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The four Black Dragons in GOTM?

#21 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 08:21 AM

errr the condors should be more powerful than the edur mages.. they dont suffer the melting probblem faced by the edur mages upon extended usage of cg's magic.. the condor are demon in bird form so they don;t face the problem.
and the letharii mages are wiped out by the mages which we donot know how powerful they are due to difference in magic systems.. holds versus warren..

being an eleint do have to mean something.. its the biggest and most powerful animal out there.. look at the 3 dragons that went through KT.. the liosans don;t even try to chase after them..
and maybe they don;t use SD
but thats no indication that they are crap and can;t stand up to a couple of edur mages

monoch: mosag did prepare for a ritual against the ceda. he used the prince nad the queen as a shield remember... he was prepared when going agaisnt the ceda..

i don;t have moi with me so i cna;t look up the usage of magic by the birdies... but i do recall orfantel going up against multiple condors and isn;t doing too badly
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#22 Guest_Daemon_*

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:06 AM

Dark Mac said:

fan, there's no evidence that being Eleint grants any power at all. All the Eleint Soletaken we know of are powerful figures otherwise as well, and we've never seen any of them use Starvald Demelain in combat - and why wouldn't they, if it's so great?

Starvald Demelain is the most powerful warren. It was the first warren and was the mother of the other warrens (except for chaos maybe, if that is a warren at all …) The Eleint helped K’rul to shape the warrens with their power from SD. So the Eleint are definitely some of the most powerful creatures in the world. I am not sure respectively I do not believe that the soletaken have the same power and I think they cannot access SD (at least not at full scale).
Maybe I missed that, but anyway, any idea of the origin of the soletaken Eleint? Ok, Rake and Osserc drank directly from tiams blood, Scabby is said to have killed Sorrit for his blood, but where got the others their power from?
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#23 User is offline   Paran 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 10:46 AM

Actually, I believe that Chaos is the most powerful warren, simply due to its nature - uncontrollable.
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#24 Guest_Daemon_*

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 10:58 AM

Paran said:

Actually, I believe that Chaos is the most powreful warren, simply due to its nature - uncontrollable.


If it is a warren ... I myself doubt that, as it does not fit in any system of magical order (see the name?). But I have to admit, I really have no idea about giving a definition for "warren".
Concerning power be assured that SD at least rivals chaos for it is the foundation of magical order ... (wasn't there a thread on this ? :) )

EDIT: I really should stop getting so obsessed with this warren stuff ... someday it will make my head explode ...
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#25 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:01 PM

@ Illuyankas: at no time did the condors drive off the Great Ravens using sorcery, or this would have revealed their power and the Malazans would have taken necessary steps ahead. They were driven off by pure size difference and the Great Ravens were being cautious so as not to reveal the alliance's plans or location. Besides, their role was primarily to observe.

I seem to recall that Orfantal was under heavy fire. Even when Korlat joined him, they were hard pressed.

As for the warped thing...there's something to the particular structure of those condors. A demon soul in bodies that were specially bred for that purpose. There is a degree of separation that might just buffer the damage done to the Edur warlock whose body and soul are one. Think about it....why need bodies in particular?

As for the Letheri mages....the trouble was their array and the fact that they didn't expect what was coming. It was out of control. It destroyed a tower where one of the Letherii sorcerers was weaving from....it was Chaotic AND chaotic. As for the Holds v. warren thing, the Letherii conjured the power of the Empty Hold. The detonation of the sorceries was too much.
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#26 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:30 PM

The edur mages weren't meant to use Chaos. The condors were. It's not a question of power level, it's a question of adaptability. Yes, the Edur took out Apsalar, but based on TB, i don't think she was quite at the height of her powers just then.

Korlat in dragon form survived the fight with Raest. No idea if soletaken draconean translates to a power in Andii form, but hey, she survived that chaos-powered hit from Kallor.

Rake and Ruin's speed and strength in Andii form (ie: fighting the Galayn lord and the Hounds, or the tarthenal gods) may be related to their draconic blood. The 'normal', albeit untrained Andii on Avalii didn't seem to be that impressive against the Edur. 'Trained' Andii went up against the Kell Hunters in the MT prologue and were decimated, even with sorcery on their side.

All of which is to say, a 'normal' Tiste may be superiour to a 'normal' human, but not by all that much without sorcery as an aid. A draconean Tiste may be more impressive.

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#27 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 09:45 PM

[QUOTE=fan_83]errr the condors should be more powerful than the edur mages.. they dont suffer the melting probblem faced by the edur mages upon extended usage of cg's magic.. the condor are demon in bird form so they don;t face the problem.
and the letharii mages are wiped out by the mages which we donot know how powerful they are due to difference in magic systems.. holds versus warren..[/QUOTE]

*sigh* the Condors didn't take any damage because they were weaker. It takes great power to cause damage to the body.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Daemon]Starvald Demelain is the most powerful warren. It was the first warren and was the mother of the other warrens (except for chaos maybe, if that is a warren at all …) The Eleint helped K’rul to shape the warrens with their power from SD. So the Eleint are definitely some of the most powerful creatures in the world. I am not sure respectively I do not believe that the soletaken have the same power and I think they cannot access SD (at least not at full scale).
Maybe I missed that, but anyway, any idea of the origin of the soletaken Eleint? Ok, Rake and Osserc drank directly from tiams blood, Scabby is said to have killed Sorrit for his blood, but where got the others their power from?[/QUOTE]

First =/= most powerful. Again, the Eleint we know of would actually use SD if it were really that powerful.

[QUOTE=Abyss]Rake and Ruin's speed and strength in Andii form (ie: fighting the Galayn lord and the Hounds, or the tarthenal gods) may be related to their draconic blood. The 'normal', albeit untrained Andii on Avalii didn't seem to be that impressive against the Edur. 'Trained' Andii went up against the Kell Hunters in the MT prologue and were decimated, even with sorcery on their side.

All of which is to say, a 'normal' Tiste may be superiour to a 'normal' human, but not by all that much without sorcery as an aid. A draconean Tiste may be more impressive.[/QUOTE]

We saw how powerful normal Andii/Edur were in the MT prologue, where they faced living Kell Hunters and KCNR. The living ones are supposed to be far more powerful, and those Tiste were new to the world, without much training.

Also, Topper's Andii blood is part of what makes him so good in combat.
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#28 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 12:06 AM

mac: reread BH again, the part where the warlocks on the boats were spasming and ****ting themselves due to the ritual: they suffer great pain from the barest of use of ch;s magic as shown in MT with the warlock accompanying trull and co against serenity
first = most powerful as in the malaz world, the older a warren is the more powerful it is..

regarding the kccm and n: the dead ones are more powerful than the live ones only the dead ones are slower: do remember that being dead has the advantages of not feeling pain, not tiring, and cna only be killed by being taken apart whereas being alive carries with it burdens of being wounded.

topper: has training and aptitude: look at korlats mum: she admitted that she wasn;t a good fighter and thus died: i would say that being a draconean soletaken carries with it a great deal of clout and power
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#29 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 12:31 AM

fan_83 said:

mac: reread BH again, the part where the warlocks on the boats were spasming and ****ting themselves due to the ritual: they suffer great pain from the barest of use of ch;s magic as shown in MT with the warlock accompanying trull and co against serenity
first = most powerful as in the malaz world, the older a warren is the more powerful it is..


You think he was barely using his power against Serenity? We know the FA can take a lot of punishment and survive. And the K'risnan have had practice at using their magic (they use it to summon the Sea God), as has Hannan Mosag. Mosag's not deformed at all until he fights the Ceda.

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regarding the kccm and n: the dead ones are more powerful than the live ones only the dead ones are slower: do remember that being dead has the advantages of not feeling pain, not tiring, and cna only be killed by being taken apart whereas being alive carries with it burdens of being wounded.


...MoI specifically states several times that the living ones are far more powerful than the undead ones.

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topper: has training and aptitude: look at korlats mum: she admitted that she wasn;t a good fighter and thus died: i would say that being a draconean soletaken carries with it a great deal of clout and power


What I said was evidence that being Andii is enough to be powerful. Andarist is still pretty awesome even after forsaking his Draconic blood and despite not having a singular will to fight.

Also: WTF is "clout"? I think you're misusing terms you don't understand there.
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#30 User is offline   namo 

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:02 AM

(My opinion)

The true Eleint are naturally powerful, they have access to SD the first but not the most powerful warren. There is no warren that's inherently more powerful than others : witness the whipping of Slaninah by Raest. Individual willpower is a determining factor, but power can also be demultiplied by circles of mages (the CG ritual, the Dejim ritual...).
The Soletaken Eleint don't have automatic access to SD. Their draconic part also makes powerful.

fan_83 said:

regarding the kccm and n: the dead ones are more powerful than the live ones only the dead ones are slower: do remember that being dead has the advantages of not feeling pain, not tiring, and cna only be killed by being taken apart whereas being alive carries with it burdens of being wounded.

I agree with that.

Great Ravens cannot absorb all magic : for me they are otataral-like, less efficient against Elder warrens. And they can't do much agains Chaotic magic (Crone vs Hairlock). So they *were* having trouble agains condors. Orfantal and Korlat on the other hand could handle them (not easily though).

Andarist is a son of Mother Dark. Period.

Apsalar hadn't completed her Ascension in HoC.

I have no idea who is powerful between the condors and the Edur mages.

And with regard to the Andii I've lost track what the argument is about.

Abyss said:

All of which is to say, a 'normal' Tiste may be superiour to a 'normal' human, but not by all that much without sorcery as an aid.

Agreed. Andii interested in fighting/sorcery have had a long time to improve, but the average Andii is not necessarily better than the average human.
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#31 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 01:18 PM

dark mac: in mt, it is mentioned that the mortal kccm is faster htan the undead version and htats it.. nowhere its mentioned htat the mortal ones are more pwoerful..

look at the example of hte imass.. the undead version is way more uber than the mortal version, and that should hold true for all undead vs mortal version

being undead has advantages of not tiring, wounded, hungry, no pain and so forth
being mortal is faster, and thats it.. and you can be wounded , tired, suffer from bloodloss and so on..

so please prove me wrong by giving a quote from mt otherwise undead version is superior to the mortal version

the sea god was summoned using emurhaln not cg;s magic.. cg's magic come into play once they got the sword.. not before.. and mossag was not defromed cos he hasn;t used his magic until then and even then he has 2 shileds to block the brunt of the attack
agaisnt serenity: i seem to recall that the simplest spell requires great pain . i may be wrong as i don't have mt with me

andarist also has a sword that helps him along the way as well as eons to perfect his art

isn;t clout= influence, power, ability?
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#32 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 11 May 2006 - 08:26 PM

fan_83 said:

dark mac: in mt, it is mentioned that the mortal kccm is faster htan the undead version and htats it.. nowhere its mentioned htat the mortal ones are more pwoerful..


It's mentioned at least once in MoI that being undead makes the Kell Hunters weaker. Something along the lines of "let us be thankful that those were not living K'ell Hunters we faced, or we would all be dead". I can't remember exactly where, but it's there, somewhere.

But being faster is enough to be more powerful, so that doesn't really matter.

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the sea god was summoned using emurhaln not cg;s magic.. cg's magic come into play once they got the sword.. not before.. and mossag was not defromed cos he hasn;t used his magic until then and even then he has 2 shileds to block the brunt of the attack


They specifically say "this is not Emurlahn" when the CG is summoned. Mosag used Chaos in all the battles against the Letherii, and IIRC, he also used it right when he entered the city of Letheras...something about him competing with Rhulad for the crown of madness.

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agaisnt serenity: i seem to recall that the simplest spell requires great pain . i may be wrong as i don't have mt with me


I doubt the spell against Serenity was simple. I do remember the great pain though.

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andarist also has a sword that helps him along the way as well as eons to perfect his art


Just like Rake. As I said before, Rake's skill in battle does not come from his draconic nature.

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isn;t clout= influence, power, ability?


Influence only, which is really irrelevant in this scenario.
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#33 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:32 AM

actually it does.. the stronger a character is, a stronger or bigger aura they send out around them that ensures only those with sufficient power is able to approach:
somewhat like iccy: when he is mad, he has a physical wind pushing those unworthy of being diced back to be whipped to death.

the hounds also exhibit that property in dhg when they went up against the dhenbari(sp?) they leapt down the throat, and one of them got bitten but the jaws didn;t penetrate
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#34 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 01:43 AM

Those effects are their personal warrens.
Hello, soldiers, look at your mage, now back to me, now back at your mage, now back to me. Sadly, he isn’t me, but if he stopped being an unascended mortal and switched to Sole Spice, he could smell like he’s me. Look down, back up, where are you? You’re in a warren with the High Mage your cadre mage could smell like. What’s in your hand, back at me. I have it, it’s an acorn with two gates to that realm you love. Look again, the acorn is now otataral. Anything is possible when your mage smells like Sole Spice and not a Bole brother. I’m on a quorl.
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#35

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 06:12 AM

fan_83 said:

dark mac: in mt, it is mentioned that the mortal kccm is faster htan the undead version and htats it.. nowhere its mentioned htat the mortal ones are more pwoerful..

look at the example of hte imass.. the undead version is way more uber than the mortal version, and that should hold true for all undead vs mortal version


the Imass are more powerful due to their ritual... the Kell hunters do not have that benefit. They are indeed faster in their live forms than their undead ones.


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the sea god was summoned using emurhaln not cg;s magic.. cg's magic come into play once they got the sword.. not before.. and mossag was not defromed cos he hasn;t used his magic until then and even then he has 2 shileds to block the brunt of the attack


In fact Emurlahn had changed before the sword came along.. FW talks about it to Undinaas after the attack by the Wyval..

"You said Kurald Emurlahn...
Aye, but it has lost it's purity. I do not know how, or what, but it has changed.. among all the Edur, it is changed.'

as for the sea demon... "Mother, Hannan Mosaag's sorcery was not Kurald Emurlahn."
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#36 User is offline   tiam 

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 06:14 AM

yes but is it actually the CG magic. It may sound stupid but is it just KE invaded by choas
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#37

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 06:21 AM

tiam said:

yes but is it actually the CG magic. It may sound stupid but is it just KE invaded by choas


He uses chaos...
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#38 Guest_Swordbearer_*

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 06:52 AM

To get back to the original thread was not Orfantal Korlats true brother? and the two missing black dragons were the ones injured by Raest I may be wrong but I remember Rake having a conversation wih maybe WJ or someone and comenting about them being sorely wounded and requiring a long convalesance something to do with apathy inhibiting their healing.
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#39 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 12 May 2006 - 11:11 AM

You have a page reference for that? It would nicely explain their absence from the battle over Coral.
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Posted 12 May 2006 - 12:28 PM

It's not during the discussion where WJ tells the story of Kalam and QB to Rake. Just looked that up.
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