[Dolorous Menhir]

Well, I think it's a bit strange that you attribute

Spoiler

Tavore becoming adjunct to the death of her father, rather than, you know, the death of the previous Adjunct.

[Wampyry]

I am on my second read of Eric's 7. I will add my vote to the father being the "someone close to you shall walk through Death's Gates - in your place"
Just before Paran hears voices he wanders through memories he thought long lost. His days of a child clinging to his mother's dress and taking his first tottering steps; the nights of storm when he raced down the chill hallway to his parents' bedroom; tiny feet slapping on the cold stones; holding the hands of his two sisters as they waited on the hard cobbles of the courtyard - waiting, waiting for someone. THE IMAGES SEEMED TO LURCH SIDEWAYS IN HIS HEAD.. His mother's dress? No, an old woman in the service of the household. Not his parents' bedroom , but those of the servants; and there in the courtyard with his sisters, they stood half the morning awaiting the arrival of their mother and father, TWO PEOPLE THEY BARELY KNEW.

It seems obivious, to me anyway, that Oponn shifted Paran's memories so guilt would not overwhelm him and he would not retaliate against those who caused his parents death - in exchange for his own

[Crow Clan Baby]

I don't really see why the death has to be soon. Hood strikes me as the kind of individual who knows he's going to get you anyway, and as such may be prepared to wait until the time is right.

Anyway, speaking of completely meaningless and premature deaths...

Spoiler

I can't account for "close to him", unless there's a fact we don't quite know yet, but "shadow" suggests Tiste Edur to me, which - bringing it together - makes Trull a possible candidate (assuming that Hood has any authority on Letheras, of course).

Just a wild theory...

[Dolorous Menhir]

That looks very unlikely to me, CCB. Why do people not see that an "exchange" of souls means someone died in Paran's place right there and then?

One soul to take another's place right away, not several months or years later, when Hood felt like it. And a character that had no relationship with Paran at all? No way.

[Crow Clan Baby]

Well I did say it was a wild theory, but you're right - highly unlikely.

[tharinock]

here are my thoughts. oponn made the deal, so chance would be a factor in who dies. now assume that they did not have to be a shadow at the time of agreement, just at the time of death. Tattersail makes sense. spoiler, not sure which book off top of head:

Spoiler

tayschren states he was grooming sail to be master of deck. sails death may have caused paran to become master of deck. has the feel of oponn to me

also the hounds of shadow make sense. right after the conversation, the gears in my head started whirling when shadowthrone tells paran "...i will be your shadow...". just a thought

[Khellendros]

Oh come on people, I know I'm a bit late to this debate, but I find it hard to fathom why it was being debated in the first place. The person who dies in Paran's place is Lorn. Totally, completely, and utterly pointless death caused by two people she had never seen before nor even understood why they were after her. At the same time, she was just beginning to regret her past life decisions and thinking that shacking up with Paran might be a good idea...and Paran quite obviously had the hots for her. Tattersail DIDN'T die, or to put it another way, her sould didn't pass through Hood's Gate as per the agreement, so that rules her out. And Paran's parents...it is such a brief mention, and it wasn't like Paran even cared overmuch. Whilst Lorn's even thinking as she's dying, to paraphrase, 'oh, how pointless, what a waste...' etc.

[waylander001]

So i love this debate ....... but did anyone ask SE himself yet?

[Bauchelain the Evil]

I have an awesome idea. Maybe hood meant Tattersail but then her soul reborn in Silverfox or

Spoiler

he meant Toc but Togg interfered first by saving him from the chaos warren and then ressurecting his soul in Anater body

______________________________

Quote

You can't be serious!
Death is always serious.

Paran and Hood

Quote

This rain will make the sea rise, yes?

Mallick Rel to Pearl

[Wickan Warrior]

Hi all, I'm new here and loving this forum, wish i'd have found it on my first read though these fantasic books! (might have saved myself alot of head straching!)

Anyway i was intriged by this debate, and so forgive me for putting my 10 pence in aswell.

In my opinion it was definaly Feltsin who died in exchange for Paran, I've read all the posts and so understand everybodys point, but i think some of them are floored. Paran's Father was not significate enough of a soul for Hood to take in Parans place and also was not in Paran's Shadow, (if anything Paran would be in his fathers shadow and As Paran's little sister Feltsin was definaltly in his shadow.)

I believe that the exchange needn't of happened instanly. The very nature of the God of death, screams of patenice and Hood could have easliy waited two years (the blink of an eye for a God) for feltsins Soul. Specaily if he saw the potentail of what she was to become.

There's a conversation in DhG between Mappo and Icarium that backs this up...
"Every ritual of resurrection I have ever heard attempted inevitably resulted in a price beyond reckoning. Even as he relinquishes a soul, Hood ensures he wins in the exchange."

The other reason i feel this way is because of the prolog in DhG,
"It was clear to Feltsin from where she and the others waited that the priest of Hood was striding directly towards her"............

" 'What does he want with me?' Feltsin asked in a whisper. 'What have i done to earn a priest of Hood's attention?' "

I realize that heboric thens states that the priest has come for him, but i don't belive that the priest did, could heboric have said that to protect feltsin??

The final thing that swayed me was Feltsin's dream's thoughout DhG (Rivers of blood) and her desire to meet death so eagerly yet is denied

Spoiler

unitl she becomes the godess (a soul worthy of Hoods patence and he winning the exchange)

(the last quote i promise ;0p)
"And now, i fear only Herboric and Kulp. It's said Gods fear mortals more than they do each other. Is that the source of my terror? Have I captured an echo of hood within me? The God of death must surely dream rivers of blood. Perhaps i have been his all this time.

There you go...... my ten pence. (for what its worth) hope that sparks some more debate on the subject.

[Warqueen]

Wickan Warrior;284348 said:

Hi all, I'm new here and loving this forum, wish i'd have found it on my first read though these fantasic books! (might have saved myself alot of head straching!)

Anyway i was intriged by this debate, and so forgive me for putting my 10 pence in aswell.

In my opinion it was definaly Feltsin who died in exchange for Paran, I've read all the posts and so understand everybodys point, but i think some of them are floored. Paran's Father was not significate enough of a soul for Hood to take in Parans place and also was not in Paran's Shadow, (if anything Paran would be in his fathers shadow and As Paran's little sister Feltsin was definaltly in his shadow.)

I believe that the exchange needn't of happened instanly. The very nature of the God of death, screams of patenice and Hood could have easliy waited two years (the blink of an eye for a God) for feltsins Soul. Specaily if he saw the potentail of what she was to become.

There's a conversation in DhG between Mappo and Icarium that backs this up...
"Every ritual of resurrection I have ever heard attempted inevitably resulted in a price beyond reckoning. Even as he relinquishes a soul, Hood ensures he wins in the exchange."

The other reason i feel this way is because of the prolog in DhG,
"It was clear to Feltsin from where she and the others waited that the priest of Hood was striding directly towards her"............

" 'What does he want with me?' Feltsin asked in a whisper. 'What have i done to earn a priest of Hood's attention?' "

I realize that heboric thens states that the priest has come for him, but i don't belive that the priest did, could heboric have said that to protect feltsin??

The final thing that swayed me was Feltsin's dream's thoughout DhG (Rivers of blood) and her desire to meet death so eagerly yet is denied

Spoiler

unitl she becomes the godess (a soul worthy of Hoods patence and he winning the exchange)

(the last quote i promise ;0p)
"And now, i fear only Herboric and Kulp. It's said Gods fear mortals more than they do each other. Is that the source of my terror? Have I captured an echo of hood within me? The God of death must surely dream rivers of blood. Perhaps i have been his all this time.

There you go...... my ten pence. (for what its worth) hope that sparks some more debate on the subject.

you win...I bow to your logic...it makes perfect sense...I wondered who took his place as well...I just got the impression it was more immediate

[Dolorous Menhir]

I'm impressed Wickan Warrior, that's a very persuasive argument. I just can't accept that such an interval of time would pass between Paran's resurrection and the taking of the replacement soul.

[Goblin]

I have to agree with Wicken Warrior. On my second read through Gardens; the first thought in my head after Oponn made the deal with Hood's servent was: "Oh! Thats why Felisin died the way she did!"

I think maybe the priest of Hood (fly man) was marking Felisin in some way. Hood sort of saying "dibs" on her soul. I'm not sure how else you can explain that scene. Besides the absolute terror it evoked (Deadhouse was the first book I read in the series, and that scene caturized my love for this saga), why else would that priest make such a showy jesture?

Also, wasn't it just bad bad luck that the whirlwind goddess was killed right before Felisin and Tavore where to have one on one combat. Bad luck indeed.

Furthermore, from another thread in this forum; if Hood is indeed a Jag, what better way to spit in Dryhnas eye? Wasn't she Tellan?

[Wampyry]

Wickan Warrior;284348 said:

Hi all, I'm new here and loving this forum, wish i'd have found it on my first read though these fantasic books! (might have saved myself alot of head straching!)

Anyway i was intriged by this debate, and so forgive me for putting my 10 pence in aswell.

In my opinion it was definaly Feltsin who died in exchange for Paran, I've read all the posts and so understand everybodys point, but i think some of them are floored. Paran's Father was not significate enough of a soul for Hood to take in Parans place and also was not in Paran's Shadow, (if anything Paran would be in his fathers shadow and As Paran's little sister Feltsin was definaltly in his shadow.)

I believe that the exchange needn't of happened instanly. The very nature of the God of death, screams of patenice and Hood could have easliy waited two years (the blink of an eye for a God) for feltsins Soul. Specaily if he saw the potentail of what she was to become.

There's a conversation in DhG between Mappo and Icarium that backs this up...
"Every ritual of resurrection I have ever heard attempted inevitably resulted in a price beyond reckoning. Even as he relinquishes a soul, Hood ensures he wins in the exchange."

The other reason i feel this way is because of the prolog in DhG,
"It was clear to Feltsin from where she and the others waited that the priest of Hood was striding directly towards her"............

" 'What does he want with me?' Feltsin asked in a whisper. 'What have i done to earn a priest of Hood's attention?' "

I realize that heboric thens states that the priest has come for him, but i don't belive that the priest did, could heboric have said that to protect feltsin??

The final thing that swayed me was Feltsin's dream's thoughout DhG (Rivers of blood) and her desire to meet death so eagerly yet is denied

Spoiler

unitl she becomes the godess (a soul worthy of Hoods patence and he winning the exchange)

(the last quote i promise ;0p)
"And now, i fear only Herboric and Kulp. It's said Gods fear mortals more than they do each other. Is that the source of my terror? Have I captured an echo of hood within me? The God of death must surely dream rivers of blood. Perhaps i have been his all this time.

There you go...... my ten pence. (for what its worth) hope that sparks some more debate on the subject.

Great post. Lucid and logical compiliation of facts. Have rep.
I will still stay with the father, it's more immediate and Paran's memory was
changed to reduce the guilt/pain. See post #44

[Wickan Warrior]

Thanks for the rep Wamp.

I salute you for sticking to your guns and stayin with the father.

It's what i love so much about erikson's writing, it makes the reader think and has the power to start debute's like this.

[Wickan Warrior]

I've been Thinking about this again,

Why would Hood exchange Paran's soul for his fathers? His Father was suffering a long term illness (i presume by that erikson means terminal) so would Hood make an exchange for a soul that was already on it's way to His gates? If he did then he's stupid! plus as i quoted in my previous post Hood always wins in His exchanges.

Sorry to keep on about it, it's almost like i'm obessed

[Aptorian]

Perhaps Parans first child will be stillborn...

[Kurt Montandon]

Aptorian;285719 said:

Perhaps Parans first child will be stillborn...

Assuming he ever gets any again ...