[Tempo]

Just a question....

I am re-reading Gardens of the moon yet again. Paran has just been knifed and the Twins (Oponn) are talking to Hoods representative.

The deal is that there has to be "reciprocity", and that Oponn will arrange the death of someone close to Paran in exchange (In his shadow).

So who was that? Any ideas

[caladanbrood]

One of his parents, I believe.

[Dolorous Menhir]

There was mention earlier in the book, I think when he met Tavore, that one of his parents was ill. Later, when the deal for his resurrection is hammered out, the language implies Hood's servant will take someone close to him in exchange, someone who is already close to death.

So I'm pretty confident it was a parent of his, I think his father. Whichever one it was that Tavore was concerned about.

I don't think Paran knows about this bargain though, if Shadowthrone or Oponn lets slip that his father died so he could live who knows how he'll take it?

[Imperial Historian]

I'd always thought that the life which was taken was Felisin, not his parent's, but it really could be anyone close to Paran...

[Tempo]

Thanks for the replies,

But I dont think it can be Felisin, it is clearly shown that she died because she represented the whirlwind goddess, and because as a result Tavore stuck a big sword into her. Oponn didnt seem to be involved to me.

And didnt Paran parents die in the cull of the nobility at the start of DG?


I guess I was wondering was there a death that Paran himself reflects on in the book? In other words did Paran ever say,

"Oh no, X has died, woe is me, and whats more it was all my fault because I cheated death. Funny old world this..."

Have I just missed any reference such as this, or did Steven Erikson forget to include it?

[Dolorous Menhir]

I am being extra careful with spoilers. Lots of spoilers below.

Spoiler

Felisin died a long time after Paran's resurrection. I'm pretty sure bargains like the exchange of one soul for another would involve the taking of the other soul immediately, not many months later, so it could take Paran's "spot" in Hood's realm right away.

Both parents were alive in GotM, one was unwell. Gamet's memories in HoC tell us that Felisin was alone on the night of Laseen's cull of the nobility (the night before DG opens, with Baudin, Heboric & Felisin in chains). Both parents were already dead. It seems one died in exchange for Ganoes, and the other then died from grief a bit later. So both his parents died as a result of the deal. I didn't really see this until after a few rereads though, no-one spells it out because there are no POV characters that know all the info.

And Paran didn't remember the period when he was dead and Shadowthrone, Oponn & Hood's servant were arguing over him, at least not immediately after he awoke in GotM. I don't think there's been any reference to it in the books since, so I'm assuming that he still doesn't know about the one-soul-for-another deal. It would have to be Oponn, Hood or Shadowthrone that told him (ST had left by that point, I think, but if anyone can work out what happened it's old Kellanved), and it is possible he found out through them, offscreen.

[Puck]

o.O I always thought, it was Tattersail, who died in exchange for Paran...

[Dolorous Menhir]

It can't possibly be someone who died AFTER the resurrection, because it was an EXCHANGE of souls.

Besides, Tattersail's soul went into Silverfox, not Hood's realm. So it's doubly not her.

[Agraba]

Well Dolorous Menhir, Oponn could always have failed.

Here's a question: Why didn't Hood say to Oponn, "Screw you, buddy. You're tool's dead, go cry about it." Many people die at a god's hand.

[Illuyankas]

Because saving Paran and taking this other soul would almost certainly end up with a lot more deaths, and Hood getting more souls. Or something.

[dktorode]

I spose hood wont risk himself for a soul if he is getting one in exchange!
its like laying some chips down on a bet and all you can win is your own chips back!
So why risk it? either way he would have gotten a soul.

[vrai]

The promise didn't suggest the person killed in Paran's place be known to Paran, just that it be premature and/or meaningless. The deaths I see during the same time frame that directly involved the Twins were:

a) Talo Krafar (in Darujhistan) when the coin was bounced in front of Crokus.

Councillor Lim (in Darujhistan) when the intended victim was Lady Simtal.

I don't see either death as being meaningless, but the second one was definitely premature.

And, of course, Oponn could always have failed...

[Tempo]

Vrai,

Cant remember the exact quote, but it is stated that the death has to be of someone within Parans "shadow", which I took to mean somebody close to him.

[Illuyankas]

Toc! He was always shadowing Paran.

[Dolorous Menhir]

'The creature [a servant of Hood] grunted, shuffled close to look down at Paran. The eye sockets gllimmered faintly, as if old pearls hid within the shadows. "What, Oponn," it asked, as it studied Paran, "do you wish of my lord?"

"Nothing from me," the brother said, turning away.

"Sister?"

"Even for the gods," she replied, "death awaits, an uncertainty hiding deep within them." She paused. "Make them uncertain."

The creature cackled again, and again cut it short. "Reciprocity."

"Of course," the sister responded. "I'll look for another, a death premature. Meaningless, even."

The apparition was silent, then the head creaked in a nod. "In this mortal's shadow, of course."

"Agreed."

"My shadow?" Paran asked. "What does that mean, precisely?"

"Much sorrow, alas," the apparition said. "Someone close to you shall walk through Death's Gates...in your place."

"No. Take me instead, I beg of you."

"Be quiet!" snapped the apparition. "Pathos makes me ill."....'

- GotM mmpb p.138

So it's someone who is close to Paran, and (in my opinion) that someone must have died at around the same time period as this conversation took place, because it was an exchange (so, roughly, in the timeframe of GotM). Hood's servant agreed to the deal because it liked the idea of scaring some other gods, I suppose the implied targets are Shadowthrone and the Rope.

Felisin is in Ganoes' shadow, as a family member, but for reasons detailed in earlier posts it's not her.

Tattersail - she did die in GotM, but at the time of this conversation Paran hadn't even met her yet. And her death was (I think) the result of interference by a god with much longer-term goals than Oponn (probably K'rul). Plus her death, though premature, was of great import. So it doesn't meet the "meaningless" requirement.

Also suggested: Talo Krafar & Councilman Lim - zero association with Paran, both very significant. It makes no sense for it to be them.

The father makes the most sense. Although he is described as unwell, Tavore's words do not suggest he is terminal or at deaths door (Hood's gate?), so he can still satisfy the premature requirement. And he is the only family member of Paran's known to have died in the course of GotM (I know, a spoiler, but it's really not significant).

I don't see how it could mean anyone else.

edit: umm, Illuyankas, I don't know if you are playing a joke on people who've only read GotM, but (MoI spoiler)

Spoiler

Toc didn't die.

[Illuyankas]

I've just been very imaginative

No, I didn't want to spoil that for anyone.

Spoiler

Mind you, did SE know he would be bringing Toc back when he wrote that?

[vrai]

(This is long and not terribly well organized.)

I was looking hard at the reading conducted by Tattersail and Tayschrenn with the references to Darujhistan. The linkage is there - Orb (unaligned Paran), Virgin (HHD), Assassin (HHS), Oponn, and Crown (Darujhistan), hence my original suggestions.

However, accepting the notes subsequently posted are substantially correct, I went looking for someone else associated with Paran, but whose death occurred before Shadowthrone took possession of Chance (Paran's sword), thus forcing Oponn away from the 'game' and the opportunity to make good on the promise to Hood's emissary.

(Is this an acceptable premise? Is there an associated thread?)

These individuals were in Paran's shadow by 1154. Unfortunately I don't know how many months are in a Malaz year, and this can affect the following.

a) Whiskeyjack - no (too big a stretch you'll agree)
Fiddler - no
c) Surly - no
d) Felisen (natural choice, but no, see below)
e) Tavore (natural choice, but no, see below)
f) Father - no, see below.
g) Mother (natural choice, possible)

I exclude Tattersail (she was in the Mouse when Paran was observing the riots) as too big a stretch.

These individuals were added in 1161:

h) Lorn - no
i) Topper - no
j) Gamet - no (too big a stretch)

These were added in 1163:

k) Toc (too simple, I'm sure Erikson had his life story planned out)
l) Any of the Bridgeburners - no
m) Gear (big stretch, but it met Paran at Hood's Gate, then again in Dragnipur.)


All could have been in Paran's shadow when he visited Hood's Gate (1163), but his father almost certainly died shortly before the Year of the Cull (1163) - see the DG prolog (Felisen 'Speak with her, it's been months. Not even when Father died.'). The next time Felisen makes an appearance is in 1164, after Cotillion had took possession of Chance.

So, if we are to assume Oponn made good on the deal with Hood's emissary - and I don't accept that to be the case myself - and we put aside Darujhistan, then we are left with Paran's mother; a probable suicide as I recall, and within the possible timeframe.

Thanks for the earlier reviews.

[Dolorous Menhir]

I don't agree with your reasoning there, I still think it was the father. The mother died of a broken heart shortly after him.

And Rake killed Doan and Ganrod. Gear still lives.