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The four Black Dragons in GOTM?

#1 User is offline   Rat Mentor 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:17 AM

A Thought has occured to me over the identity of the Four Black Dragons that attacked Reast. Orfantal and Korlat would be the most obvious, would Nimander Golit and Phaed be the other two? We know that they are Dragons being of the parentage of Anomander and Lady Envy. Do you agree????
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#2 User is offline   Hume 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:22 AM

No they wouldnt be, They've been hanging around Drift Avalii for a bit now.

besides if they could go soletaken Dragon why didnt they do so on the Tiste Edur attack, that got pretty desperate then.


Im pretty sure one of the other Black dragons was Serrat who was killed by Vorcan.. Correct me if im wrong.
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#3 User is offline   Paran 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 11:37 AM

I don't believe that it was Serrat - she was assigned to protect Baruk while 4 soletaken plus Silanah fought Raest.
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#4 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:03 PM

if nimander and phaed were soletaken then the andii at drift avilii wouldn't be in any trouble at all...

they would have wiped out all of the edur attacking in the time it takes for them to shift and open their jaws..
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#5 Guest_Danyah_*

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 12:22 PM

You really deem soletaken dragons as invincible. They are still young, so I think they might be weak little dragons...
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#6

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 01:23 PM

HUME said:

No they wouldnt be, They've been hanging around Drift Avalii for a bit now.

besides if they could go soletaken Dragon why didnt they do so on the Tiste Edur attack, that got pretty desperate then.


Im pretty sure one of the other Black dragons was Serrat who was killed by Vorcan.. Correct me if im wrong.
Someone else will fill you in on the other Dragon.


I don't think Serrat was a soletaken... at the end of the battle with Raest, two of the four black dragons had been driven from the battle... that would leave Orfantal and Korlat because Orfantal, Korlat, Serrat and Horult are the four Andii who are in Darujhistan at the end prior to Serrat's being killed by Vorcan, unless Serrat's being injured accounts for how easily Vorcan defeated her?
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#7 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 02:39 PM

I wrote a post about this a while ago -

http://www.malazanem...read.php?t=4078

I don't think the dragons are accounted for, that seems to be the conclusion from replies to that post.

Rake speaks of his four assassin mages, and it's natural to assume these four are the black dragons. But Serrat, one of those four assassin-mages, was busy getting whipped in Darujhistan while the four blacks + Silanah fought Raest. That only leaves three - presumably Korlat, Orfantal & who? (Horult, says Hetan)

It seems certain that two of those four were Korlat & Orfantal, and since they seemed in good condition somewhat later while chasing Vorcan, they were probably the two that weren't driven away by Raest.

This leaves one (or two) black dragons unaccounted for, if we consider the third to be Horult (where did you get that name from Hetan, don't remember it?).

Further, when the Moon's Spawn forces come into play over Coral in MoI, there are four dragons - Silanah, Rake, Korlat & Orfantal. Those two extra black dragons are missing...and since Raest is described as having driven away two, not killed them, they should still be alive.

It was also suggested that the extra black dragons may have been Rake's "exceedingly bookish warlocks" - of which there were three, or that they are part of the trio of black dragons (seen by Fiddler & co?) travelling through the Tremorlor Azath in DG. If so, then they may be on a mysterious mission somewhere - those three dragons seen in DG may be the three bookish warlocks, and perhaps only two of them agreed to fight Raest.

So...what I'm trying to say is, we don't know who those extra two dragons were, or where they had disappeared to in MoI...
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Posted 09 May 2006 - 03:13 PM

The three dragons seen in Dg were dun coloured iirc.
I don't think they have any connection with the bookish warlocks... firstly because of their colour... secondly Coll's statement onthe occupants of Moon's spawn... five black dragon etc.
Horult is named in GotM.. when Korlat and Orfantal are discussing what to do with the Azath.
As for assassin mages... they don't have to be soletaken to do that.. and there were two other names mentioned in Gotm.. and unfortunately I don't have the books with me.... those two were injured in the fight with Kalam et al on the warehouse roof. I can edit their names in later.
As I said I don't think Serrat was one of the dragons... because two were driven off injured.
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#9 User is offline   Rat Mentor 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 03:40 PM

Hume - We know that Nimander and Phaed are soletaken they are in the Dragon Family Tree. Also Lady Envy upto date hasn't changed into her Soletaken form and we had to wait to see the Dragon Family Tree to confirm that she was indeed a Soletaken.

Is it 100% fact that Nimander and Phaed are at Drift A when the battle with Reast took place?

Do we know how old Nimander and Phead are?
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#10 User is offline   Dolorous Menhir 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 03:53 PM

Hetan said:

The three dragons seen in Dg were dun coloured iirc.


So you think they were Edur dragons then? Can't be many of them floating around...

Hetan said:

As for assassin mages... they don't have to be soletaken to do that..


Rake names the four assassin mages as next most powerful, enough to replace him, during his speech to Baruk about how he could be removed as Lord of the Andii. Given what we saw of Serrat, I doubt the four mages are better than the four Draconic Soletaken.

Rat Mentor said:

Hume - We know that Nimander and Phaed are soletaken they are in the Dragon Family Tree. Also Lady Envy upto date hasn't changed into her Soletaken form and we had to wait to see the Dragon Family Tree to confirm that she was indeed a Soletaken.

Is it 100% fact that Nimander and Phaed are at Drift A when the battle with Reast took place?

Do we know how old Nimander and Phead are?


I don't think being on the Draconian family tree is absolute proof that you are a Soletaken Eleint - take Andarist for example. And the fact that it's not the final word on the subject. And how pathetic Golit appears to be.
Envy is also speculated to not be an Eleint.

And the Andii (Phaed & Golit among them) on Drift Avalii were described as abandoned by Rake, they had clearly been there much much longer than the short time between Raest's March and Cutter's arrival on the island. No way were Phead & Golit present for Darujhistan.

I think it's just something unexplained, the identities of the extra two dragons.
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#11 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 03:54 PM

danyah: having hte power to be a soletaken dragon ranks you very high up in the echoelon of powerful beings.. nearly all soletaken dragons that we know off are uber powerful... and even if they are not at the likes of rake and osserc they should be able to wipe out a couple of edur mages who are not pwoerful at all..
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#12

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:06 PM

@ Rat Mentor... Phaed was mentioned by name on Drift Avali..

@ Dolorous Menhir... do I think they are Edur dragons? good lord no... whatever gave you that idea? We've not seen any Edur soletaken apart from scabs and his daughter, Sheltatha. I don't think they were anything to do with andii or edur, and, after all the galayn lord had a draconic form too.
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#13 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 04:56 PM

It's partly a GotM'ism, but my take is that Serrat was highest amongst the assii-mages (what?), but NOT soletaken. Korat and the gender-bending Orfantal definitely WERE soletaken, and the remaining two are simply not yet named.

Phaed and Golit were already on Avalii.

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#14 User is offline   Imperial Historian 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 08:12 PM

Quote

It's partly a GotM'ism, but my take is that Serrat was highest amongst the assii-mages (what?), but NOT soletaken. Korat and the gender-bending Orfantal definitely WERE soletaken, and the remaining two are simply not yet named.


I'd agree with you there.

Quote

Phaed and Golit were already on Avalii.


Phaed certainly was, but is there a quote confirming that Golit was? For some reason I'd always assumed he'd come from elsewhere.
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#15 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 08:30 PM

fan_83 said:

danyah: having hte power to be a soletaken dragon ranks you very high up in the echoelon of powerful beings.. nearly all soletaken dragons that we know off are uber powerful... and even if they are not at the likes of rake and osserc they should be able to wipe out a couple of edur mages who are not pwoerful at all..


Being Soletaken Eleint does not make you uber powerful. All the powerful Soletaken Eleint we know of have their power without veering. And Edur mages are extremely powerful. The use Chaos, and they were able to take out Apsalar, who manages to beat seven Hounds of Shadow and 300 Claw assassing-mages without breaking a sweat.
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Posted 09 May 2006 - 09:17 PM

Imperial Historian said:

I'd agree with you there.



Phaed certainly was, but is there a quote confirming that Golit was? For some reason I'd always assumed he'd come from elsewhere.


They all arrived together didn't they? I think we'll have to assume from Drift Avali.. although it begs the question where did they meet up with Withal and Sandalath... :)
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#17 User is offline   fan_83 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 09:40 PM

dark mac: that was before aps fully embraced her gift remember... also aps is an assasin not an all out fighter as mentioned by kalam regarding t'ambar and that aps also have 2 pet dragons in BH which does help in scaring the other beasties away

being an eleint makes you uber powerful. being a soletaken eleint is a plus.. theres this whole being linked to a warren thigny.. huge size, tough scales, ability to spray pure magic from ones mouth.. access to linked warren as well as SD...

edur mages are only pwoerful if they have time to set a ritual and have enough of them to stabilise the cg's power.. without time for a ritual they die very quick and if there isn;t enough of them, then the sole mage will melt pretty quickly due to the need to use the magic frequently..

look at korlat: we know that shes not uber in andii form but when in dragon form, she can take on a couple of condor mages which are definitely more powerful than edur mages: with the whole not melting thingy

so if there are soletaken dragon on drift avalii, the edur would be scrap
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#18 User is offline   Monoch Ochem 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:27 PM

Not so sure about some of the stuff you said fan:

That Galain Lord was an Eleint Soletaken but we didn't necessarily see him spewing sorcery from his maw. Just because Rake did it doesn't mean it's standard fare...after all, it was said that Rake's maw was another gate into Kurald Galain....may be something unique to him. Incidentally, I wonder how that Galain Lord became soletaken....was he the Guardian for Aral Gamelon or something?

Hanan Mossag was pretty powerful on his own without extensive time to prepare a ritual. I'd say it's down to how powerful the mage is but yes, eventually the chaotic magic of the CG would wither them.

As for the condors being more powerful than the Edur, they were demons possessing birds. They also rested extensively and they definitely wove rituals...their sorcery was linked into a wave. Korlat didn't take them on and make short work of them. She was more or less on a suicide mission...Whiskeyjack was dead and so nothing else mattered. She prepared her KG, as best she could given the infection (which wasn't that good, basically) and veered, at which point the draconean rage took over. She and Orfantal were being sorely pressed and Brood was unlimbering his hammer to seal the lost cause before the tide turned unexpectedly. It took the arrival of the Tist Andii and a full unveiling to drive away the condors...even so, it appeared more that the Great Ravens had more to do with it. Crow and her brood were spawned from the CG's broken decayed flesh. They feed on magic and that particular chaotic one had a familiar flavour. They more or less consumed the power of the condors.

So I wouldn't be so sure about the Edur warlocks vs. the condors and I def. wouldn't say that Korlat can take on a couple of condor mages....well maybe 2....just maybe.
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#19 User is offline   Illuyankas 

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Posted 09 May 2006 - 10:33 PM

If the Great Ravens could consume the condor's magic, then why the hell were they being driven away? Orfantal took on several birds at once, and took wounds, but kicked their asses. Korlat was talking to Brood about what she would do after she came to Orfantal's assistance. And the condors lost power after the Seer was dragged off by Quick and Paran.
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#20 User is offline   Dark Mac 

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Posted 10 May 2006 - 06:07 AM

Edur mages are definitely more powerful than Condors. We see them easily defeat Letherii mages who are almost as powerful as the Ceda himself.

fan, there's no evidence that being Eleint grants any power at all. All the Eleint Soletaken we know of are powerful figures otherwise as well, and we've never seen any of them use Starvald Demelain in combat - and why wouldn't they, if it's so great?
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