[Dolorous Menhir]

Opinion here seems to be that because Traveller (who people seem to be convinced is Dassem Ultor) has the sword Vengeance he will fight Anomander Rake, as per the quote

"the Knight of House Dark, striding a doomed path to face his own vengeance" - obviously not exact, but you get the gist

It's an appealing notion, but I can't actually think of a reason for the two to fight. Rake's conflict with the Empire came largely after First Sword Dassem's disappearance (Pale was the first time he actually fought Malazans; Ultor was out of the picture about 10 years before, by GOTM timelines).

And from Travellers actions on the Edur throne island (honours Andarist, brother of Anomander; seems well-disposed to Andii in general; doesn't run around voicing threats against Rake's life) I don't see any reason for this fight to happen, apart from that single quote. Put it like that and it really doesn't seem that convincing.

----

A simple question, who are the four Dragon Soletaken Andii, as seen fighting Raest with red-skinned Silanah in GOTM? There are three confirmed Soletaken Dragons among the race, Rake, Korlat and Orfantal. I would add Serrat to this list, she's probably soletaken, as the "second highest among the Andii" according to Rake (a dubious claim, since she spent GOTM getting whipped by everyone she ran into until Vorcan finally put her out of her misery).

The problem is, Rake and Serrat were elsewhere when the four blacks flew against Raest (Rake at the Garden Fete, Serrat roaming the city looking for someone to beat her up and steal her lunch money). This only leaves Orfantal and Korlat, so who were the other two? It doesn't say Raest kills any, only that two are "driven away". Who were they?

Just to add to the confusion, when the dragons are flying over Coral in MoI, there are only four: Orfantal & Korlat flying from the assembled armies, Silanah and another black (which I thought was Rake) flying from Moons Spawn itself. So two black dragons are missing, which would be conveniently explained if Raest killed them. But he didn't.

----

A totally different tangent: Nok's conversation with Tavore.

I think he was lying about portions of it; specifically Hawl, his wife, and "Ameron".

I believe he knew Hawl was alive, and lied about her death because she was a Talon who'd been in hiding for a long time. So presumably he wasn't going to let slip to Tavore that she was still live and kicking, what with Tavore being an agent of the woman who rode the Claw to power while exterminating every Talon she could find.

Or maybe he really though she was dead for ninety-some years, and she never told him because he was a bad hubby. But that's not very interesting.

As for "Ameron", I think Nok made him up, or at least the name. That's the only time in all five books the name has been mentioned (cue someone with counterexample), which seems pretty remarkable given the amount of time we've spent with Old Guard and Family members like Dujek, Whiskeyjack, Duiker and Cotillion himself. I think "Ameron" is just an anagram of "onearm" and that he was either a real person that Nok is refusing to name, or that the good Admiral was just inventing all the stuff he was saying.

Why? I don't know. And Nok certainly isn't talking.

(I still think Dassem was the third member of the original trio)

Thanks for reading.

[Dolorous Menhir]

Sorry, I haven't read Night of Knives, since I have the misfortune of falling outside the apparent target audience of its publishers: millionaires.

[Abyss]

Disregard the question of whether Traveller is Dassem for a minute...
Consider that Rake already fought Shadowthrone in GotM over a conflict of interest in the Darujhistan situation. SThrone lost two hounds, but Rake wasn't even sure he'd win.

It doesn't take much for ascendants to be at cross purposes. A debt of honour, boredom, some long-term master plan where a pawn has interferred with the other guy's plans... hell, they could fight over who is rightly entitled to keep the V/S sword.

As for the 4 black dragons, there may be an element of GotMism, but i understood Serrat to be high amongst the mage/assassins, but NOT draconic. Which leaves Korlat, Orfantal and two others we simply have not met.

Plus at some point, three dragons passed through Tremolor in DG en groupe, and we don't know who they were either, but Rake's andii seem (emphasis on SEEM) to be the only force who would have three of those all together, even allowing for the time discrepanices of the Azath Houses.

- Abyss, doomed to cross paths with his own ex's.

[Set'alahd Crool]

Dolorous Menhir said:

And from Travellers actions on the Edur throne island (honours Andarist, brother of Anomander; seems well-disposed to Andii in general; doesn't run around voicing threats against Rake's life) I don't see any reason for this fight to happen, apart from that single quote. Put it like that and it really doesn't seem that convincing.

----

As for "Ameron", I think Nok made him up, or at least the name. That's the only time in all five books the name has been mentioned (cue someone with counterexample), which seems pretty remarkable given the amount of time we've spent with Old Guard and Family members like Dujek, Whiskeyjack, Duiker and Cotillion himself. I think "Ameron" is just an anagram of "onearm" and that he was either a real person that Nok is refusing to name, or that the good Admiral was just inventing all the stuff he was saying.

Honouring Andarist doesn't mean much, since he was already dead when Traveller met him. Also, it's not as if the Rake brothers were particularly close. It didn't sound like Andarist thought much of Anomander, anyway.

Ameron must be a real person, since Tavore recognised the name. She just didn't know he was half napan. I do think that Nok was euther telling a few porkies or just plain wrong about some of the other things, though.

[Illuyankas]

Dolorous Menhir said:

Sorry, I haven't read Night of Knives, since I have the misfortune of falling outside the apparent target audience of its publishers: millionaires.

I have it, and I'm a student. Go figure.

My favourite If-Traveller-is-Dassem theory is there is a task that only Hood can perform, but Dassem is closing in on him to wreak his reWEN-gee, and the only person who can stop him is Rake; cue massive duel, most people's favorite chapter in the series, awards, Oscars etc. It might happen...

[Set'alahd Crool]

Illuyankas said:

I have it, and I'm a student. Go figure.

Me too.

[tiam]

i got it for christmas

Any way ameron exists as he supposed to be one of the napans who drowned and i dont think nok could come up with sumthing that elaborate about someones origins
like''o he founded the empire with us all but he was half seguleh'' or something like that.

As to the rake v dassem opinion they might clash over the seguleh thing but i do not think its likely. but you never know they might clash. i seriosly doubt rake expected to do in shadowthrone at the rhivi hills

[Dolmen 2.0]

"The clash" has a very probable chance of occuring because:

1)dassem wants hood dead, Rake needs hood alive.
2)Dragnipur needs too be shattered
3)There is the very good chance rake will answer his children on drift avalii and so meet Travellor. What they fight for is irrelevant just that they WILL fight and it will be a GOOD!

[doolally2au]

Dolorous Menhir said:

Opinion here seems to be that because Traveller (who people seem to be convinced is Dassem Ultor) has the sword Vengeance he will fight Anomander Rake, as per the quote

"the Knight of House Dark, striding a doomed path to face his own vengeance" - obviously not exact, but you get the gist.

Whoa, whose opinion is that? It must be in the crazy theories! I don't see anything so literal as Anomander facing the sword Vengeance in that quote.

This prediction is so vague it could mean anything. Vengeance could come in the form of Anomander having to eventually confront Draconus again if he ever escapes Dragnipur - Draconus being the "vengeance" he has to face. It could also have something to do with Scabandari. While I know some God (name escapes me) crushed Scabbies head in, when he stabbed Silchas and dropped in him in the Azath "something" stirred in the distance - I've always thought this was Rake coming for vengeance over his brothers betrayal. Anomander ends up holding the shadowthrone on Drift Avalii, so there was some involvement somewhere. Vengeance may be facing Scabbies spirit at some time.

There can be many interpretations on this prediction, just as with any fortune telling.

[tiam]

Yeh there can be different interpretations but it says that rake will cross HIS OWN vengeance. This does suggest they will clash. However this could be his interpretation of him killing scabby if fear ever gets to him and frees his soul.

And dolmen why does rake need hood alive. I admit they were companions maybe freinds but this is a leap of faith to say they need each other

[Illuyankas]

To fight the CG, why else? Hood was one of the most important gods in the last few chainings, and losing him AND Fener would probably screw over EVERYBODY.

[Set'alahd Crool]

The quote about (presumably)Rake says he is soon to "Cross swords" with his own vengeance. That's why the Rake v Dassem fight seems likely. SE tends to choose his words carefully.

[Svaran]

Gee I must be the only one that thinks that Karsa and rake are destined to meet they both carry swords that carry souls.

[Abyss]

Also, it's an assumption on our part that Traveller/Dassem will be wielding S/V at the time.

- Abyss, everything you know is wrong.

[doolally2au]

I wouldn't even necessarily take "cross swords" literally in this context. After all, we use the phrase commonly to mean verbal fencing with our enemies/rivals, not that we strap on our swords to go in to the office in the morning prepared to mete out death and destruction to defend our point of view.

[Tiger_sword]

could always be a teaming up i.e. Rake and Traveller team up against whoever (edur presumably)

[Dolorous Menhir]

Illuyankas, Crool, where did you get it?

Amazon carries says 4-6 weeks and a note they may run out of stock, which I'm reading as "we don't have it and will take your money and make you wait for months" . the lone 2 entries on eBay are commanding big prices ($100+ with postage, waaaaaay out of my reach). even the second-hand cheap offers on amazon are too steep really, I just can't afford to spend so much.

It's just so frustrating, I was able to bide my time on eBay and get the five main books for about £20 total (having borrowed them the first time around, but I just had to own them). The prices they're extorting for these much smaller side books is outrageous.

[Tiger_sword]

mine took about 3 weeks from amazon. Its worth the wait. Even if its just to tied you over till BH. Though thats not far away now!