[Morgoth]

Abyss, on 14 November 2018 - 05:18 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 14 November 2018 - 04:57 PM, said:

I'm so happy other people didn't like FIRST LAW. It was sold to me on "but he subverts ALL the expectations!" and I'll admit I didn't finish the first book. I gave up half way through when I got sick of waiting for the subversion to start and the generic boring cut and paste standard fantasy to end.

I have occasionally wondered if I'd missed a trick through impatience.... seems likely that wasn't the case.

...

Not much gets 'subverted' til the second and third books, and even then, i'd go with 'darker than typical' more than 'subversive'.


Arguably, the character of Glokta is both original and somewhat subversive right out of the gate, but even that isn't as crystallized til late in the book.

So i suppose one might say you missed the subversive parts, but hey, life's too short to tough it out through a book you aren't enjoying just because everyone else you know and respect thinks they're good and you're wrong and should be shunned and shamed and have sticks thrown at you someone else says they enjoyed it.

You might try JA's SHATTERED SEA trilo if you haven't already. Better writing than TFL.

I on the other hand quite enjoyed the First Law. I read it as it was published though, and so wasn't saddled with the expectation that it was meant to subvert all the things. Rather, I enjoyed the story, I enjoyed the characters of Glotka and Logan and Bayaz, and I liked the prose well enough. A little clunky but charming I thought. What really sold me though, I think more than anything, was Logan's arc. The way you see him as he sees himself early on, then get glimpses of how other people see him and how that doesn't really mesh is intriguing. And when they return to the north and he returns to the patterns of behavior he had been trying to flee from, that I liked. When he's standing on the crumbling wall in the high places and screams that he'll be coming for the generals children, his spittle flying, that's when we see Logan as he really is, not what he wants to be.

So yeah, I liked the First Law. I thought it was a fresher take on the genre than a lot of you guys do. Which is fine. You're wrong about most things anyway.

Later on, as I grew older and read more books in a wider selection of genres, I discovered the abundance of unreliable narrators in fiction and how much I enjoy the use when done well. But at the time, I hadn't seen much of that. I don't think I had read The New Sun at the time for instance, or anything by Nabokov.

This post has been edited by Morgoth: 15 November 2018 - 08:24 AM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Morgoth's got a good point actually. I do wonder what I'd have thought of First Law had I read it earlier.

It was on a hide into nowhere given I wasn't long out of a Malazan re-read and someone who refused to believe Malazan wasn't generic (.... yeah, I know) gave me the first one as a "See, this is ACTUALLY subversive". The more I think about it, it indirectly set up a hugely unfair comparison that FL was never going to win. Perhaps it could be worth a revisit with a more open mind.

Edit: Is Glotka the torturer? I remember him standing out for me.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 15 November 2018 - 10:21 AM

[Macros]

I didn't have any of the problems with the first law that seem common here. I didn't like BSC at all, it left me cold, Heroes is my favourite Abercrombie book so far.
But back to First Law, I love Glokta, he makes no illusions of what he is and lived under no false pretences of what he does.
Bayaz is a wonderful monster who plays a good face to the world.
Logan is just a glorious monster

This post has been edited by Macros: 15 November 2018 - 09:46 AM

[Morgoth]

Macros, on 15 November 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

I didn't have any of the problems with the first law that seem common here. I didn't like BSC at all, it left me cold, Heroes is my favourite Abercrombie book so far.
But back to First Law, I love Glokta, he makes no illusions of what he is and lived under no false pretences of what he does.
Bayaz is a wonderful monster who plays a good face to the world.
Logan is just a glorious monster

How did Simeone get hold of Mat's account?

[Macros]

Deep state

[Tiste Simeon]

You can't prove anything...

[Dadding]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 15 November 2018 - 09:45 AM, said:

Morgoth's got a good point actually. I do wonder what I'd have thought of First Law had I read it earlier.

It was on a hide into nowhere given I wasn't long out of a Malazan re-read and someone who refused to believe Malazan wasn't generic (.... yeah, I know) gave me the first one as a "See, this is ACTUALLY subversive". The more I think about it, it indirectly set up a hugely unfair comparison that FL was never going to win. Perhaps it could be worth a revisit with a more open mind.

Edit: Is Glotka the torturer? I remember him standing out for me.

Macros, on 15 November 2018 - 09:46 AM, said:

I didn't have any of the problems with the first law that seem common here. I didn't like BSC at all, it left me cold, Heroes is my favourite Abercrombie book so far.
But back to First Law, I love Glokta, he makes no illusions of what he is and lived under no false pretences of what he does.
Bayaz is a wonderful monster who plays a good face to the world.
Logan is just a glorious monster

Yeah Glokta's the torturer, he's also pretty much the only thing I liked in books 2 and 3. Just not enough to overcome the lack of subtlety everywhere else. Ferro's whole "I like these people but we can't be friends because friendship is bad and I've been hurt before" and Jezal being Jezal. Plus the sex scenes / voyeurism scenes, oh god they're so bad. And the fact that book 3 could have taken place immediately after book 1 and not much would have been different.

[acesn8s]

I finished Lawrences's The Prince of Fools and moved on to book 2, The Liar's Key.

[Tiste Simeon]

You guys are making me want to read Mistborn again.

[polishgenius]

Many of you guys are mad. Sure, there are early glitches in Abercrombie's writing, but the trilogy is still pretty great (and yeah, subversive, although it's possible that in the time since it's become less effective since it's really the series that finalised the process of fantasy abandoning the cliches it's taking the piss out of), and although I didn't like BSC much, Heroes and Red Country are just fantastic...

Anyway.

polishgenius, on 13 November 2018 - 05:44 PM, said:

I've now started All Those Explosions Were Someone Else's Fault by James Alan Gardner, which is the first of a series that is essentially a meeting between urban fantasy-vampires, werewolves, demons and all- and superheroes.

Finished this now and it's defo a book I'd recommend to superhero-shenanigan fans and UF nuts (though tbh I'd still recommend Samit Basu's Turbulence and the sequel Resistance first if it's superhero you're after). It does take a lot of time out to explain shit, but that gives a strong setup for later books (the second in the series just came out) and it's done well, plus the funning is super-fun.


Now I've started and read half of Ben Aaronovitch's Lies Sleeping. Yay!

[End of Disc One]

Abercrombie is the rare fantasy writer in that I don't care much about his plots or world building, or "subverting tropes." For me it's all about the humor and dialogue, and the tapestry of characters. It took me until the second book to really warm up to the writing. BSC and The Heroes are definitely my favorites of his, and I love seeing recurring characters show up and have their stories intertwine with each other.

IMO he's one of the funniest writers in the genre, but it's possible his schtick will start to get old at some point. We will see with the next trilogy.

[Mentalist]

"The Heroes" was a drag; everything else was pretty good (didn't read the YA trilo)

Sounds like Abercrombie's gonna join Bakker and GGKay in the ranks of "authors the forums are divided on" list.

[worry]

Speaking of funny...I have a couple chapters left in The Unholy Consult and Bakker has ramped up his bombastic prose to dizzying heights in this book. You know how Erikson will have his characters do something badass and then end the section with a few momentous one-line paragraphs that end with one that's just the name "Kallor!" or "Draconus!" or whatever? Well Bakker does that too, except 75% of the time he's announcing something that has never been mentioned before in the entire series, and I gotta tell you...I am getting a real kick out of it.
As hellish as this series has been -- and I mean that, it's not just 'grimdark' or whatever, it really feels like I'm reading the Necronomicon sometimes, it feels that tainted and sullied -- I have to believe that to some degree Bakker is also a profoundly silly man.

[amphibian]

"Death came swirling down" becomes almost a Bakker drinking game.

[End of Disc One]

worry, on 15 November 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

You know how Erikson will have his characters do something badass and then end the section with a few momentous one-line paragraphs that end with one that's just the name "Kallor!" or "Draconus!" or whatever?

These are some of my favorite moments in MBotF. I did think that Bakker started italicizing random words in the last couple of books, but I can't complain. No spoilers, but few authors can make my heart pound out of my chest like it did during the climax of TUC.

[worry]

To be clear, I wasn't joking when I said I really like that Bakker does this with random first-mention things. Relatedly, even when he's not doing that specifically, he's constantly tossing in 'lore' that has never been mentioned before and will never be mentioned again and giving it the brightest spotlight in the world. It reminds me of SE and Shal-Morzinn, but it's way more often and reminiscent of Tolkien, and it just tickles my funnybone every single time. He's always done it with the caste nobles in battle scenes, going back to the first trilogy, but TUC just ramps up everything to hilarious levels.

Hopefully I will finish the book today or tomorrow. But I can say already that -- after the first trilogy, which I had mixed feelings on -- I didn't think he had this in him. If you hated the first trilogy, you probably won't warm up to the second series. But if you were middling on the first books, the second set ramps up the whole thing to epic fantasy proportions, with all the Tolkien-isms, quests, battles, meddling gods, and sentient non-humans (including dragons) you could ask for -- blasted with a firehose of body fluids and hellfire. Once I'm done, maybe I'll say more.

[QuickTidal]

MODGOD NOTICE OF DED-THREAD CREATED, SUBFORUM TO FOLLOW

Grabbed REJOICE, A KNIFE TO THE HEART this morning in eBook....and while I'm only 3 chapters in...this book is SOLID so far.

I knew I was reading something special when this occurred:

Spoiler

After being abducted by the aliens to be the intermediary, smoking furiously while speaking with the alien intelligence assigned to her...and then given the opportunity to let her husband know by text that she's okay and doing so off-page....the next chapter header quote is:

"In space, no one cares if you smoke" ~ Text message sent by Samantha August to her husband

I admit I laughed out loud on the transit. Such simple excellence. I can tell I'm going to love this book.

This post has been edited by Abyss: 20 November 2018 - 03:51 PM

[Mentalist]

40% into "The Guns of The Empire" , and it's some quality musketpunk. I was worried based on the blurb, but Wexler tosses that out almost immediately in favour of trudging, shooting, and entire armies marching on the tiny inset map.

Good stuff.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

worry, on 15 November 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Speaking of funny...I have a couple chapters left in The Unholy Consult and Bakker has ramped up his bombastic prose to dizzying heights in this book. You know how Erikson will have his characters do something badass and then end the section with a few momentous one-line paragraphs that end with one that's just the name "Kallor!" or "Draconus!" or whatever?

"Returned to the world. Draconus." remains one of my favourites of those.

[carjug]

Wretched Readers,
Pierce Brown has written some books that will make you people happy. They contain extended sessions of torture, senseless violence female fighters who regularly suffer dismemberment and military style banter. You want a Harry Potter book where Dumbledore doesn't have to wait till the last chapter to get blasted into the vacuum of deep space? Damn right you do, or your keister wouldn't be here! Get your bad self to your local public library and demand that they shelve the Red Rising series. (Earbook if you can make the morons understand.)
(seriously, it's great Laser-Blaster stuff, Not Erikson, but more fun than Jim Butcher on Crack. )