[tiam]

Actually hetan your wrong (mwhahahaha i love saying that ) Ok
Sillanah is pure eleint so a pure child of tiam not just another soletaken. draconus is always reffered to as tiams kin (MoI prologue krul maker of the paths draconus of tiams kin and sister of cold nights

[tiam]

I dont think so (sorry but i dont) the prologue to MoI states the defining factors if you will of the elder gods.

Krul opener of the paths
Draconus of tiams kin
Mael elder god of the sea
Kilamandaros god of i dunno mountains (reminds me of kilamamjaro )

Basicly they show the defining characteristics showing that draconus is of tiams kin. Basicly i take this to mean that this is the exception and he is tiams kin. I also believe that this means draconus is the largest soletaken ever. He is tiams cousin/son. Another question is maybe olar ethil is tiams daughter but chose to partake of the ritual

[Morgoth]

I think your assumption stretch the given facts just a bit, Tiam.. For one, remember that Draconus and Tiam have rutted in the past and that any kinship between the two was not recogniced until Draconus declared Tiam his sister (from MT). It may be just that Draconus is more in sync with his draconean aspect than the other gods.

Olar Ethil is the undead twin in apperance, yet if we are to believe the draconean fam. tree, the she is not the daughter of Tiam..

[Dolmen 2.0]

Images of In bred draconean soletakens are now forever burned into my memory. Draconians couldn't possibly be that...wrong.

Maybe I'm missing something but Draconus was the first born of Tiam, K'rul I believe is not born of tiam for the fact that its impossible to give birth to the creature who is what you exist in. I think that is the connection but to think he did it with his own mother is just...wrong:eek3:

[Abyss]

I thought Drac, Krul and Tiam were all siblings, possibly born of Mommy D, possibly just worsshipped into existance by earlier (pre Malazan) humans.

- Abyss, theological nightmare.

[tiam]

i see the point about draconus being tiams first born that makes sense. So that does make him related to tiam which was my original point. As to olar ethil her being a daughter was just speculation. IMOP we know far to little of the origins of eleints and such as cannot make accurate assumptions. And if all dragons are aspected then why do they all seem to use starveld demalian all the time. ino its the warren of the dragons bbut surely a dragon aspected to ruse must be a high mage in it

[Morgoth]

If Draconus was a child if Tiam, would there not be a link in the fam tree between the two? I doubt Baruk would have missed such an obvious connection.

@Dolmen - I do not think you're argument about K'rul not bein Tiam's child is correct. I doubt that K'rul is a child of Tiam but the fact that he embodies the warrens is not the reason I believe.. Remember that K'rull's ordering of forces into warrens is just a 'recent' construction. Before that, magic was not his veins and so on I think

[tiam]

I dont approve of the family tree anyways(olar athil wtf???!!!) neway the warrens arent recent. But in terms of elder gods they are. Tellan was a warren 300 000 years ago and the tiste warrens were before even that. But they seem to define there characteristics with there titles. draconus is of tiams kin and is therefore linked to sillanah through tiam. which was my original point against hetan

[Set'alahd Crool]

My theory about Olar Ethil ties in with her title, First Bonecaster.

The Imass descended from the Eres. From Udinaas' vision we know there were Eres on the letherii continent before the K'chain arived. From L'Oric we know they were on the SC continent first. That makes them an old race.

Somewhere, somewhen, somehow the first Imass was born. An awareness more subtle understood magic on a different level than it's predecessors. The first bonecaster of the first generation of Imass would have been born a long time ago. Long enough to have partaken of Tiam's blood during one of her death-rebirth cycles - presumably not her last one since it seems too recent. It was from being worshipped by the Imass that Togg and Fandaray ascended. They're older than K'rull and co. The first bonecaster would therefore have been around before the elder gods. Remember the description of Olar Ethil? Much more primitive in appearance than the other T'lan Imass.

As for her soletaken power and size, it's possible that she had a whole Tiam to herself. The Andii had to split her at least eight ways.

[tiam]

Im sorry but i disagree. the first bonecaster was not and could not be before the first elder god. I alwas assumed that Olar ethil was a part eres or something. But the imass were no were close to the beginning of the realm the elder gods were. The elder godswere around when the jaghut were what the imass were to them to the KCCM(?). So it goes

KCCM were born arrived(we dont know)
jaghut were born arrived
KCCM enslaved jaghut
KCCm destroyed themselves
the first imass was born (maybe olar ethil)
Jaghut enslaved imass

Then theres the whole raest thingy which we know about but theres no way that the imass are older than the elder gods. As it require a warren to summo/create the ritual such as tellan(the dust version) therefore krul must have been around by then. Also tellan stems from KT which is also in kruls veins

[Set'alahd Crool]

I repeat, it was from being worshipped by the Imass that Togg and Fandaray ascended. To Togg the elder gods are mere children. That means he was around BEFORE them. He was a wolf. He was worshipped by the early Imass, NOT the Eres. He ascended to godhood. THEN the elder gods turned up.

And who says the K'chain enslaved the Jaghut? Silverfox? Well, simply put, I don't believe her. How would she know? Besides, she said the K'chain were to the Jaghut what the jaghut were to the Imass. Nothing about enslaving there, since throughout history there were only a handful of Jaghut tyrants.

In MT prologue the Jaghut are already a scattered race. They had already turned their collective back on civilization. I think Silverfox is just plain wrong about their relatioonship with the K'chain. She doesn't even know that the K'chain are from a different realm(assuming Osric is right. Since he, unlike she, has done extensive research on the matter, I'll side with Osric's opinion).

[Dolorous Menhir]

Where do you get that from Crool, that Imass worship elevated Togg & Fanny? I thought they were born of chaos, much older than pretty much all the other players we've met, and quite possibly created as ascendant beasts, just as the Elder Gods came into being what they are now.

I can't give any quote to prove that, I certainly remember the wolves being older than the Elder Gods but not any relationship to the Imass, at least not then. The Imass may have worshipped them later, I suppose.

[Set'alahd Crool]

The Grey Swords' shield anvil or destriant, can't remember which, tells Silverfox that her gods are ascended beasts, and I think it was also she who said they ascended walking in step with mortals. Since none of the other elder races worshipped mortal beasts(or much of anything) it stands to reason that said mortals were Imass. Even more likely considering the Pust-mentioned mysterious link between the Imass and shapeshifting along with L'oric's hint at Togg and Fandaray's potential dominance over shapeshifters.

[Abyss]

Jumping back a few points,

- the fact that the otataral dragon was aspected to otataral does not mean every dragon is aspected to something different - it's entirely possible all the purebloods were aspected to SD and nothing more;

- in any event, the purebloods at least existed way before any of the human warrens came into being, so elder warrens only, at a minimum. Soletaken may operate by different rules;

- the paths to ascendency are many - Togg and fannypack could have ascended any number of ways, from worship by humans/eres/imass, to worship by other wolves to just being in the right place at the right time while someone else was working their magic mojo;

- Tiam is Ossrics sister, and Sheltana Lore's mother. Shelty had kids with Draconus. Those relationships seem clear. The line on the family tree does not necessarily trace matrimonial lineage, just a connection, ie: Krul and Drac became draconic because of Tiam, not by being born by her, unless you buiy into the whole 'soletaken are born, not created' thing, which i'm pretty sure was a metaphor.

- Abyss, more of a simile kinda guy. Metaphorically speaking.

[tiam]

but there is a definite link beetween sillanah and tiam and therefore for draconus

[Morgoth]

When did Sillanah become related to draconus? I must have missed a major point as I have difficulties seeing any connection between the two..

[tiam]

hmmmmmmmmmmmm this was my original point:)

weve just spent time getting throught the link that draconus is related to tiam. Hetan said there was no link beetween sillanah and draconus however there was sillanah is obviosly linked to tiam as tiam is sillanahs mother as she spawned all true eleints

[Morgoth]

tiam said:

but there is a definite link beetween sillanah and tiam and therefore for draconus

I appologice for missunderstanding if that was indeed the case, but that does not look like something being discussed but rather you deciding this to be a clear cut fact. I on the other hand, cannot see how that could be and so wonder why

[tiam]

I just went through this
Ok
draconus=tiams kin(MoI prologue and other references)
Silanah=pure elint
tiam= mother of all dragons

therefore as sillanah is a child of tiam (like all dragons) and draconus is of tiams kin they are related.