Help
by the own words of Icarium, Traveler (or Dassem ?) can kill him.
Icarium
#22
tiam 
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 11 April 2006 - 06:58 PM
however he sed this in modest icarium non-slaughtering mode. i beleive in terms of swordmanship dassem is without equal (skinner maybe the seguleh first) bu he doesnt have the protection iccy has when hes fighting.
For example if in the middle of the fight beetween dassem and iccy some ordered a massive hail of quarrels (im talking hundreds) iccy would be protectd by that sheild thin that stopped shan in DG whereas dassem we know is vulnerable to crossbow bolts
For example if in the middle of the fight beetween dassem and iccy some ordered a massive hail of quarrels (im talking hundreds) iccy would be protectd by that sheild thin that stopped shan in DG whereas dassem we know is vulnerable to crossbow bolts
#23
Murrin
- First Sword
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 560
- Joined: 17-April 04
Posted 11 April 2006 - 07:00 PM
bumble said:
If the Azath toxin was capable of holding Sichas Ruin for so many millenia until kettle helped him escape the dying tower, surely the Azath is capable of holding Icarium?
The 'toxin' is unique to Icarium. It's what Spite tells Mappo about - when Iccy destroyed the Azath, it infected him somehow. That's what I was referring to.
#24 Guest_uk_unbeliever_*
Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:17 PM
the one thing that has irked me with the new book (and with the series really when i think about a recent re-read) is that there isn't much consistency concerning who/what is the REALLY powerful entities in teh story... i know that this is partly because teh story is evolving, but i get the feeling when reading the series that in each book a new super tough character or entity comes on teh scene and all 'order' is lost. The 'trol' bohral'(sp?) seems pretty damn hard at teh start of the BH... killing all manner of nameless ones and having a history to match... then it gets beaten pretty easily! Now, Karsa pretty easily killed 2 deragoth (which in turn whipped the 'trol barhol'), but Karsa, previously (and yeh i know you could say he was a different person then, not as powerful) got captured and humiliated by a bunch of regular soldiers and a squad mage back in n.genabakis!!! Also, Karsa seems at the moment equal to Icarium and Mappo put together- if their one encounter is anything to go by. So, does that mean that those guys (was it the Asohk? cant remember) are equal to the more nasty creatures with huge reps? i know its not really possible to compare things like that but it make you think, when reading about characters, 'i wonder if they are really like this?', as there is a good chance that soon enough something will happen which will suggest that they aren't! In some circumstances this would be fine, allowing you to think that there are interesting 'unknowns' about teh characters and this would be cool, but with each new chapter in teh story there seems to be a complete re-ordering of the positions that each character holds... and not one that is done intentionally to create a more elaborate world.
Erikson seems to have a grand vision where the story is going (to a certain extent), and im sure by the end there wil be a much nicer 'fit' to it, but I can't see how this will happen unless the last books are used to tie up all the inconsistencies (again, i dont mean HUGE inconsistenceies... more like confusions).
This isnt meant to be a criticsm per se... but even if there is a greater 'fit' at the end i think that it will be more of a recognition that a cohesion is need than the finishing of a grand vision.
sorry if this makes no sense... its hard to express what you're thinking when critquing such a massive works. I'm not a basher either, i love the series in general and have no doubt that by the end teh Malazan book of the fallen will be one of the best Fantasy works of my generation... certainly one of the richest
Erikson seems to have a grand vision where the story is going (to a certain extent), and im sure by the end there wil be a much nicer 'fit' to it, but I can't see how this will happen unless the last books are used to tie up all the inconsistencies (again, i dont mean HUGE inconsistenceies... more like confusions).
This isnt meant to be a criticsm per se... but even if there is a greater 'fit' at the end i think that it will be more of a recognition that a cohesion is need than the finishing of a grand vision.
sorry if this makes no sense... its hard to express what you're thinking when critquing such a massive works. I'm not a basher either, i love the series in general and have no doubt that by the end teh Malazan book of the fallen will be one of the best Fantasy works of my generation... certainly one of the richest
#25 Guest_uk_unbeliever_*
Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:32 PM
Through reading some of the other posts another example comes to mind... Trull is a pretty cool guy right? we all like him, and he's a good fighter.. but we know from previous books that he's not the best fighter in his familiy, or of his kind... he's more of an allround good guy, with great spear-fighting abilities granted, but he's not played as a superpower. Yet he withstands Icarium better than anyone (even after he has been chopped up by various Edur in teh protracted assault on teh shaddow throne!)... so maybe he got some magic inspiration or something that we'll find out about or understand later... but if he could withstand Icarium in his unstoppable (so far, i think its fair to say that Icariums anger is the most powerful 'event' in teh mortal realm) force for a pretty good amount of time while badly injured and emotionally drained, how come he couldnt withstand his kin more easily???
#26
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 11 April 2006 - 09:57 PM
stop saying teh 
neway trull has become knight of shadow at this point but i agree that the trohlbarol (?) was done in pretty easily. i agree that every 2 minutes there a power shift but the overall people are still powerful.
As for the ashok regiment they ambushed karsa when he was still a oung albeit naive teblor. it took a good mage and a powerful spell to bring him down from behind. However your evaluation is wrong IMO in that karsa would get killed fighting icariumand mappo. karsa and mappo would be a good fight but karsa would probably win.
As for trull he was recognised as the best fighter of the edur. fear understood that if he fought trull then there was a solid chance he may die. he was either the ebst or the second best o a whole warrior nation. As for him withstanding his kin i think he just either let them take him or rhulad himself , whos good with his sword mind, went for him in blind rage
neway trull has become knight of shadow at this point but i agree that the trohlbarol (?) was done in pretty easily. i agree that every 2 minutes there a power shift but the overall people are still powerful.
As for the ashok regiment they ambushed karsa when he was still a oung albeit naive teblor. it took a good mage and a powerful spell to bring him down from behind. However your evaluation is wrong IMO in that karsa would get killed fighting icariumand mappo. karsa and mappo would be a good fight but karsa would probably win.
As for trull he was recognised as the best fighter of the edur. fear understood that if he fought trull then there was a solid chance he may die. he was either the ebst or the second best o a whole warrior nation. As for him withstanding his kin i think he just either let them take him or rhulad himself , whos good with his sword mind, went for him in blind rage
#27
Murrin
- First Sword
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 560
- Joined: 17-April 04
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:00 PM
uk_unbeliever said:
we know from previous books that he's not the best fighter in his familiy, or of his kind... he's more of an allround good guy, with great spear-fighting abilities granted, but he's not played as a superpower.
He was the best with the spear that Fear, the Warlock King's weapon master, had trained. He was probably best among all the Edur with a spear. On top of that, there's the whole instance with the Jheck - he ran all the way out of the ice fields, fighting the whole way, and killed hundreds of them, attacking him in packs of three. He's always been shown as something slightly beyond the norm in fighting. And he's been through a lot since then - enough that he's probably closer to ascendancy now than he was when Fear said he was the best.
As for Karsa Orlong... well, just look at when that happened. He'd only just left the plateau. Since then there was the storm on the boat, the journaey through the Nascent, getting captured and tattooed, travelling through Raraku, acting as bodyguard to Sha'ik, coming to the realisation of his position as Knight, reconciling himself with this, getting the sword and the horse and learning a lot along the way.... He went in the time between the Ashok regiment to the Deragoth from a Teblor youth to Toblakai, an ascendant, and Knight in Chains.
#28
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:18 PM
i wouldnt say trull killed hundreds of them. maybe a hundred maximum but if they attacked in groups of 3 then there would of had toa have bin atleast 100 atacks for just 300 dead jheck
but i agree about karsa growth thing. also they did ambush him from behind when he was a young and naive teblor
but i agree about karsa growth thing. also they did ambush him from behind when he was a young and naive teblor
#29 Guest_uk_unbeliever_*
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:22 PM
I must have overlooked Trull's abilities, i havent read MT for a while, but had it in my mind that he was a man more renowned for his other attributes than fighting.
I know that its lame making comparisons like Karsa/Ashok/Deragoth etc due to all the other factors... i guess the point i was making was that i dont like the way that some characters that are built up to be super awesome suddenly turn out not to be so.
Equally visa vera- Bottle, he's come from no-where yet he totally kciks nil and nether's and QB's butts in ability stakes, or so it seems. Yeh he's linked to teh ere'sal, an older more elemental power, but this hasn't come up much before, its new and unbalances all we thought to hold true in the stories world. Most of the new stuff is great, it'd be rubbish if there was 10books just about the claw, warrens and battles. But i just get a feeling when reading the books that i wish there was just a little more consistency, not that things dont change and new things come on teh scene.
Guess i'm just annoyed that the trol'barhol didn't have a bigger part to play and it got killed so easily after it's fanfare entrance... that thing was really well written and a perfect start to BH
I know that its lame making comparisons like Karsa/Ashok/Deragoth etc due to all the other factors... i guess the point i was making was that i dont like the way that some characters that are built up to be super awesome suddenly turn out not to be so.
Equally visa vera- Bottle, he's come from no-where yet he totally kciks nil and nether's and QB's butts in ability stakes, or so it seems. Yeh he's linked to teh ere'sal, an older more elemental power, but this hasn't come up much before, its new and unbalances all we thought to hold true in the stories world. Most of the new stuff is great, it'd be rubbish if there was 10books just about the claw, warrens and battles. But i just get a feeling when reading the books that i wish there was just a little more consistency, not that things dont change and new things come on teh scene.
Guess i'm just annoyed that the trol'barhol didn't have a bigger part to play and it got killed so easily after it's fanfare entrance... that thing was really well written and a perfect start to BH
#30
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:32 PM
as for being disappointed with the trohl barol your not alone. alot of people believe he was naive to think there were other great powers out there. but he did get beaten on by a marine with a knife. neway as defence to dejihm nabral (?) e had potential. like QB the power he possesed was more of an intelligent ambusher. he also faced massivee power deragoth iskaral pust (not massiv but holds a place in shadow and renowned as High mage) he also had potential. for example he coud crate more of him self. therefore if he had gotten to e.g. aren and therewere no mages to seak of there could have been 50 dejihm nabrals. he ad potential. also when he fought the marine he was weak from not feeeding
#31 Guest_bumble_*
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:34 PM
uk_unbeliever said:
the one thing that has irked me with the new book (and with the series really when i think about a recent re-read) is that there isn't much consistency concerning who/what is the REALLY powerful entities in teh story... i know that this is partly because teh story is evolving, but i get the feeling when reading the series that in each book a new super tough character or entity comes on teh scene and all 'order' is lost. The 'trol' bohral'(sp?) seems pretty damn hard at teh start of the BH... killing all manner of nameless ones and having a history to match... then it gets beaten pretty easily! Now, Karsa pretty easily killed 2 deragoth (which in turn whipped the 'trol barhol'), but Karsa, previously (and yeh i know you could say he was a different person then, not as powerful) got captured and humiliated by a bunch of regular soldiers and a squad mage back in n.genabakis!!! Also, Karsa seems at the moment equal to Icarium and Mappo put together- if their one encounter is anything to go by. So, does that mean that those guys (was it the Asohk? cant remember) are equal to the more nasty creatures with huge reps? i know its not really possible to compare things like that but it make you think, when reading about characters, 'i wonder if they are really like this?', as there is a good chance that soon enough something will happen which will suggest that they aren't! In some circumstances this would be fine, allowing you to think that there are interesting 'unknowns' about teh characters and this would be cool, but with each new chapter in teh story there seems to be a complete re-ordering of the positions that each character holds... and not one that is done intentionally to create a more elaborate world.
In brief, IMO the world of SE is a terrifyingly real mirror on reality - all of the inconsistancies and confusions of everyday life that find us all, all of the unknowns and mysteries that we are never privy to. Why should a fantasy world be any different, surely the fun would be taken out of life without the unanswered questions that we all ask ourselves everyday. Nothing is static, and our own places and roles in the world are ever changing. I think that SE's genius comes from his ability to distort or even paint fantasy with his vicious and brutal realities and atrocities that we as humans are faced and have faced for thousands of years.
#32
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 11 April 2006 - 10:46 PM
ive jsut read the bit with hedge and paran talking about peaks of mountains being god hood and how theres so many peaks that why theres so many ascendents. read that again and it explains alot BH 383
#33 Guest_uk_unbeliever_*
Posted 12 April 2006 - 08:13 AM
bumble said:
In brief, IMO the world of SE is a terrifyingly real mirror on reality - all of the inconsistancies and confusions of everyday life that find us all, all of the unknowns and mysteries that we are never privy to. Why should a fantasy world be any different, surely the fun would be taken out of life without the unanswered questions that we all ask ourselves everyday. Nothing is static, and our own places and roles in the world are ever changing. I think that SE's genius comes from his ability to distort or even paint fantasy with his vicious and brutal realities and atrocities that we as humans are faced and have faced for thousands of years.
I totally agree with that, and respect his ability to leave the reader asking questions... you're right- it's one of the best things about the books.
There's always reasons we can give about why or how certain things happened that seem unusal, and we all do it when reading the books, but im sure a lot of time we a reading into it things that weren't intended. (Nothing wrong with that- it's what makes a story unique to the reader- but I wouldn't say that the writer intends it on most occasions). Inconsistencies are great when they're planned- sure, it would be a bit lame if there was one all powerful hero that could never get touched... it's good that there is such a huge reange of protagonists. Again, im not really criticising it as i know that none of us can do so until we can read the whole series back to back, and to point out that maybe there are too many notable characters with inconsistent matchable abilities is like saying 'i wish his stories weren't so grand', which would be stupid as thats why i love them!lol
#34
Asandir
- Hermit
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 183
- Joined: 29-March 06
- Location:Dundee
-
Interests:Anime
Manga
Computer games and of course books. - Poof...I dissappeared again
Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:22 AM
i think maybe the combined might of the crimson guard might slice up iccy fairly good.just one sneaking up on a tiste andii GoTM (who was next or pretty close in strength to rake)with their warren surrounding them was pretty good. think of the damage the whole crew could manage.
Even though i doubt they'd ever have a reason to attack iccy it'd be intereting to see.
Even though i doubt they'd ever have a reason to attack iccy it'd be intereting to see.
#35
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:29 AM
i dont think so. maybe the 500 avowed of the crimson guard could have a chance but remember iccy comes form a world before the one we see today. as we know in the past there were far more dangerous things running round. therefore we must assume that iccy has fought dangerous mages and dangerous warriors before
#36
Morgoth
- executor emeritus
-
- Group: High House Mafia
- Posts: 11,448
- Joined: 24-January 03
- Location:the void
Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:35 AM
And besides, Iccy melts his enemies. The way he dispatched the Edur, and the bonecaster - perhaps the most powerfull kind of mage we've encountered in the series as of yet apart from matrons - would imply that he can pretty much wipe the floor with the Crimson Guard.
Ofc, we do not know the extent of the abilities of characters such as Skinner and especially Cowl. I am so very very much looking forwards to Return of the Crimson Guard
Ofc, we do not know the extent of the abilities of characters such as Skinner and especially Cowl. I am so very very much looking forwards to Return of the Crimson Guard
Take good care to keep relations civil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
It's decent in the first of gentlemen
To speak friendly, Even to the devil
#37
tiam
- Ascendant
-
- Group: Mott Irregulars
- Posts: 3,948
- Joined: 26-January 06
Posted 12 April 2006 - 10:45 AM
yes i to am incredibly curios about the CGRD however i completely disagree that the CGRD would have a chance. Cowl may be good but as good as a bonecaster? unlikely as we know they can rival the gods. also skinner the legendary swordsmen/woman could be a rival to dassem but trull albeit not as good but still held his own until his weapon broke. we know the CGRD use plan un enchanted weapons
#38
Cause
- Elder God
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 5,922
- Joined: 25-December 03
- Location:NYC
Posted 12 April 2006 - 02:16 PM
does it not say nok that skinner is a man?
yeah I think cowl had the skill to sneak up on serrat not the power so to speak. Icarium would destroy him. Though I wonder what if the rope for instance snuck up on icarium and just obliterated him before he could go in rage mode?
yeah I think cowl had the skill to sneak up on serrat not the power so to speak. Icarium would destroy him. Though I wonder what if the rope for instance snuck up on icarium and just obliterated him before he could go in rage mode?
#39
Red_orbiT
- Lieutenant
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 146
- Joined: 14-February 06
Posted 12 April 2006 - 03:15 PM
Dont think we know enough how his rage mode works. How fast can it start if he's hurt? Can he be killed easily when not in rage more? There is one time in deadhouse gate(I think) in the azath when Icarium is unconscious. He starts moaning anyway, the hounds of shadow back away and tension rise.
We've never really seen him hurt either, so we don't know just how resistant he is...
We've never really seen him hurt either, so we don't know just how resistant he is...
#40
Demon X
- High Fist
-
- Group: Malaz Regular
- Posts: 445
- Joined: 02-February 03
Posted 13 April 2006 - 08:28 AM
Was anybody else as freaked out as I was when they saw Icarium unleased? Now I think I understand how he shattered an entire world! Is it possible that when the rage takes him he becomes the physical manefestation of Chaos? It would certainly balance the seemingly Placid persona of his calm self. Whatever happened to damage him could of had a ying/yang effect on him!!
Any ideas??
Edit :Thread merged by Hetan.
Any ideas??
Edit :Thread merged by Hetan.
