[Cause]

I think dujek is definatly dead. they are building a tomb for him. Surely someone would notice if the coffins empty

[Sir Thursday]

When the rest of the old guard disappeared, there were rumours about them actually not dying...if this is what it is, then something similar would start up again regarding Dujek. It's not easy to fake your own death and then escape in a camp surrounded by your own troops: everyone recognizes you. Besides, all of the old guard faked their deaths by drowning. The scene between Urko and Apsalar reenforces that notion.

On the other hand, Dassem Ultor didn't die by drowning...but I would argue that that situation is slightly different because Dassem was ascendant. I guess that they could just lose Dujek's body on its way to whereever he is to be buried...

Vox

[Cause]

Dassem never chose his means of death. and I dont think dujek was aprt of the old guard plan to all die by drowning. By the way anyone figured out the supposed joke behind this

[Abyss]

I think it's fair to say Dujek is 'really' dead. Whether he stays that way is,as always in this series, up for speculation.

I find the question of whether Dujek was a Bridgeburner more interesting...

If i have the timing of events right, the BBs were formed AFTER Laseen demoted WJ to Sgt and Dujek to his commander. So Dujek was never a BB and cannot join them in ascendancy.

Anyone think otherwise?

- Abyss, ascends in the elevator every morning.

Logically

[Imperial Historian]

The BB's were formed prior to the prologue of GotM and Whiskeyjacks demotion, Whiskeyjack has the BB bridge tatoo in the prologue of GotM. Dujek could be a BB but I doubt it he was on Quon with Duiker and then on Malaz isle and then Genabackis, I dont recall any mentions of him being on Seven Cities before, which seems to be the BB's territory.

[Lister of Smeg]

Dujek isn't a BB. Whiskeyjack was still a commander when he took the leftovers of other companies into Raraku after Quick Ben. Dujek wasn't with them and there has never been any mention of him joining the company later.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm pretty sure Dujek isn't a BB, so he didn't get to take part in the en masse ascendancy. I think it's a raw deal, the way he was treated.

My theory on the ascendancy of Coltaine is that it was the faith placed in him by all his hundreds of thousands of dependents on the Chain of Dogs that pushed him into ascendancy, in addition to personal changes wrought by the strain, etc. If that's right, and it was enough to make Coltaine almost ascend (he didn't, he went into Wickan reincarnation), then surely Dujek's many years as High Fist, leader of the Host, with the absolute loyalty of his men, bearing all the pressures he did so stoically, could've pushed him towards ascenscion too?

Perhaps the loss of personal strength that came with Whiskeyjacks death negated this, and in becoming a broken man he couldn't survive the disease or ascend.

[Urko Crust]

Danyah said:

Why would an old, one armed high fist fake his own death? He survived purgings, empirial purges, half a million battles and campaigns, lost all his friends while being adored by an entire empire,....

There is absolutely no reason for him to disappear.

I think you have given all the reasons why he should disapear. he has lived through far to much to want to carry on but lasseen would never let him retire at this point when he is the only general that she has any faith in. i think the information that caused his staff to proclaim paran was nothing more than dujek telling them that he was off and naming his successor.
remember dujek has faked a number of bridge burner deaths, the ones living in Daru, so that they could retire. he just did the same fo himself

[tiam]

ni dujek is dead IMO. he might come back in some random plot twst but we all know how much WJ gettin kiled hurt him and we knew hed lost some of his prowess due to that. tay calls him a broken man therefore when he died he died. it would be pointless if he came back neway. he has no power except as a good general and what good is a general with no men

[Abyss]

The big distinction between Coltaine and Dujek is that ultimately, altho he died, Coltaine was never broken or defeated. Dujek, on the other hand, was broken at Coral and perhaps was basically just going thru the motions. Yes, he led a strike against Poliel's temple, but even that went bad and we know very little about the details.

Leaving aside that Wickans don't die, they reiterate (loved that line), all the ascensions we've seen post death have been by individuals who did NOT give in/give up - Baudin went down fighting, Trake, lost in his tiger form, still fought, the BBs never backed down, Coltaine, where to even begin...

You could make a decent argument the other way, but it seemed as tho' he had fallen from his glory and was not going to climb back up.

- Abyss, sniff, sniff, sob.

[Dolorous Menhir]

To continue along those lines - speculation in HoC between Cutter and Apsalar was that, to ascend, you had to reject mortality, become less human somehow. I don't see Dujek ever taking that step.

[Abyss]

Dol'Men makes an interesting point. Baudin, Trake, Coltaine, they all rejected humanity to a certain extent, if only to get the job done.

I suppose even Trull qualifies - he rejected his own mortality in fighting Iccy, ie: "Fine, i'm going to die... this green nutcase is STILL not going to get past me to the kids without a spear in his torso.... crap, spear shattered, ok, what else is handy, ooh, look, another spear, ok, herewego again..."

- Abyss, could totally make a Monty Python's Black Knight joke here...

[spasticcolon]

I think Dujek is dead, but I also believe he will be part of the ascended Bridgeburners. Although it isn't written anywhere that he was a BB, I think with both he and WJ dead, they will still be in charge of the BB now that they are all dead (with a few exceptions).

Personally, I think having Dujek die was all manipulation to get Ganoes in charge of the army (which Laseen believes is missing or obliterated). He can now lead that army when it eventually meets up with Tavore's and they will join together to fight in the coming "real war" that the Empire seems to not be prepared for.

[Dark Mac]

Dolorous Menhir said:

To continue along those lines - speculation in HoC between Cutter and Apsalar was that, to ascend, you had to reject mortality, become less human somehow. I don't see Dujek ever taking that step.

Indeed, but the Bridgeburners certainly never rejected humanity. There's a passage about exactly this, when Kalam and QB talk to Whiskeyjack about how their caring for each other is what keeps them going.

I'd guess that the speculation between Cutter and Apsalar is just purely wrong. After all, Cutter's not a very intelligent boy.

[Dolorous Menhir]

The ascenscion of the Bridgeburners stemmed from three things. Kimloc's song, Rake's sealing spells on those interred in Moon's Spawn (maybe) and most importantly, Paran's blessing. These are all exceptional cases, they did not ascend in the same manner as the typical ascendant like Dancer or Apsalar (personal quest, conscious intent to ascend).

I don't think you can use the Bridgeburners as a guide to how individuals ascend, since they seem to be the only group example seen so far.

And I wouldn't dismiss what Apsalar and Cutter say so lightly.