[Lister of Smeg]

I'm not sure that Rel getting power was done all that quickly. Yes, he rose from "prisoner" to his current position quite fast, but we don't know how long he's had strong influence in the Claw. Remember in Deadhouse Gates that there were no Claw present in Aren to stop his influence over Pormqual? That could well show that this has been in the planning for years and Rel has only recently managed to put all his plans into action.

[presumingpete]

Danyah said:

Laseen is not deformed in any way. allmost all the subjects of the CG are deformed. Remember the Teblor Gods, Munug, Gethol, Tene Baralta, Rhulad. So I am not even sure if Mallick is in league with the CG. If the CG would take Laseen, he would first make her deformed is some way, by manipulating someone to attack her or something.

but then karsa isnt exactly deformed, yes he has tattoos on him but that doesnt make him deformed.

[Red_orbiT]

No, but he's got that little curse of his that makes all the souls of those he kills hang onto his back...

[Cause]

I would not call het stupid but I think she lacks the genius of the old emperor who started an empire out of tavern. I think shes finished, she seems to have trapped herself with no way out. She used rell and dom to sully coltaines name in the hopes of rasing tavores I think, But than as tavore says to do so she had to raise the name of dom and rell as heroes. twisting truth upside down. Now she cant get rid of them openly not the 'true' heroes of the chain of dogs and with the claw infiltarted she cant use them safly iether and now the 14th and dujeks host have abandoned empire.

[Ellestra]

I was thinking about Laseen lately and this is part of what I wrote about her - tings that bother me.

She seems to be full of contradictions.
But there are always two versions of the story.

One version:
Kellanved was mad, stopped caring about Empire, left it, it was going to fell apart, so she killed him and Dancer to save it.
She was preparing Empire for the fight with Chained God and it’s minions from the beginning that’s why she inverted power structure in the army, allowed the purges to keep it from becoming overly corrupt, let the rebellion play so it was crushed before the showdown, so it wouldn’t strike Malazans from the back.
She knows how to chose good people – Dujek, Tayschrenn, Tavore.

Other:
She was power hungry and destroyed everything, killed her friends and a lot of citizens after that to get and keep power.
She allowed the slaughter of citizens because she was unable to keep order any other way – she lets crowds have their fun because she doesn’t have the strength to keep order.
She is extremely bad at choosing personnel – Pormqual, Korbolo Dom, Mallick Rel, Pearl. She cannot inspire loyalty – unlike Emperor who did it with ease and even in former enemies. She lets those who are loyal down – Tavore, Kalam, Coltaine, Dujek and Whiskeyjack.


Only RAFO can really tell but…some questions still bother me:

The whole not killing/letting Rel and Dom back to power. How could she not know/see/predict what it leads to? She seems smart and far-sighted in other cases – Panion, CG, where Tavore and the fleet was. Then somtimes she seems completly daft.

Laseen knew what will happen when 14th gets back to Empire, she ordered it knowing people will try to kill them all and especially Wickans, but she pretended stupid and ordered them to disarm.
She could have dealt with them in Unta but he made it so it was with Korbolo Dom and Mallick Rel there – were they suppose to see that – the falling out with her adjunct?

What that look she shared with Tavore meant? Everyone there looked for subtext in Empress’s words. Assumed thing she meant but couldn’t tell in the presence of Dom and Rel. Maybe Tavore also got more then she said?
Pearl and Kalam assume she offers them Claw for killing Rel and Dom, but Rel probably knew it too, and now thst they both dead she is powerless, right?
But she was Claw she could do it herself. In fact did it before.

Tavore went away and didn’t try fix the Empire or help the Empress.
They’ve just been betrayed and attacked but they are not going to revenge or rebel – they could try to kill her or go back to Quon Tali and start an uprising. They also could go and try to find a place to rest/live/make their own empire. Instead they go on a mission to save the world… just like Dujek's Host only better staged.

Poor Laseen. Look at her - Tayschrenn imprisoned, Claw overtaken, or loyal to her dead or outlawed. She has been overthrown and Empire overtaken – just a puppet now, right?
So maybe there’s a plan to make her look powerless and incompetent and Malazan Empire in decline and full of infighting. Look weak. Be underestimated.

Maybe it’s a part of something bigger. After all Ammanas seems not to be as crazy as everybody thinks. And he has a plan. He planed for this for a long time. Even before his death. Cotillion admitted they were done with the Empire, so why revenge on Surly? To make it look like they hate her, perhaps? Maybe she figured it out, maybe she was on the plan, maybe the whole revenge thing was just a hoax – after all it was suspiciously easily abandoned.

Tayschrenn also doesn't seem too concerned at being imprisoned.

It's all too suspicius.

[Ellestra]

Phobos;150339 said:

I don't know... but this is the most interesting paragraph imho. Since the "Kalam setting out to kill Laseen" incident, I have the feeling that Laseen and the Shadowthrone-Cotillion group are actually working together. The only situation that bothers me (and that my poor memory can still recall - and please forgive me for it - after all this time ) is the "My poor Wickans" sentence of Kellanved.

Laseen is one of the most ambivalent figures in the Malazan series, but something whispers in my ear, that she is only supposed to look bad. I think we might be surprised in the end.

Maybe he forgot to discuss the details

[tiam]

Also what i think she really needed was Kalam to take control of the claw. That would have solved all her problems. She had his loyalty knew hed purge the claw of the black glove (the MOST unimaginative name in the entire malaz series btw) and kil Dom and rel. i know maybe not that exact night but he could of really. And if he did Laseen would still be Empress in a couple of years

[Tempo]

Is it the case then, that all of Laseens actions have been part of a grander scheme. More specifically, will it be revealed in later books that Laseen wanted the 14th and the adjunct to become independant of the empire to meet some other, greater threat?
After all, if the claw was infiltrated, then it was not necessarily Laseen that ordered the adjuncts group to be ambushed on the way back to the harbour, and there were far too many meaningfull but unspoken words passing about in that meeting between the adjunct and the empress.

[Waylander]

This is true, she offered Kalam a line but he didn't take it. But make no mistake, she knew Tavore was a target for the assassin's bow.