[tjc52]

Remember the hound in MoI that travels with Lady Envy? Well, what is it? We have everyone, from Anomander Rake on down, that it "rivals those of Shadow," and we have the rather criptic comment from Lady Envy, in reply to Toc saying "He could a Hound of Shadow!" that "He could indeed. I believe, however, that he is reluctant." In the words of Toc, "What in Hoods name does THAT mean?"

We seem to have established that the Hounds of Shadow are the Shadows of the Deragoth, at least those 7 that were chained in the statues.

One theory, we know that there were once more deragoth, a whole species of them, back in the time of the KCCM and the Eres'al. Is that fact that Garath exists a clue that there are perhasp more of them surviving to this day than the 7 we know(now 5 thanks to Karsa)?

And also, what is Garaths link to K'rul? He seems to be Lady Envy's link to K'rul, so is he an avatar of K'rul as well?

And why is he with Envy in the first place?

Any Ideas?

[Abyss]

Hetan mentioned in another thread that Ysomething Garath is mentioned in TB as being one of the first human cities ever. Could just be a naming convention tho'.

My pet theory ("Sit, theory, sit! Good theory.") is that the Hounds of Shadow have been around long enough to breed, and while there might be seven (originally and in GotM before Rake neutered two), others have come and gone, and one of those is Garath.

- Abyss, needs to stock up on treats.

[tjc52]

Not a bad theory - after all, we know that some of the know 7 are the offspring of some of the others. A concept which runs contrary to the idea that those 7 are just the shadows ripped from the deragoth.

[Illuyankas]

How about, the Hounds Of Shadow are the POSSESSORS of the shadows of the Deragoth, that they are just ascended beasts with power from the shadow they each have. Mind you, they all could still be the original Hounds, just that they are immortal - imagine having your dad in charge for the rest of eternity... Ouch. The concept that a pack of dogs was granted the shadows by some unknown power (Edgewalker?) isn't too unlikely.

[Asheroth]

It's possible that Garath is a Mule of Shadow in disguise. I mean, we wouldn't want Lady Envy destroying the Pannion Domin without a MoS around to observe the proceedings.

[Abyss]

I think it was stated somewhere in TB that Dessimbowelackis could only FIND 7 deragoth.

And consider that in appearance, the Hounds and the deragoth are not the same.

I hold to my theory that Dessimbelacky engaged in some ritual with the remaining deragoth that went bad, but i wonder if, mad scientist that he was, the Hounds of Shadow were initially his creation. His soul may have been fragmented into seven doggie vessels, which then went about their existance.

I do think that the original seven cities were not linked directly to the seven deragoth Dessim' found tho'.

- Abyss, bets on lucky number se7en.

[Abyss]

That's an interesting theory i don't think we've ever discussed.

But there is a definite shadow/soul/something link between the seven Hounds as of GotM and the seven deragoth statutes in HoC, so there's more than evolution at work, but i wonder if that's where the Hounds started.

- Abyss, figures Dessimbelacky ran one hell of a puppy mill.

[tiam]

has any countenanced (?) the fact that there must have been more thean 7 deragoth.

In lorics trips to wereever he went in HOC he sees 7 deragoth knowing that they are the dogs bollocks and how they ruled over primitive humans etc. Then 3 kel hunters turn up and are killed. in MOI there were 800 kell hunetrs. now loric claims that the deragoth were the reason the KCCM never colonised 7c. therefore theremust have been loads of them. 7 hounds cant defend a whole continent.

As for the hounds being garath i think lady envys comment was done in humour however i do believe there are more than a few massive hounds going round somewere.

Dessimbelackis could only chain 7 deragoth because they were so powerful but there must of been more. i f he could only chain 7 that means there must have been more.

[Dolorous Menhir]

No, it's stated that the Deragoth were a species declining into extinction, and Dessimbaleckis made his bargain/pact/whatever with THE ONLY 7 REMAINING.

And I thought he made a deal with the Deragoth, he didn't chain them against their will (which would be very difficult, I imagine). Not sure about that though.

The place that L'oric travelled back to was a huge amount of time before the main series or the First Human Empire, since only the Eres (evolutionary precursors of homo malazan) were around. So there's no contradiction between the implied large number of Deragoth (needed to resist KCCM) in that much earlier time period and there being only 7 by the time of Dessimbaleckis and his Empire.

Presumably this means the five of those seven still roaming the series (Karsa having killed two) are the only Deragoth we will be seeing, but then again anything can happen in the series. There could be some hanging around a warren somewhere, or in a barrow waiting for Paran to ride past.

(When Kalam had his vision of Raraku's past and overheard the conversation between two soldiers about the Holy Protectors, the soldiers said that five of them had died, and another was near death. If the Holy Protectors were the Deragoth, then does this mean that the last two also died before the seven were imprisoned in the statues? Or maybe the five dead ones were the "dead" statues and the two who still lived - at the time of that vision - were related to the two "active" statues that Onrack broke. And what killed those five anyway?)

[Illuyankas]

I'll sneak in here and say yes, it is, during a conversation between Ganath and Paran, I believe during the journey into the Nascent.

[Abyss]

Hetan said:

thanks...good because I'm just getting to that bit in my re-read.. was a bit excited the first time through..

Heh, I totally felt the same way about the first read.

- Abyss, rereading the whole thing now.

[Illuyankas]

Me too - I've just about finished with my fourth reread (mwahaha) and I've only had it a month. Looking back, I probably should have read it in more than ten hours the first time, just to spread it ou- oh who am I kidding, I'd have read it even faster if I could.

[Murrin]

Hetan said:

. Five of the Seven Protectors are no more. Does
that mean nothing? And the sixth will not recover, now that we have
banished the black beast itself.’
‘I wonder, did we indeed drive it from this realm?’
‘If the Nameless Ones speak true, then yes

"The black beast itself" suggests some distinction betwen the two, perhaps that the Seven Protectors drew their power from the Deragoth, but were not actually the same creature.