[Anomander Rake]

A very good book, hope next one is released in good time. Just a few questions and comments?

What is littlefinger exactly upto, what is it he wants, and what is he exactly aiming for. He seems to know about Daenerys (mentions something about 3 queens battling it out), but seemed a bit indifferent to her.

I'm getting the impression that there is gonna be need for 3 characters to be the heads of the dragons, I'm also assuming they are gonna need them to have Targayen blood in them. Therefore there is Daenery's, for those who believe in the R+L=J theory, there's Jon, but who will be the third head?

The Blackfish I thought was brought out excellently, really came to like his character.

One of the most anticipated characters I've been waiting for is Howland Reed, I hope he makes an appearance soon, though from what I've read at ASOiAF board is that he won't be shown with his own POV. Still from someones else POV will be fine, as long as we can find out all the info he's hoarding .

[Blind]

Anomander Rake said:

I'm getting the impression that there is gonna be need for 3 characters to be the heads of the dragons, I'm also assuming they are gonna need them to have Targayen blood in them. Therefore there is Daenery's, for those who believe in the R+L=J theory, there's Jon, but who will be the third head?

Well, I like the theory of Tyrion being the third head (though he hasn't any Targ blood)... For one thing he has probably left Westeros at the end of aSoS, which could give him the opportunity of hooking up with Dany. Also, in aGoT he dreams about flying with dragons... It would be ironic if he came back to fry Cersei.

Not sure that the third head needs to have Targaryen blood, because up to now the lesson of the series has been that power matters more than blood (Robert took the throne thanks to circumstances, not the drop of targaryen blood he could claim). There seem to be some people with Targ blood around, like the guy whose name I can't recall, that takes care of Cersei's shipbuilding in aFFC, and who betrays her, but he's not that interesting.

[Werthead]

Actually Robert has a much more substantial amount of Targaryen blood than we were previously led to believe. He's the great-grandson of Aegon V ('Egg' from the Dunk & Egg novellas) giving him quite a good claim on the crown (if it wasn't for Daenerys and Viserys surviving).

Interestingly, this revelation also means that Stannis, his daughter Shireen, the late Renly, and Robert's bastards (Gendry, Edric Storm and Mya Stone among others) all have Targaryen blood as well, a fact that may become significant in the future.

GRRM has said, possibly significantly, that the 'third' head of the Dragon doesn't need to have any Targaryen blood, implying that the first two might do.

ADWD Spoiler:

Spoiler

Tyrion has left Westeros. I don't think I'm spoiling too much by saying he's now in the Free Cities and his travels will take him much further afield.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I read on a different forum that the Baratheons were very closely related to House Targaryen, and that Robert (as the senior Baratheon) was actually fourth or fifth in succession to the Throne (behind, I assume Rhaegar, Viserys, and Rhaegar's two children, since this was before the birth of Daenerys). I just thought that was funny.

I've never understood the Rhaegar + Lyanna theory, wasn't it specifically noted in aGoT that Jon & Arya are the only two of Eddard's children that strongly resemble him rather than Catelyn, and that this is why some believe the other four children to be born of Catelyn's (possible) adultery? I thought that made it very clear that Eddard was his father. It's his mother that's unknown, though I can't think of any female Targaryens who would've been available for Ned to knock up. That could be all wrong though, I haven't read Ned's chapters in aGoT for a while, and he doesn't get many POV's in the later books for some reason.

Littlefinger seems to be motivated by a totally ruthless desire for power & Catelyn Tully. I don't know whether he plans to hold the Throne himself (he seems to realistic to expect that), but I don't think he is a Targaryen loyalist. The striking thing is, you can trace almost every step in the fall of Robert & Ned back to Littlefinger...it was all him. Whether he will be happy with the Eyrie, who knows? I'm more concerned about what he will do when he finds out about Zombie Catelyn...potentially very unpleasant. More unpleasant than him & Sansa? Hmm

Daenerys is the only confirmed full-blood Targaryen in the series, as far as I know, now that Aemon is dead (WHY, GRRM, WHY?). So it seems the dragon-heads will have to be non-Targaryens. Strangely, I'd never considered Dany as a dragon-head before, but now that you mention it, it is a lot easier to only have to find two others. I think Tyrion for sure, given that he has burned his bridges with everyone else, and his future stature has been often hinted at, don't know about Jon Snow...the Wall would have to fall before he was freed from his oath, but in that case he would be VERY motivated to unite with Dany and use the dragons against the Others.

Does anyone see Bran as a dragon-head? Such a big deal has been made about him wanting to fly...

I bet Howland Reed dies before he gets to do anything on-screen. Or if he does appear he will die shortly after.

How do you have aDwD info Werthead? I was resigned to waiting five+ years just for GRRM to write it, has he actually finished it already?

[rlfcl]

besides the clues such as the way lyanna dies (ie the blood surrounding her on a bed....ie died in childbirth), the fact that rhaegar loved her, the fact that (as far as i can remember) everyone who's mentioned ned's indiscretion has mentioned someone else than ashara dayne, etc. im pretty sure there are more clues too i just can't remember them.

anyways besides that, if jon has a strong resemblance to ned (or more correctly, to the stark side of the family than ned in particular), it could simply be because lyanna's genes were dominant over rhaegar's. we've already seen taragaryen mixed bloods with either very little or no silver hair.

[Werthead]

The latest ADWD information can be found here:

I'm a mod at Westeros.org and we were getting too many "ADWD Release Date?" questions so we stuck up a sticky with all the info that GRRM has released. He also does updates on his own website at this location. His next update is due in a few weeks.

However, to briefly summarise, ADWD is roughly 35% complete. No release date is set, with February 2007 being the earliest and October 2007 (two years after AFFC) being the latest dates speculated on. But certainly ADWD seems to progressing with little of the problems that plagued AFFC.

ADWD will have the following POV characters:

Arya Stark
Bran Stark
Jon Snow
Davos Seaworth
Tyrion Lannister
Daenerys Targaryen
Asha Greyjoy
Theon Greyjoy (he's back!)
And a new, unknown POV (speculated to be Prince Quentyn Martell)

If GRRM has room at the end of the novel, he may revisit some of the characters left hanging at the end of AFFC and bring their stories up to synch with the others, since ADWD will likely extend in timeline for several months after the events of AFFC.

There's also a good 5-6 chapters from ADWD that GRRM has read at various signings and conventions, so we actually know a fair bit about what happens at the start of the book. I'll refrain from posting spoilers here though, unless there's a great outcry for them?

[garden_rake]

quick question for you bud, seen as you're the man in the know

whats happened to rickon? is he returning? seems a big thing to me as he's one of the heirs to winterfell

[Dolorous Menhir]

Will Theon be a prisoner of Ramsay Bolton, or is he somehow free and going to challenge Euron as King of the Ironmen?

I just knew that Davos wasn't dead, I knew it. A Stannis POV would be nice, or Melisandre.

Is there any chance there will still be single-chapter POV's, like "the Soiled Knight" in AFfC? The thing that infuriates me most about this series (APART FROM CERSEI F***ING LANNISTER) was that

Spoiler

Tywin died without our seeing his thoughts...

[Werthead]

Rickon is out of the story at the moment (he's with Osha the wildling, wherever the hell she's disappeared to) but according to GRRM we will see him again, "Eventually." GRRM admitted that having Rickon so young was a major mistake and he should have dropped a six or twelve-month gap into AGOT to make him grow up a bit. So don't be surprised if he doesn't turn up again until Book 6 or 7.

The 'unknown POV' started life as the 'Fifth Dornish POV Chapter' in AFFC. Basically, accord to GRRM there were 5 Dorne-set POV chapters in the pre-split AFFC (1 Areo Hotah, 2 Arianne Martell, 1 Arys Oakheart and 1 unknown). However, only 4 of them showed up. The assumption is that the fifth has been moved into ADWD. We know from AFFC that Quentyn Martell is on his way to Meereen and given that the bulk of ADWD will feature events only in the North and far east, he becomes the logical choice for the POV as he's both a Dornish POV and in the area of the story ADWD will cover. Whether he's a one-shot POV or if GRRM will expand him into a proper POV remains to be seen. However, that's it. No more one-shot POVs in ADWD.

Theon is still a prisoner in the Dreadfort. It's assumed (but with this series you cannot make assumptions) that Asha will try to spring him from the Dreadfort and set him up as a claimant to the throne, with herself manipulating events from behind the scenes (since in AFFC she finally accepted that the ironborn would never accept a woman as ruler). I don't really see the point of a Theon POV if he's just going to sit in the Dreadfort and have bits of him flayed off by Ramsay for a laugh.

Don't assume anything about Davos. The POV chapter GRRM has read is set before he goes to White Harbour and chronologically ADWD will run alongside AFFC for most of it's length, so the earlier Davos chapters will take place before his reported demise in AFFC. He could still buy the farm. However, I have one very good theory why he'll survive:

Spoiler

Arya still has several chapters in ADWD. Splitting her chapters between AFFC and ADWD doesn't make sense unless, given she interacted with another AFFC character in that book, namely Sam, she's set up to interact with another ADWD character. The most likely candidate for that role is Davos. In the ADWD spoiler chapter he's on the Sisters, the islands between White Harbour and the Fingers. Assuming he survives his apparent death in White Harbour, it's likely he'll need to hide out for a while before he can return to Westeros, since if the Lannisters find out Wyman Manderly lied to them, they'll attack White Harbour. Therefore the most likely place for Davos to hide is, hey hey, Braavos, which is just across the Narrow Sea to the south-east of White Harbour. Thus he could go to WH and meet Arya. This is of course speculation.

[Dolorous Menhir]

"I don't really see the point of a Theon POV if he's just going to sit in the Dreadfort and have bits of him flayed off by Ramsay for a laugh."

I don't know, it would be very satisfying to have Theon tortured at length, I mean, he was responsible for the deaths of Rodrick Cassel, Maester Luwin, all our favourites at Winterfell. The only redeeming thing about him was the avenue he provided for GRRM to indulge in some hard porn scenes, and I really hope he doesn't pursue that theme during his imprisonment.

So was the skin shown to Catelyn by the Freys actually from Theon? As soon as I read that scene I thought that even if it was his, it wasn't proof of death, and we've plenty of other examples of fake trophies from the supposedly dead - Bran & Rickon's heads, the Mountain's head, Davos' hand (fingers crossed on the supposedly there).

[Werthead]

I think we can assume it is from Theon and Theon's still alive. GRRM said of Theon that "He's alive and wishing he wasn't." My guess is next time we meet Theon he's going to have lost his looks...

[Brahm_K]

Dolorous Menhir said:

I don't know, it would be very satisfying to have Theon tortured at length, I mean, he was responsible for the deaths of Rodrick Cassel, Maester Luwin, all our favourites at Winterfell. .

Well, it was really the Bastard of Bolton who was responsible for those, though Theon did send him out to get the army. I find Theon to be slightly sympathetic; he's arrogant and an asshole, but he was so tragically out of his depth in everything he did that I couldn't help but pity him. I'm looking forward to seeing his POV once again and seeing how's he's changed after his flaying. Still, I'm sure we won't see him till near the end of ADWD; Theon was not set to be in the original AFFC, and if Asha is going to spring him, as has been expected, then it will have to be after the book passed the AFFC timespan.

[Dolorous Menhir]

If Theon hadn't used his insider knowledge to invade Stark lands and take Winterfell then Ramsay Bolton would never have been in a position to kill Ser Rodrik and raze the castle. So I blame Theon.

[Blind]

I have no sympathy whatsoever for Theon. I don't blame him for the sack of Winterfell (that was Bolton), but he is despicable in the way he treats others - like that ship captain's daughter on his way to Pyke. Also, in aCoK, he agreed to have two unknown children killed, instead of Bran and Rickon. He might develop some redeeming features after his stay with the Boltons, but until then I'll consider he deserved everything he got.

[Brahm_K]

Dolorous Menhir said:

If Theon hadn't used his insider knowledge to invade Stark lands and take Winterfell then Ramsay Bolton would never have been in a position to kill Ser Rodrik and raze the castle. So I blame Theon.

I don't quite understand this. Theon didn't do it, so how can it be his fault? You can't blame people for the actions of others, even if their actions did leave the other actions open for... action.

[rlfcl]

Brahm_K said:

I don't quite understand this. Theon didn't do it, so how can it be his fault? You can't blame people for the actions of others, even if their actions did leave the other actions open for... action.

well he did send out ramsay to get more men for the express purpose of killing the besiegers, if you want to argue morals here...

[Abyss]

I have to love the ambiguity of the series that has people debating whether Theon was a 'bad guy' .

Littlefinger is out for power. His plan to marry Sansa off as his 'daughter', his takeover of the Eyrie, his alliances, all of it is leading to more power. He's an opportunistic, manipulative mastermind.

Interesting how so many events are moving towards Dany... no less than three different groups/reps are on their way to her as of the end of AFoC.


- Abyss, looks fwd to more Tyrion.

[Dolorous Menhir]

rlfcl said:

well he did send out ramsay to get more men for the express purpose of killing the besiegers, if you want to argue morals here...

Exactly.

I don't care that Littlefinger is largely responsible for the entire war and gradual dissolution of Westeros, pushing that monster Lysa Arryn out the sky door made it all worth it.