[Kimloc]

Great argument, Wickan. Forget the time lag--it was merely stated "the soul had to belong to someone in Paran's shadow, not "I want someone in Paran's shadow and I want them right now or next week or in less than a month."

[Dolorous Menhir]

I think the word "exchange" strongly implies an immediate trade. Not some future swap. Another soul for his, right there and then.

[Kimloc]

Dolorous Menhir;286321 said:

I think the word "exchange" strongly implies an immediate trade. Not some future swap. Another soul for his, right there and then.

Maybe. I agree with most of your posts I've seen. On this though, I believe Hood is being a more crafty deal maker than you're giving him credit for. Maybe he's had one too many conversations with ST or something.

[Epiph]

If Hood were willing to wait, why would he even care about making a deal? He'd know he was going to get Paran's soul in the end. The word "exchange" has a strong sense of immediacy.

Besides, as per Wickan Warrior's resurrection quote, the father's death has echoing consequences. Because of the father's death, the mother kills herself, and, as Didius pointed out, this left no option for Tavore but to throw Felisin to the dogs. Then Felisin essentially caused the 7 Cities rebellion.

Looked at that way, the death of the father fits the criteria from all the quotes that have been cited so far--his death was inconsequential and premature, he was in Paran's shadow, he could have died at exactly the moment of Paran's resurrection, and his death catalyzed a series of events that led to countless deaths in the rebellion, the Chain of Dogs, the Y'Ghatan fire, and then the plague.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Exactly. It's obvious the father's soul was taken in exchange.

[Wickan Warrior]

Quote

Epiph,
"Looked at that way, the death of the father fits the criteria from all the quotes that have been cited so far--his death was inconsequential and premature, he was in Paran's shadow, he could have died at exactly the moment of Paran's resurrection, and his death catalyzed a series of events that led to countless deaths in the rebellion, the Chain of Dogs, the Y'Ghatan fire, and then the plague."

I think I've just been shot down in flames :eek:

Well put Epiph

[Epiph]

Thanks, though all I really did was reorganize and restate information that everyone else had been saying all along. So props to everyone whose theses I stole.

[Khellendros]

But surely, if anything, Paran would have been in his father's shadow, not the other way around? I really do think that Erikson would have highlighted it more than that - a la Lorn's oh why did they kill me, it's so meaningless monologue right before she dies.

[Epiph]

If Erikson highlighted anything, it was exactly what he meant by "in Paran's shadow":

Dolorous Menhir/GotM mmpb p.138 said:

The apparition was silent, then the head creaked in a nod. "In this mortal's shadow, of course."

"Agreed."

"My shadow?" Paran asked. "What does that mean, precisely?"

"Much sorrow, alas," the apparition said. "Someone close to you shall walk through Death's Gates...in your place."

IE, "In this mortal's shadow" means someone close to him, whether they are more powerful or older or senior or whatever. If, for example, Dujek was close to Paran, it would not matter that he was Paran's commander; he would be in Paran's shadow.

By your way of thinking, Lorn is certainly not in Paran's shadow, either.

By my way of thinking, she is. Her death is also premature and has far-reaching consequences. But it is far from inconsequential, and it doesn't occur at the correct time for an "exchange" to take place.

If I were to argue with me, I would take issue with the meaning of "close" rather than the meaning of "in this mortal's shadow." My preemptive response is that Paran's reaction seems to indicate an understanding that "close" doesn't mean physical proximity. And I doubt physical proximity matters much to Hood, though I have nothing to back that up, and Paran is a bleeding heart, so I could be wrong.

[Khellendros]

I agree that 'close' in this case does not mean physical proximity. However, you have to take into account that Paran and Lorn have been working together for over three years - in essence, in those three years, Paran's closest relationship has been with Lorn (and both at one point or another admitted to themselves that they could have had feelings for the other if the circumstances had been different). So I don't think you can say that Paran would not have been affected by Lorn's death.

What do you mean by - "the death doesn't occur at the correct time"? What is the correct time? I'd also have to take issue with you saying that Lorn's death was of signifcance. The main events had already been played out, and Lorn's death didn't change those events one way or the other. Her being killed by Meese and Irilta, two people she had never met before nor even knew why they killed her (I believe she her only thoughts were they there were a couple of robbers), only moments before Paran reaches the scene, sounds pretty tragic and meaningless to me.

[Epiph]

I subscribe to the view that the person who dies for Paran would need to die at the same time that Paran is resurrected. Like I said before, the word "exchange" has a strong sense of immediacy.

So, no matter what the relationship between Lorn and Paran, I don't think Lorn fits the other criteria, namely immediate death and that her death was not meaningless. Her death may have been without meaning to her, but I don't think the death of the Adjunct to the Malazan Empress can ever be said to be "meaningless".

[Khellendros]

Read it more carefully, Hood's servant says that the type of death has to be without meaning, not its greater consequences. For example, dying whilst saving a baby from a runaway train would hold some meaning. Dying by accidentally walking off a cliff because you were distracted by something in the other direction would be meaningless. Lorn's death was the latter because there was no need to kill her at that particular time. She was already running away. Paran being only moments away at the time makes it all the more tragic and thus meaningless because if he'd say, jogged, he might have got there in time to save her.

The word "exchange" doesn't inevitably imply that it has to happen immediately. Consider a loan. Do you pay back the money as soon as you have it? And additionally, there is no way to even know if Paran's father's death happened straight after Paran's resurrection.

[Epiph]

You make a good case, and I grant your point about meaningless deaths, but I still feel that "exchange" implies immediacy. And while we can't know for sure that Paran's father died at the same time, we also don't know that he didn't. However, we know Lorn didn't.

[Wickan Warrior]

Thought i'd see if anyone was still interested in this thread...

I've just finsheded a re-read of HoC and all the way though i couldn't help but notice things that backed up my opinion that it was in fact poor old Felisin that died for Paran.

It seems to me that there are only two arguements that hold any weight, they are that it was Felisin or Paran's Father.

The case for his father hinges on two facts.
1. The word "Exchange" meaning there and then, and assuming that Hood would not wait for any lenth of time for the soul he wanted.

2. The fact that his fathers death would have have catastropic consequences and lead to Tavoure to become the adjuct and sendin Felisin to the Mines, which in turn leads to "countless deaths".

Now, while unfortunatly i can't discredit the first point (much), the second point doesn't hold up against any kind of scrutiny.

For example when Gamet is remembering why he aloud himself to be drawn in to Tavore's entourage.... "He had been driven by macabre curiosity. Tavore had ordered the arrests of her parents, had sent her younger sister into the horrors of the otataral mines. For her careers sake. Her Brother, Paran had in some way been disgraced on Genabackis. He had subsequently deserted. An embarrassment, granted, but surely not sufficient to warrant Tarvore's reaction."

So, Paran's father was still alive when, a) Felisin was sent to the mines, Tevore had already become the new adjuct and c) (more importantly) after Paran and One Arm's Host had reportedly deserted. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the meeting between Hood's servant and oppon happen well before the bidgebunners deserted?? therefore there is not a immediate exchange of souls.


Then on the other hand there's the case for Felisin. This hinges on a few more facts than that of the case for the father. Most of these facts are covered in Post *52,

There are a few Quotes towards the end of HoC that state that Hood himself is walking about?
"Hood was close - aye, the God himself"

" 'Did you,' he asked Quick Ben, 'have anything to do with the diversion?' 'No. Nor did Hood, Although the hoary bastard's arrived'

He didn't make a personal apperance during the chain of dogs, or at pale. Why would he decide show himself here at this perticular time, (when he wood be quite venerable with all that going on?) the only thing i can think of that makes any sense was that he was there in person to collect on the exchange that he made for paran's soul.


The only sticking point i could find with the felisin arguement is

Spoiler

that her death as the whirlwind Goddess

was niether meaningless or insignificant. Untill.....

Spoiler

I re-read this little gem. I'd forgotten that the whirlwind goddess was in fact killed by Korbolo's Talon's while she was chained in the black wood forest. so therefore when Tavore killed sha'ik she was infact killing her sister. these quotes say it better than i can..."she is gone. i have been... abandoned. I was Sha'ik, once. Now, I am Felisin once more. And here, walking towards me, is the one who betrayed me. My sister.

"And Felisin stuggled against it - that sudden, overwhelming weight. Struggled to raise her arms - unthinking of how that motion would be received. 'Tavore, it's all right-'

She never finished that sentence, Tavore killed her before she got the chance. I Think she was about to surrender. making Her death all the more pre-mature and meaningless.

Anyway, hope this all makes sense.

i enjoyed the re read of HoC, all the more because i did'nt like it the first time, so it was well worth the effort. now you can all begin the flaming:heyhey:

[Dolorous Menhir]

That is a good sticking point - the Paran parents were still alive when Felisin was condemned?

I've got to say that doesn't really agree with what I remember. Which is that the parents were both already dead (of illness and implied suicide) before Tavore became Adjunct and the nobles were culled. That's why they weren't around to protect Felisin, that's why they weren't on the chain with Felisin and Baudin when they were dragged around the city.

Ok, I've just looked up the relevant passages in DG (note, even more spoilers than there are already in this thread; Mods, maybe it should be moved, to HoC at least):

Quote

'Speak with her [Tavore], it's been months. Not even when Father died.'

- thoughts of Felisin, p. 29

Father Paran is already dead when we meet Felisin on the chain. No mention of an arrest. Her separation from Tavore suggests that she has already been Adjunct for some time.

Quote

'Your brother disappearing on Genebackis took the life out of your father...so I've heard.'

- Heboric to Felisin, p.31

Heboric explicitly links the actions of Ganoes to the death of his father.

Quote

'Sister Tavore, did our brother's disappearance cut you so deep? How great his failing you must imagine, to seek this recompense...and then, to make your loyalty absolute, you chose between me and Mother for the symbolic sacrifice. Didn't you realise that Hood stood on the side of both choices? At least mother is with her beloved husband now...'

- thoughts of Felisin, p. 32

My reading: Tavore became Adjunct, and had to make a sacrifice of one family member to prove herself. As the choices were Felisin and the mother, the father must have already been dead. This seems to contradict Gamet's mention of an arrest. The mother then killed herself too, leaving Felisin on the chain at the start of DG.

Ok, to rebut your specific points:

Wickan Warrior said:

So, Paran's father was still alive when,

a) Felisin was sent to the mines

Not according to the quotes given above. He had already been dead for a while at least when DG started.

Quote

Tevore had already become the new adjunct

Iffy. You could read it either way.

Quote

c) (more importantly) after Paran and One Arm's Host had reportedly deserted. Correct me if i'm wrong but didn't the meeting between Hood's servant and oppon happen well before the bidgebunners deserted?? therefore there is not a immediate exchange of souls.

Ok, you've got me there. Heboric attributes the father's death to Paran's desertion - so he must have died after that. But his resurrection occurred much earlier in GotM, by a period of at least several weeks.

I'll fall back on this - the death of Paran's father is very clearly linked to Paran's actions on Genebackis, and occurs in roughly the same timeframe (at the very least, much closer in time than the death of Felisin). I don't have the quotes to prove his father died at exactly the same time Ganoes was revived. But I think we can't deny there's a connection between the events. Much more so than with the death of Felisin, three books later.

His death also seems to have had no great consequence. Tavore would have become Adjunct even if he had lived, she would still have aided the cull of the nobility, including Felisin most likely, if he had lived.

You can't really make those arguments for Felisin's death, can you? Ok, she was no longer the instrument of Drhyna, since Dhryjna had just died. She was still the leader of the rebellion, at least.

[OtataralDragon]

Well, the way Dujek tells it in MoI, Papa Paran's death was directly linked to the cull of the nobility. Nothing there about any illness, but then he doesn't give cause of death at all.


MoI, chapter 4, p. 158 pb:

"We've received news from the empire, Captain."

"How?"

Dujek shrugged. "Nothing direct, of course, but our sources are reliable. Laseen's cull of the nobility proved... efficient." He hesitated, then said, "The Empress has a new Adjunct..."

Paran slowly nodded. There was nothing surprising in that. Lorn was dead. The position needed to be filled. "Have you news of my family, sir?"

"Your sister Tavore salvaged what she could, lad. The Paran holdings in Unta, the outlying estates... most of the trade agreements. Even so... your father passed away, and a short while later, your mother elected... to join him on the other side of Hood's gate. I am sorry, Ganoes..."

[....]

"There's more, I'm afraid. Your, uh, outlawry left your House exposed. I don't think your sister saw much in the way of options."

[....]

"I beg you, sir, if Felisin is dead, tell me so and leave out the details."

Dujek shook his head. "No, she was spared that, Captain. That is what I am trying to tell you."

[....]

"Even as the new Adjunct, Tavore's powers were limited. She could not be seen to reveal any particular... favouritism - orso I choose to read her intentions..."

Paran closed his eyes. Adjunct Tavore. Well, sister, you knew your own ambitions. "Felisin?"

"The Otataral Mines, Captain."

[drinksinbars]

lorn died for paran. she even comments on how her death is so pointless and then he finds her and carries her back to the estate. its a first book and rereading gotm you can tell it carries with it a lot of the usual fanasy flair which is thankfully stripped away for the other books.

but its defo lorn. DEFO!!!

[Dolorous Menhir]

OtataralDragon;322180 said:

Well, the way Dujek tells it in MoI, Papa Paran's death was directly linked to the cull of the nobility. Nothing there about any illness, but then he doesn't give cause of death at all.

I don't understand, O-Dragon. The quotes you give don't link the father's death to the cull at all. They just say that the father passed away (read: not violently) and Tavore tried to salvage what she could of their holdings.

[OtataralDragon]

Dolorous Menhir;322908 said:

I don't understand, O-Dragon. The quotes you give don't link the father's death to the cull at all. They just say that the father passed away (read: not violently) and Tavore tried to salvage what she could of their holdings.

It's possible I read too much into it, but it seemed clearly linked to me. The way Dujek goes straight from talking about the effectiveness of the cull, to saying that Tavore saved what she could, but "even so" their father died... Saying that he died despite Tavore saving most of what they owned implies that his death was linked to losing as much as they did. Sounds like the strain was too much for him.

(Verdict: Death by injured pride. )

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

There's good arguments here for several different possibilities. I think the father sounds most plausible, but that is only if you assume that the death had to coem at the same time as the resurrection. I don't know if that's the case. It could be, but that's an assumption.