[Dark Mac]

Thanks.

[tiam]

Dolorous Menhir said:

Icarium...not old? Are you sure? I think the oldest timescale we have is him killing a city 100,000 years previously, and he's obviously older than that. Though you are right, the time of the Tiste Invasion in the MT prologue is presumably much earlier than that, if the KCCM were still around.

The oldest verified date we have is the Imass Ritual, at 300,000 years previously. Icarium could easily be older than this, as Gothos clearly is. Did the MT prologue take place before or after the Ritual?

edit: what I'm trying to say is, we have no idea at all how old Icarium really is. he may have lived for an indefinite amount of time before he killed the Azath and fell into his present existence.

Well, do you think Shadowthrone was born with the aspect of Shadow?

I realise it's dubious to compare an ascended human and dragons, but the idea of K'rul ordering the warrens by somehow using the dragons is clear from BH. And there is no need for "force", since it the EG's seem so close to the dragons, they presumably assented to it.

Theres a quote at the beggining of MT i beleive when scabby goes through who can stop him cooming to Wu he says the jaghut are scattered and few. he also says what can weapons of stone do against our sorcery or sutton like that. but neway the jaghut are scattered so likely this was after the ritual. even though they seem few in the MOI prologue when pran choles group hunts down that mother the complete eradication (obviosly not complete but you see my point) on the genabackis. so id say the imass weretlan imass by now.

[namo]

tiam said:

Theres a quote at the beggining of MT i beleive when scabby goes through who can stop him cooming to Wu he says the jaghut are scattered and few. he also says what can weapons of stone do against our sorcery or sutton like that.

Only at the very beginning of the history of their race have the Jaghuts lived in an organized society : they quickly realized they didn't like each other... and so elected to live in isolation. So yes they would be scattered.
However they wouldn't necessarily be as few as Bloodeye thinks : after all, he doesn't know that much about this world.

[tiam]

i agree he doesnt know what the actual numbers are but even if they never lived in societies then they may still be the domianat species. they may have been just wandering. we also know that although some had forsaken blood ties there were fmaileis like the one in DG that list sees and like the mother in MOI

[Morgoth]

I think Scandabari would have taken more notice of the Imass if this was after the ritual.

And the Jaghut were not the dominant species because the KC were.. Now though they will evolve to become just that..

Actually, this pretty much implies that this is some time before the ritual.. The KC had a strong presence on Genebackis - read Morn - and I very much doubt Raest would have been able to dominate a continent pretty much ruled by the KC. We know Raest ruled before the Imass initiated the ritual, and thus the MT prologue must have taken place before the ritual.

[Illuyankas]

A simple solution would be that the Toblakhai are Imass/Jaghut who somehow kept an Elder Warren status into a whole self-sustainable race.

[Set'alahd Crool]

The MT prologue is WAY before the ritual. Scabandari mentioned Morn to Ruin, saying that they needn't worry about those KC since the short tails were beginning to rise in rebellion. In MoI Morn has been dead for so long that a Jaghut city rose and fell on it's ruins.
I place the MT prologue 100,000 years before the ritual.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Hikkie, the reasoning is this:

there was a time when the KCCM were the dominant race on the Malaz planet (I don't like calling it Wu). The Jaghut were a subservient race to the KCCM, or perhaps only subject to them. For myriad reasons, the KCCM fell, and the age of their supremacy ended. This was followed by a period of Jaghut rule, and it seems the Tiste races were then in the world too, coming as they did when the last of the KCCM died.

Now the Jaghut rule must have lasted for a long time, since we have no examples of Imass living contemporary with the KCCM, only Eres. So during the Jaghut era the Imass evolved from the Eres, fell under the sway of Tyrants and then fought back, eventually being forced to the extreme measure of the Ritual to win. This was performed ~300,000 years before the main series begins.

So the period of Jaghut as dominant race had to occur between the MT prologue and the Ritual, in which the rise and then swift dissolution of Jaghut civilisation must have taken place, and people like Raest and others must have been born. It's safe to say this is a not-insignificant period of time, just for the evolutionary reason, and although 100,000 years has just been plucked out of the air in an earlier reply, I think this is a reasonable estimate given SE's fondness for reasonably round dates.

edit: the intro of MoI, when we see Pannion and his sister thrown into the rent, occurs very shortly before the Tellan ritual. If I remember right, Tool's sister Kilava has already defied the summons and killed her kin, but Pran Chole is still flesh and blood. And the tower would've been there at that point. Not 100% on this point though.

[Dinivan]

timeline discussions are just lovely
but i pretty much agree with Dol's post though. MT prologue was before the Ritual - the Genabackis/Morn connection pretty much proves that.

But I'm actually wondering about the Eleint Soletaken thingy. I'm still thinking, that there are other methods to become one than drinking Tiam's blood. The reason for this is one remark Korlat makes in MoI. It goes along like "He (Rake) does not think like the rest of us. Perhaps it is the dragon blood within him" (This is, iirc, when Bruth & Co discovered that Dujek's host being chucked out is just a trick).
From this remark you might conclude that Korlat does not have (drunken) draconic blood. But she clearly is Eleint soletaken. How could that come, I wonder.

[tiam]

yes normally we only see gods and ascendents ike spite becoming draconic eleint. This is what led me to this theory that all dragons provide a measure of draconic blood that is drinkable. Mappos statement about sorrits blood and the effects of otateral on who ever drank it also spawned this arguement. Also do children inherit draconic forms from their parents. I beleive they do if both their parants are eleint (spite-draconus,tite edur woman) whereas Loric isnt (that we know of and we dont know his mother) therefore that is the only other way to beome eleint.

ONly through inheritance and killing a dragon and drinking its blood can u become an eleint. I came to this conclusuin given that nimander golit and Phaed are eleint (draconic family tree) yet thye have lived sheltered away from any thing with darist.

[Dark Mac]

Well, Rud Elalle is Soletaken Eleint and he only has one draconic parent. I would assume that the same goes for the Tiste Andii.

Remind me: was Serrat a dragon? If so, that means that three of the Tiste Andii Soletaken Eleint are siblings, which lends credence to the inheritance theory.

[namo]

Dolorous Menhir said:

there was a time when the KCCM were the dominant race on the Malaz planet (I don't like calling it Wu). The Jaghut were a subservient race to the KCCM, or perhaps only subject to them. For myriad reasons, the KCCM fell, and the age of their supremacy ended. This was followed by a period of Jaghut rule, and it seems the Tiste races were then in the world too, coming as they did when the last of the KCCM died.

Now the Jaghut rule must have lasted for a long time, since we have no examples of Imass living contemporary with the KCCM, only Eres. So during the Jaghut era the Imass evolved from the Eres, fell under the sway of Tyrants and then fought back, eventually being forced to the extreme measure of the Ritual to win. This was performed ~300,000 years before the main series begins.

Just a small remark : Scabandari mentions the Imass in the MT prologue, so they did coexist with the KCCM - and after all in GotM the Imass are one of the 4 Founding Races (where do the Toblakai fit ? no idea).

And the rest of the reasoning is just flawless.

[Abyss]

Hetan said:

... it may be that the only true Eleint blood is that of Tiam, who spawned all dragons.

Ahh, but that's up for debate, non? After all, we know she spawned SOME dragons (Dapple/Dawn/Dusk), and her blood was responsible for certain others (Rake, Ruin, Ossie, Scabby, Korlat & co) but not necessarily gave birth to ALL of them.

And Olar is her twin in some unclear respect, so she could have already been on the scene.

Correct me if i'm wrong, but for all we know, Tiam herself could be draconic because she drank from a pureblood eleint.

- Abyss, still maintains Tiam is a bit of a skanky ho, in any event.

[Illuyankas]

The line is "When veered, I am as an undead twin to Tiam," meaning that she is NOT Tiam's twin, but a dragon on the same scale as Tiam - just undead. I wonder if all the other Soletaken whose veered states we haven't seen yet, who started off just as Elder Gods, have the same (immense) size as Olar? Seems Rake is only middling as draconean Soletaken go.

[Abyss]

But note that Olar's draconic form is ref'd (iirc, by Kulp in DG) as being almost 'prehistoric', low flat head, etc, etc. Different from the description of Rake, at least the one in GotM.

The point is made in TB that Olar, Rake, Scabby and Ossie all rep'd certain races.

So either Olar is speaking figurative, or Tiam is Imass.

- Abyss, figuratively speaking, actually.

[Illuyankas]

How does that stop the First Soletaken being the same size if not the same general build as the First Dragon?

[Ellestra]

Abyss said:

Ahh, but that's up for debate, non? After all, we know she spawned SOME dragons (Dapple/Dawn/Dusk), and her blood was responsible for certain others (Rake, Ruin, Ossie, Scabby, Korlat & co) but not necessarily gave birth to ALL of them.

Tiam's daugthers were mad at her when they talked with Osric but they mentioned Tiam dying and ressurecting with each child and that it happened thousands of times. They were probably exaggerating but she might as well gave birth to all eleint and many halfDragons out there.