[thadus]

I just wonder...

Maybe you focus too much on the characters but missing the point of items.

I am pretty convinced that Rake/Traveller clash will come in a while but not because of them but because of the swords. Maybe Dragnipur (Draconus) developed some influence over the state of affairs (or Rake's actions). On the other hand Vengeance is too much involved in Shadow Throne to be "just" the sword.

The question is: Are the characters are wielding the swords or the swords characters

(yeah, yeah, another crazy theory)

[Monoch Ochem]

About the other black dragons....Rake told Baruk about having some exceedingly "bookish warlocks" with him at Pale. I got the impression that they were very difficult to rouse into action but they might be the mystery lizards we're trying to account for....

[Illuyankas]

Crazy Theories is that way -->

[tiam]

About the 5 black dragons it could be the night hunters from GOTM it could have been korlat and co. I cant remember but i think that they never died and were driven off is this true i lost my GOTM

[Dinivan]

yeah tiam i think it was that way...only driven away, not killed.

to the travellor/rake clash... i must say that i'm extreme fan of Anomander Rake and I hope he will never be killed.
So, assuming that travellor = dassem (first thought i had when reading the passages on drift avalii, i was surprised that it was a ruling notion here ), i'd say that both dassem and rake can exercise some restraint. I don't think dassem is the beserker-i-wreck-everything-like-karsa-type, so he won't just wield the sword and the fight starts.
Besides that i don't like the notion that dragnipur really has to be destroyed, it's just a plan of nightchill+draconus and they may have succeeded in persuading paran to follow this plan, but rake knows about this intention and he stays relaxed, so i think he will have some idea of his own to break dragnipur when necessary or some whole alternative suggestion which turns the whole world upside down lol

[tiam]

although i like rake (even in GOTM whyen he was in like 10 pages) i beleive he will die. I also beleive ruin will die aswell and this is what wakes up the tiste andii. After all with rake as there leader theyll just follow orders. But when they think for themselves.... Neway dassem (travellor) will fight rake but i believe it will be undecided and theyll still both be alive

[Mkvenna]

ok maybe this belongs in the crazy theories thread but maybe the vengance could be Draconous escaping dragnipur(told you it was crazy) and using it on rake as vengance? condeming rake to the band wagon so to say...

[Dolorous Menhir]

It seems to be widely accepted that Draconus will only be freed if Dragnipur is destroyed (there must be some reason he can't be rescued in the same manner as Oponn freed the Hounds, or Nightchill & K'rul could've sprung him out a long time ago).

So if he does get out, and I think he will, I don't think Dragnipur will still be around for him to wield.

Then again, it would be incredibly poetic for Draconus to kill Rake with Dragnipur...

[shirike]

Dolorous Menhir;62637 said:

Opinion here seems to be that because Traveller (who people seem to be convinced is Dassem Ultor) has the sword Vengeance he will fight Anomander Rake, as per the quote

"the Knight of House Dark, striding a doomed path to face his own vengeance" - obviously not exact, but you get the gist

It's an appealing notion, but I can't actually think of a reason for the two to fight. Rake's conflict with the Empire came largely after First Sword Dassem's disappearance (Pale was the first time he actually fought Malazans; Ultor was out of the picture about 10 years before, by GOTM timelines).

And from Travellers actions on the Edur throne island (honours Andarist, brother of Anomander; seems well-disposed to Andii in general; doesn't run around voicing threats against Rake's life) I don't see any reason for this fight to happen, apart from that single quote. Put it like that and it really doesn't seem that convincing.

Also, Cotillion tells Cutter to advise Traveller of the names of the sword - he would only do that if he wanted to place Traveller on a path.

Quote

The scene where Cottillion appears to kill Edur attacking Andarist:

Cottilion's face fell, as if with a sudden, deep sorrow. "When he's (Traveller) done out there", he said to Cutter, "guide him to this sword. Tell him its names."

Would Cotillion have a reason to want Traveller to kill Hood? Would he have reason to want Traveller and Rake to fight? The fact of his obvious sorrow at Andarists death can be read both ways - he sympathizes with Andarists fate and that is a fate sealed by the actions of Rake OR he sympathizes with Andarist's death because he feels for Rake.

I think understanding Cotillions motives for putting Traveller on this path will be the key to finding out if Traveller and Rake will clash.

[Aptorian]

I didn't read it like Cotillion was putting traveller on any specific course.

I thought the sword in question needed a new wielder, it fitted traveller since, if he truly is Dassem, then he'd have the singleminded skill and determination to use it that Darist lacked.

[Wampyry]

If there is a "red herring" in the quote, it's the fact that we all assume Traveller will be wielding Vengence. Erikson devised a way for Quick Ben to Manhandle Hood. He certainly
can develop a scenaro in which Traveller loses the sword. Maybe Kallor will wind up with
it. That would be tidy

[MTS]

umm...i think this issue has been resolved already, but recently i re-read BH and came across something that hints at Ameron's existence. Ameron was an admiral, that we know, and on one of the transports, where a mysterious figure (cant remember off the top of the head who it's implied to be) gives Hellian a flask with 4 separate point on a cross or something, signifying the flagships of the pre-Empress days. Each point signifies Nok, Cartheron, Urko and somebody else. The only other Old Guard admiral we know of is Ameron, so that clinched it for me (i do remember expressing confusion on the first mention of Ameron; i had not read NoK and so the name was unfamiliar).

that was a nice catch btw, Ameron being an anagram of "Onearm". SE suffering lack of imagination for character names at that point perhaps?

[End of Disc One]

Interesting.