[Wickan Warrior]

Dolorous Menhir;322069 said:

I'll fall back on this - the death of Paran's father is very clearly linked to Paran's actions on Genebackis, and occurs in roughly the same timeframe (at the very least, much closer in time than the death of Felisin). I don't have the quotes to prove his father died at exactly the same time Ganoes was revived. But I think we can't deny there's a connection between the events. Much more so than with the death of Felisin, three books later.

His death also seems to have had no great consequence. Tavore would have become Adjunct even if he had lived, she would still have aided the cull of the nobility, including Felisin most likely, if he had lived.

You can't really make those arguments for Felisin's death, can you? Ok, she was no longer the instrument of Drhyna, since Dhryjna had just died. She was still the leader of the rebellion, at least.

Was Felsin leader of the rebellion though? Or was that S'heilk? There a a few times that they are referred to as seperate enities, almost split personality. Very simiar to Cotillion/Sorry...

Wasn't she just a young girl who was in the wrong place at the wrong time?

Wasn't she just someone that leaman pushed into the role of the goddess re-born? In a rush because the old S'heilk had just had a crossbow bolt though her forehead.

Isn't she referred as 'Just a figue head' of the rebellion many times. Don't forget that after the Chains of Dogs had occured the rebellion was petty much a farce, with so many different characters partaking in it for there own indivual agenda's.

The rebellion was pretty much already over when Tavore confronts Felsin, what with the dog slayers gone and the death of Dhyjna. I think that it's almost poetic that Tavore didn't kill the leader of the rebellion as she thought she was doing, but infact she was killing her sister, whom she'd sent topper and that other one (sorry cant remember her name, the red blade woman) to find and rescue her from the mines. Thus her death was completly pointless and utterly meaningless.

If Hood understands irony, then it's almost perfect!

On a bit of a side note, I was also wondering if Hood would have had any clue that Paran would turn out to be the master of the deck? and would that have been the reason he agreed to the exchange of souls?

[drinksinbars]

doubt hood would have as tattersail was being groomed at the time.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Here's a thought, it might have been mentioned before, but I'm on my way to bed and don't feel like reading the whole thread again. It could have been Hairlock. Whoever died was said to be in Paran's hadow, not a close friend or relative. Hairlock was. Paran foiled him when he tried to steal the Hound's soul in Tattersail's room, and he was trying to kill Paran when he died. QB cut his connection, Hairlock begged Paran to throw him in the warren, Paran refused, so Hairlock died. Killed by the Hounds, in fact. It fits.

[Pkdragon]

I'd just like to point out one thing. It's been AGES since I've read GotM as a whole, but I did reread the scene with the bargain a couple days ago. The key thing I read is the way Oponn answered the bargain.

"Of course," the sister responded. "I'll look for another, a death premature. Meaningless,even."

Maybe I'm reading the word choice too closely, but the fact that she says "Look For Another" makes it possible in my eyes that the death could take awhile to happen. Mainly because Oponn is the one choosing the death, not Hood, and it implies that Oponn doesn't know exactly who they're going to choose at the time. They could easily take their time figuring out who exactly to trade, and how. Especially because I seem to remember they were fairly busy in GotM. And as others have stated, Hood seems to be rather patient. I can see this letting someone like Lorn (Maybe even Felisin) be perfectly viable. It means that the exchange doesn't have to take place at that moment.

Heck, I can see Oponn dragging out the deal just to make things more uncertain for everyone involved. >_>

As another note, we're talking ascendants here. They probably see time much differently than people. I wouldn't be surprised if Gardens of the Moon was a blink of the eye to their perception, so Lorn's death could very well be close enough to the time of Paran's resurrection to count.

[Wickan Warrior]

nice point Pk,

The fact that oponn could have been responible for picking the replacement concurs with the luck that was needed to put Feltsin in the right place at the right time. The amount of coinsidence's required to get Feltsin from the mines to rakau, just in time to replace sh'liek was immense and scream's of Oponn's influence.

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

Pkdragon;336139 said:

I'd just like to point out one thing. It's been AGES since I've read GotM as a whole, but I did reread the scene with the bargain a couple days ago. The key thing I read is the way Oponn answered the bargain.

"Of course," the sister responded. "I'll look for another, a death premature. Meaningless,even."

Maybe I'm reading the word choice too closely, but the fact that she says "Look For Another" makes it possible in my eyes that the death could take awhile to happen. Mainly because Oponn is the one choosing the death, not Hood, and it implies that Oponn doesn't know exactly who they're going to choose at the time. They could easily take their time figuring out who exactly to trade, and how. Especially because I seem to remember they were fairly busy in GotM. And as others have stated, Hood seems to be rather patient. I can see this letting someone like Lorn (Maybe even Felisin) be perfectly viable. It means that the exchange doesn't have to take place at that moment.

Heck, I can see Oponn dragging out the deal just to make things more uncertain for everyone involved. >_>

As another note, we're talking ascendants here. They probably see time much differently than people. I wouldn't be surprised if Gardens of the Moon was a blink of the eye to their perception, so Lorn's death could very well be close enough to the time of Paran's resurrection to count.

I'm glad I came back and checked this thread out again. Nice point, well said.

[Wampyry]

Paran's memories of his parents were changed. Has to be a reason for that.

I am on my second read of MBotF. I will add my vote to the father being the "someone close to you shall walk through Death's Gates - in your place"
Just before Paran hears voices he wanders through memories he thought long lost. His days of a child clinging to his mother's dress and taking his first tottering steps; the nights of storm when he raced down the chill hallway to his parents' bedroom; tiny feet slapping on the cold stones; holding the hands of his two sisters as they waited on the hard cobbles of the courtyard - waiting, waiting for someone. THE IMAGES SEEMED TO LURCH SIDEWAYS IN HIS HEAD.. His mother's dress? No, an old woman in the service of the household. Not his parents' bedroom , but those of the servants; and there in the courtyard with his sisters, they stood half the morning awaiting the arrival of their mother and father, TWO PEOPLE THEY BARELY KNEW.

It seems obivious, to me anyway, that Oponn shifted Paran's memories so guilt would not overwhelm him and he would not retaliate against those who caused his parents death - in exchange for his own

[Raymond Luxury Yacht]

I had forgotten about that. Good point.

[chaosek]

In HoC Gamet notes that Tarvore had her parents arrested. It seems that would contradict the theory that they were the ones exchanged for Paran. I'd go with Lorn, cause Paran's 'defection' sealed the faith of the house Paran, but Lorn's death made Tarvore adjunct and made her ship Feltsin away.

[Bauchelain the Evil]

Paran's parents were already dead when Laseen ordered the cull of the nobilty. Besides in MoI Dujek said that apart from Felisin being arrested the house of Paran had been spared.

[chaosek]

That was indeed what I thought, but upon a reread of HoC, Gamet seems to think otherwise. I tend to believe him, since he was there.

Page 288,
'And within that massive structure huddled the last child of Paran, her parants gone since the arrests earlier that day, her brother lost and presumably dead on a distant continent, her sister....'

Page 289/290, same
This is Tavore's answer? What of her parents? There was nothing to suggest that their fate would be any different from that of the others who'd been rounded up.'

and page 293:
'Tavore had ordered the arrests of her parents, had sent her younger sister into the horrors of the Otataral mines'.

This all because page 294:
There were rumors that the lad [Paran] had been an agent of Adjunct Lorn's and that his desertion had led, ultimately, to the woman's death in Darujhistan.

Bantam paperback, chapter five.

Hence the assumption that Lorn was the one to die for Paran, cause the death of his parents is an effect from that

[Red King]

Wow, this thread has been very enlighting indeed. So many possibilities to who could of been the replacement for Paran that sparks so many unique ideas. I mean, before I read HoC, I just attributed it to Lorn. The line that she spoke, that has been repeated several times on this thread alone, was that her death was pointless. And you really have to consider Wickan Warriors train of thought and how it can logically connect with someone like Felisin. But its also mind blowing that there are several more options that never occur to some (such as myself) like Gear, his father ( must not have been paying attention) and a few others i've already forgotten unfortunatly.

If you also consider the fact that death in our world is rather patient (dropping diseases that don't kill for months, sometimes even years later) and it constantly described as being a force that will wait on anyone until they die. Hood maybe be a more phycial and apparent force, but he would still require A LOT of patience since not all of the people who pass through his gate die in the field, and not all of the people who pass through his gate this way are just nobodys. So, Hood deserves more credit to his patience and his abiltiy to plan ahead and spot a soul that is potentially greater than or equal to Parans soul.

I hope I filled you're brains with something you might have thought would be an epic lead up to some awesome revelations, but my vote is still on Lorn. And I also understand how exchange can easily mean immediate trade, but, not always. So, enjoy.

- Ultor

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Old thread, I know, but I just finished HoC...

I always assumed it was Tattersail, because of this:

The original bargain:
'Of course,' the sister responded. 'I'll look for another, a death premature. Meaningless, even.'
The apparition was silent, then the head creaked in a nod. 'In this mortal's shadow, of course.'
'Agreed.'
'My shadow?' Paran asked. 'What does that mean, precisely?'
'Much sorrow, alas,' the apparition said. 'Someone close to you, shall walk through Death's Gates… in your place.'
'No. Take me instead, I beg of you.'

Later:
Arriving, he dismounted and strode up to what he now saw were two bodies, one gigantic. Both had been burned beyond recognition, but Paran held no illusions as to who the other was. All that come close to me, all that I care for… 'Tattersail,' he whispered, then fell to his knees.

The "sorrow" wording seems to imply that "close to you" means it will be someone Paran cares about, and has nothing to do with physical proximity. That would seem to rule out Lorn.

Felisin would seem to be a good candidate, except she doesn't die until 3 books later. And Paran's parents aren't even mentioned until DG, are they? If this is referring to one or both of his parents' deaths, the link is as clear as mud.

I still think Tattersail is the best candidate.

Premature death? Check. She was supposed to survive to become Master of the Decks.

Meaningless? Check. Death didn't stop her. She was still able to fulfill an important role as Silverfox.

In Paran's shadow? Check. He was close to her…and perhaps she was also in his shadow in the sense that he became Master of the Decks instead of her.

While it's true that Hood does not ultimately obtain Tattersail's soul, "walk through Death's gates" could just be a metaphor for dying. Or maybe she literally entered Hood's realm prior to ending up in Kruppe's dream warren. In any case, remember these are the trickster gods that Hood's emissary is dealing with. Just because the apparition THINKS his boss will end up with the proxy doesn't mean it will turn out that way…

[Rupert]

I always thought that "meaningless" meant something like the opposite of death in a meaningful,eventful moment;something like slipping and hitting the head had on a random day.

[Kanese S's]

It's not Tattersail. She doesn't go through Death's Gate. Hood doesn't give a damn if people die if he doesn't get to collect the soul after. Plus her death wasn't meaningless.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Kanese S, on 07 June 2012 - 11:49 PM, said:

It's not Tattersail. She doesn't go through Death's Gate. Hood doesn't give a damn if people die if he doesn't get to collect the soul after. Plus her death wasn't meaningless.

But you make it sound like Hood "gets to pick" who the proxy will be, and that is not at all what is suggested in the passage I quoted. Hood is forced to allow a bargain because a god killed Paran. "Chance" chooses the proxy.

You're right about Tattersail's death not being meaningless in the traditional sense of the term. But it IS "without consequence" in the sense that a Master of the Deck is STILL chosen and her death does not stop her from fulfilling an equally consequential role. Remember, this is Oponn speaking here. Loopholes, twisted words, and other shenanigans...it's what Oponn does throughout the whole book for crying out loud. Why are we expecting them to be above board here?

Seriously, if Paran's parents are the proxy, that has to be the most anticlimactic resolution of a foreshadowed event in all of fantasy fiction. They're barely mentioned. I don't think they even appear onscreen. Tattersail's death makes for a much more elegant explanation. And the "all that come close to me" dialogue seems like a slap in the face clue.

[Kanese S's]

At the time, they were much closer to him than, say, someone he'd never met. When the exchange happened, he'd never met Tattersail. Plus there's the matter of the replacement of his memories to ease his pain and guilt.

Tattersail's death was intentional, and her soul didn't travel more than a few feet when she died, from her body to the stitched together remains of Nightchill. Her death didn't happen by chance, nor was it meaningless. If any god was interfering, it was K'rul, not Hood or Oponn, given later events.

[Kruppe's snacky cakes]

Kanese S, on 08 June 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

When the exchange happened, he'd never met Tattersail.

So? There's nothing in the text to indicate that it has to be someone he already knows at the time the deal is struck. The implication is only that it will be someone he cares about. He knows and cares about Tattersail by the time she dies.

While your other objections are perfectly reasonable, all of the circumstance you describe fit within my "loophole" argument.

Anyway, since GotM was conceived several years prior to the later books and was (as I understand it) not originally planned to have sequels...it just makes more sense to me that SE would have intended for this to be resolved within the same book.

(Actually, I would have preferred to believe that Felisin fulfilled the exchange. I think that would be the more heartwrenching way to have gone with the story. I would love to believe that SE had that planned 9 years in advance and that Paran's inner monologue when he finds Tattersail's body is just a red herring.)

In any case, given that the issue is ambiguous enough to have inspired 5 pages of speculation, I find your confidence oddly admirable. You are clearly more convinced of your position than I am of mine. Bonus points for that.