a deal with the CG and are falling into barbarism.... you don't need an Icarium going nuts to ruin everything when you can do it yourself.
The point is that an Empire founded on conquest eventually causes it's own demise, and this cycle has been going on on the planet for many, many, MANY thousands of years.
- Abyss, makes mental note to stock up on water and canned foods.
Kallor nuked his own empire. The KC resurrected the KN subspecies and doomed themselves. The First Human Empire went all shapeshifty nuts. Leth finally picked on someone who fought back better. The Edur cut a deal with the CG and are falling into barbarism.... you don't need an Icarium going nuts to ruin everything when you can do it yourself.
The point is that an Empire founded on conquest eventually causes it's own demise, and this cycle has been going on on the planet for many, many, MANY thousands of years.
- Abyss, makes mental note to stock up on water and canned foods.
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#26
tiam
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Posted 16 May 2006 - 07:32 PM
in comparison our civilisation has only really experienced massive growth (computers etc) in the last 100 years. id say the malzans were in the middle ages or medieval times. it has more to do with education than any thing. in recent years weve become more educated and therefore more ordinary people have come up ith more inventions. we have more scientists,authors and historians now than ever
#27
Dark Mac
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 12:19 AM
Malaclypse said:
Better to ask, why is there no imperative to teach a significant proportion of Malazan societies to read and write? which would create the intellectual, social and economic climate that might support the development of a printing press. I don't understand precisely how and why the printing press came to be in our history, so I'll refrain from making any strong pronouncements (something that you amateur anthropologists out there might want to consider), but my impression is that it wasn't 'discovered' in isolation. There were concerted efforts to invent such a thing because the social and economic conditions demanded it. Also, the Chinese were quite happy with block printing and didn't bother looking into anything to replace it until the printing press came along fully realized iirc. People seem to have trouble understanding that technological 'progress' has only been the relentless machine of innovation that we see now for a infintesimally tiny part of our history, dependent on very specific causes and conditions which somebody else can go into if they are so motivated There's virtually no reason to expect that any society outside of our modern Earthly examples would necessarily pursue technological advancement with the unbridled zeal that we've exhibited since the Industrial Revolution, let alone a society where magic is readily available. It seems to me that any major explosion of technological development is spawned by one or both of two things, intense need or intense competition. If those neither of those are present and/or easier, quicker more obvious avenues exist to satisfy a given societies needs, they will pour their energies into those other things. Specifically, I'm sure there's a mage on Wu somewhere who is able to enchant a quill to take dictation and/or make copies of existing texts. Further, if the common folk could read, maybe there'd be a market for a whole lot of these hypothetical quills and that's a lot cooler than some ugly printing press, if you ask me
/rant
There's virtually no reason to expect that any society outside of our modern Earthly examples would necessarily pursue technological advancement with the unbridled zeal that we've exhibited since the Industrial Revolution, let alone a society where magic is readily available. It seems to me that any major explosion of technological development is spawned by one or both of two things, intense need or intense competition. If those neither of those are present and/or easier, quicker more obvious avenues exist to satisfy a given societies needs, they will pour their energies into those other things. Specifically, I'm sure there's a mage on Wu somewhere who is able to enchant a quill to take dictation and/or make copies of existing texts. Further, if the common folk could read, maybe there'd be a market for a whole lot of these hypothetical quills and that's a lot cooler than some ugly printing press, if you ask me /rant
As I recall, there was no particular drive for the printing press in our world. And IIRC, can't most people in the Malazan world read? I don't recall running into anyone illiterate, but that could just be my poor memory at work.
And there have been printing presses in the Malazan world before, just not now. Icarium discovers all those useless books at one point, and it's pretty obvious that a civilization with the printing press created them.
#28
Malaclypse
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:11 AM
Dark Mac said:
As I recall, there was no particular drive for the printing press in our world. And IIRC, can't most people in the Malazan world read? I don't recall running into anyone illiterate, but that could just be my poor memory at work.
You can disagree that the invention of the printing press came after the increase in demand for reading material following a significant increase in the proportion of literate people in European society if you like but if you're genuinely curious I suggest you do a bit of research. I'm not sure if the same is true of Chinese developments in printing technology but they were a different kettle of fish altogether, with a much larger population so even the scholars were numerous enough to warrant mass production of texts, I would think.
re: literacy in the Malazan world...SE doesn't make a point of saying whether or not most people are literate or not. However, given SE's background in anthropology and history in general combined with the way in which he's presented the various cultures in the MBotF, it would be incredibly inconsistent for literacy to be widespread. It's rarely mentioned or an issue made of it because the default condition is illiteracy. IIRC, there's a mage somewhere in the books who is illiterate, but I may be misremembering that.
Dark Mac said:
And there have been printing presses in the Malazan world before, just not now. Icarium discovers all those useless books at one point, and it's pretty obvious that a civilization with the printing press created them.
Obvious? How so? Really, I'm curious. IIRC, and I do, Icarium states that each of those books cost a fortune to produce, suggesting an incredibly wealthy society with a lot of time on their hands. Mass-produced books from a printing press have always been about cheap and fast. Mass-produced anything for that matter. It's handmade stuff that's expensive, think Illuminated manuscripts
#29
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 02:33 AM
Ummm, I am a High Mage of the Warren of Paper.
#30 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 17 May 2006 - 08:08 AM
I am taking a focus on Lether. It was economical well advanced with manufacturing and even having a kind of a stock exchange. From our (earthian) view it is definitely hard to believe that they did not invent a printing press or did not have the need of it. Life there was driven by economy/wealth and not entirely by magic. And, what strikes me most is that they did not invent any explosives … gunpowder on earth e.g. was invented in the very dark ages (around 1300 AD), and Lether is much more advanced. And as magic seems to be less relevant in normal life there than property this feels very strange.
#31 Guest_Danyah_*
Posted 17 May 2006 - 09:21 AM
As for the printing press, the rennaissance was on it's way, an both intellectuals and the church were happy with the printing press. Though the church preferred it to be used for mass printing bibles...
#32
Malaclypse
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:24 AM
Daemon said:
I am taking a focus on Lether. It was economical well advanced with manufacturing and even having a kind of a stock exchange. From our (earthian) view it is definitely hard to believe that they did not invent a printing press or did not have the need of it. Life there was driven by economy/wealth and not entirely by magic. And, what strikes me most is that they did not invent any explosives … gunpowder on earth e.g. was invented in the very dark ages (around 1300 AD), and Lether is much more advanced. And as magic seems to be less relevant in normal life there than property this feels very strange.
All right, one last go round then. If those with a lot of money/power (ie., elites) aren't interested in funding a particular endeavour, technological or otherwise, it is much less likely to be successful. If there's one thing to be learned about elites, it's that they want, first and foremost, to remain elites, which almost always means doing what they can to keep the non-elites (much more numerous by definition) in their subordinate position. This is why the invention of the printing press, in particular, must follow from major societal change, imo. These kinds of changes are not a necessary consequence of the passage of time, people do what works and elites will hang on to each and every privilege as long as they can manage it. First of all, if only the nobility, the wealthy and scholars are taught how to read and write, there is no driving need to mass-produce books. None of the societies we've encountered on Wu have any need to provide a basic education to all or even a significant portion of their populations. Lao Tzu was not being innovative when he suggested that rulers keep their people ignorant and fed to ensure a well-functioning state. Roughly two thousand years later the Romans added entertainment to the mix in the face of an overcrowded and unruly citizenry in the capital. Bread and circuses, but no mass literacy
The Kingdom of Lether had/has a complex economy yes, but it's in the hands of an elite few. The common folk are not reading the morning paper or playing the Tolls.
Manufacturing? reference? even if so, the existence of manufacturing doesn't necessitate mass literacy or aggressive technological research. The major Earth example of high civilization with stagnant technology is of course, China. Think of Lether as like the Chinese if it helps you to understand
Gunpowder requires certain ingredients that may not be avaialble on Wu. For instance, saltpeter may be nonexistent or undiscovered. Also, the Chinese discovered gunpowder first and abandoned it as barbaric to use in warfare, so they reserved it for fireworks
Also, if a Monarch, Noble or General is thinking about how to increase the effectiveness of hir armed forces through something other than numbers and training, there is no better option than mages (edit: or dragons, demons and similarly powerful species) if they're available. In combat, gunpowder was only employed in large, cumbersome cannon for a long time before a handheld version was developed. Such contraptions would be easily targeted and destroyed by a reasonably competent battle-mage, nullifying all the time and resources spent to build them. Anyway, I'm bored with this now. Bye
#33
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 01:43 PM
Malaclypse said:
Gunpowder requires certain ingredients that may not be avaialble on Wu. For instance, saltpeter may be nonexistent or undiscovered. Also, the Chinese discovered gunpowder first and abandoned it as barbaric to use in warfare, so they reserved it for fireworks 
Also, if a Monarch, Noble or General is thinking about how to increase the effectiveness of hir armed forces through something other than numbers and training, there is no better option than mages (edit: or dragons, demons and similarly powerful species) if they're available. In combat, gunpowder was only employed in large, cumbersome cannon for a long time before a handheld version was developed. Such contraptions would be easily targeted and destroyed by a reasonably competent battle-mage, nullifying all the time and resources spent to build them.
Also, if a Monarch, Noble or General is thinking about how to increase the effectiveness of hir armed forces through something other than numbers and training, there is no better option than mages (edit: or dragons, demons and similarly powerful species) if they're available. In combat, gunpowder was only employed in large, cumbersome cannon for a long time before a handheld version was developed. Such contraptions would be easily targeted and destroyed by a reasonably competent battle-mage, nullifying all the time and resources spent to build them.I see things a little different here.
The Monranth definitely have the means to built explosives. So the ingredients should be available on Wu.
And who says that cumbersome cannons would be the first step? As we see in the books the Malazans have found their own way to use explosives in a very, very effective way making their foes tremble. As I mentioned before, even SE granted this point validity, by letting Corabb think about the awefulness of the Malazan weapons and asking himself which army could be a match for them?
#34
Dark Mac
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 02:33 PM
Malaclypse said:
You can disagree that the invention of the printing press came after the increase in demand for reading material following a significant increase in the proportion of literate people in European society if you like but if you're genuinely curious I suggest you do a bit of research. I'm not sure if the same is true of Chinese developments in printing technology but they were a different kettle of fish altogether, with a much larger population so even the scholars were numerous enough to warrant mass production of texts, I would think.
Literacy in Europe was pretty abysmal at the time of the printing press's invention. How would people have learned to read, anyway?
Quote
Obvious? How so? Really, I'm curious. IIRC, and I do, Icarium states that each of those books cost a fortune to produce, suggesting an incredibly wealthy society with a lot of time on their hands. Mass-produced books from a printing press have always been about cheap and fast. Mass-produced anything for that matter. It's handmade stuff that's expensive, think Illuminated manuscripts
Well, that was just how I understood it. Icarium didn't understand the idea of a printing press, so he just assumed that the books were very expensive.
#35
fan_83
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 04:33 PM
shadowlord: thats because corabb side don;t have anymore mages..
any half competent high mage will be able to quest, divine out the location of the carriers of the ammo and pay them a visit with a fireball.. chain reaction will be enough to wipe out the whole lot
as far as we can see, only the malaz and moranth use ammo and thats sparingly as to not give the enemy mage time to find out how to counteract them.
its not a full on assault on a battlefield when both side has full complements of mages..
any misfire on either side, if both side has plenty of moranth will result in a spectacular explosion killing half an army
any half competent high mage will be able to quest, divine out the location of the carriers of the ammo and pay them a visit with a fireball.. chain reaction will be enough to wipe out the whole lot
as far as we can see, only the malaz and moranth use ammo and thats sparingly as to not give the enemy mage time to find out how to counteract them.
its not a full on assault on a battlefield when both side has full complements of mages..
any misfire on either side, if both side has plenty of moranth will result in a spectacular explosion killing half an army
#36 Guest_Daemon_*
Posted 17 May 2006 - 06:34 PM
fan_83:
But that's just it. If both sides have the same power and strike at each other, the result will be annihilation. It's like in the Cold War: Everyone feared a confrontation because both sides had such an arsenal of nukes.
And the Monranth munition gives the Malazans definitely an strategic advantage, maybe not in the open field, where magic could counteract, true, but the explosives are mostly used by sappers, preparing attacks. Just look at Darujhistan, where they mined whole streets. Wasn't necessary in the end but could have been decisive.
But that's just it. If both sides have the same power and strike at each other, the result will be annihilation. It's like in the Cold War: Everyone feared a confrontation because both sides had such an arsenal of nukes.
And the Monranth munition gives the Malazans definitely an strategic advantage, maybe not in the open field, where magic could counteract, true, but the explosives are mostly used by sappers, preparing attacks. Just look at Darujhistan, where they mined whole streets. Wasn't necessary in the end but could have been decisive.
#37
fan_83
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Posted 17 May 2006 - 11:26 PM
yeah, and if the attacking army has history fighting against the malaz, do you really think they wouldnt divine for the location of the traps?
the ammo is good for a couple of time, but after that all good commanders will adjsut and plan accordingly to take them out and thus turning it into a liability
and the moranth ammo is too unstable to be used and transported in bulk without being vulnerable,, i mean if you drop a crate of cussers on the ground you can say goodbye to anyone and naything within 100 yards of it,
cussers are good for the special forces but not for mainstream use..
the mages iwll make them a target esp after htey find out about its explosive potential when used close to magic..
near the start of a battle, have a couple of mage find the cussers pack and relocate them near the enemy high mage.. accidentally drop a fireball on it when the enemy high mage is engaged in battle...
kaboom... there goes the enemy army
the ammo is good for a couple of time, but after that all good commanders will adjsut and plan accordingly to take them out and thus turning it into a liability
and the moranth ammo is too unstable to be used and transported in bulk without being vulnerable,, i mean if you drop a crate of cussers on the ground you can say goodbye to anyone and naything within 100 yards of it,
cussers are good for the special forces but not for mainstream use..
the mages iwll make them a target esp after htey find out about its explosive potential when used close to magic..
near the start of a battle, have a couple of mage find the cussers pack and relocate them near the enemy high mage.. accidentally drop a fireball on it when the enemy high mage is engaged in battle...
kaboom... there goes the enemy army
#38
Dark Mac
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Posted 18 May 2006 - 01:56 AM
fan_83 said:
shadowlord: thats because corabb side don;t have anymore mages..
any half competent high mage will be able to quest, divine out the location of the carriers of the ammo and pay them a visit with a fireball.. chain reaction will be enough to wipe out the whole lot
as far as we can see, only the malaz and moranth use ammo and thats sparingly as to not give the enemy mage time to find out how to counteract them.
its not a full on assault on a battlefield when both side has full complements of mages..
any misfire on either side, if both side has plenty of moranth will result in a spectacular explosion killing half an army
any half competent high mage will be able to quest, divine out the location of the carriers of the ammo and pay them a visit with a fireball.. chain reaction will be enough to wipe out the whole lot
as far as we can see, only the malaz and moranth use ammo and thats sparingly as to not give the enemy mage time to find out how to counteract them.
its not a full on assault on a battlefield when both side has full complements of mages..
any misfire on either side, if both side has plenty of moranth will result in a spectacular explosion killing half an army
1. Mages in the Malazan world can use fireballs? Say what?
2. We never see any mages questing to discover the location of enemy weapons. You're just making up this ability (along with the fireballs. Have you been reading too much Goodkind?).
#39
Mortal Sword
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Posted 18 May 2006 - 03:11 AM
History has showen that some of the greatest advances come about during war. Thats when man is at his most ingenious. You are slowly seeing improvements... and they have been popping up, but you have to remember it takes a chain of events to bring some of this about.
Note: Fiddlers crossbows are improving..... making it possible to launch not only cussers now but also sharpers and what ever other moranth munitions he has. SE goes into alot of detail about the new crossbow, showing the improvements, not only in the cradles, but the strings and the mechanism.
Note: The New Set of Grey Swords (small thing... how did quick ben recoqnize that grey sword...anyways) They have those katamaran troop carries, unlike anything else seen on the oceans, necessity allows for invention.
Note: Open warrens and moranth munitions dont really go together well... look out Jaghut Tryants.
Eventually someone will reverse engineer the moranth munitions... when they have time and arent too busy killing everyone and anyone.
Karsa's new companion is inventing things. LOL, maybe shes gonna be the MacGuyver to Karas, help him out with a flint piece of twine and maybe bone fetish and make him a throne all for himself to sit on.
Note: Fiddlers crossbows are improving..... making it possible to launch not only cussers now but also sharpers and what ever other moranth munitions he has. SE goes into alot of detail about the new crossbow, showing the improvements, not only in the cradles, but the strings and the mechanism.
Note: The New Set of Grey Swords (small thing... how did quick ben recoqnize that grey sword...anyways) They have those katamaran troop carries, unlike anything else seen on the oceans, necessity allows for invention.
Note: Open warrens and moranth munitions dont really go together well... look out Jaghut Tryants.
Eventually someone will reverse engineer the moranth munitions... when they have time and arent too busy killing everyone and anyone.
Karsa's new companion is inventing things. LOL, maybe shes gonna be the MacGuyver to Karas, help him out with a flint piece of twine and maybe bone fetish and make him a throne all for himself to sit on.
#40
fan_83
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Posted 18 May 2006 - 10:20 AM
dark mac: read gotm in the beginning one of the high mages fired out a fireball towards moon spawn, i think it was akrony's or maybe tay
shamans have the power to divine the location of anyone and most stuff in SE world, in fact ,a card reader should have the ability to divine the location of the traps if they choose to..
i am not making things up but merely picking things up that are already there
shamans have the power to divine the location of anyone and most stuff in SE world, in fact ,a card reader should have the ability to divine the location of the traps if they choose to..
i am not making things up but merely picking things up that are already there
