[Abyss]

i cannot disagree w JPK re this, that moment is staggering. I'd argue against it being just for shock's sake, it fits the story, but it hits hard then and in the repercussions. Dark Age in general hits the reader like a slap more than once. I loved the book, but i won't ever say it's light reading. It's an MoI/Empire Strikes Back kind of work.

The fridging early in bk 1 is as blunt as it seems. It isn't pointless but it is simplistic and per upthread that was just the first time i almost dropped the book. Still glad i didn't.

QT you could read the first trilo and stop. I suspect you may not want to stop there because honestly the series just gets wilder. I suppose the question is whether to go ahead knowing that one scene is out there - and to be clear it is one scene, in the series to date nothing else like that happens or compares to it, but it is brutal.

I remember the start of NK Jemisin's BROKEN EARTH that threw you (and many many other people i know of) right out of the book, did you ever go back and read those?

[Tiste Simeon]

I honestly wish I'd stopped after book 3 because it ends well, and now my view of the series as a whole is tainted a little bit. But I acknowledge I'm in the minority here!

[Abyss]

After the glorious journey that was NLF, i needed something a little less deep. The very satisfying SUPERMAN movie and a drift through Spotify's freebies gave me SUPERMAN: THE UNAUTHORIZED BIOGRAPHY, by Glen Weldon. I know my comics history, but the author does a very nice job of folding the character's origins into the wider events in the US and world at the time. He did the research an isn't afraid to through around theories, including his own, where the story is less clear. He goes well beyond the comics into the radio shows, tv, movies, all the way up to the announcement of the recent movie. The delivery is entertainingly informative, I picked up a lot i didn't know, and the occassional joke or sarcasm are well placed. Fun read, worth a try.

Next was this....

Abyss, on 17 September 2024 - 02:30 PM, said:

You know I'm a fan of Peter Clines... he got me w his EX-HEROES superheroes v zombies books, but his THRESHOLD and related books are among my fave thriller/sf reads now and an automatic pre-order.

I just pre-ordered the earbook for an anthology titled COMBAT MONSTERS, primarily for his story because i find most anthologies disappointing, but am intrigued by the concept and at least a couple of other authors in there i know to be good.

More intriguing to me tho, is that the short story is about his characters 'Carter & Kraft'. Here's what i know about Carter & Kraft: Clines writes them, they're set during WW2, and he's written an unclear number of short stories about them, maybe 3.

Three minutes ago I found the first one - 'Banner of the Bent Cross' - easily, it's in a cheap anthology titled KAIJU RISING... and i need to check when i get home later because i think i already own it. A minute ago i found the second - 'Projekt Maria' in something titled MECH: AGE OF STEEL - not so cheap, am skeptical whether it's worth a whole audible credit, but will see - and now i'm a little obsessed w finding the rest of these... because Peter Clines writing weird war WW2 stories is something i want need...

ETA ok it seems the three i've identified are all of them. Proceeding w acquisition.

...you know me, my feelings about anthologies slant negative. This was... better than most, in the sense that i enjoyed most of the stories and only DNF'd three. There are some very clever ideas... a New Zealand Maori squad dodging tanks and monsters during the desert campaign, an immortal British assassin teaming up with werewolves in occupied France to prevent Nazi necromancers leaning the secrets of lycanthropy, a really fun take on the Russian all-women pilots squadron. Cline's entry was satisfying, too brief vs his novels but fun in a zombies vs nazis at sea kind of way.


And then back to the world of Jorath for The 13th Paladin bk 10, THE GREEN SEA, which was fun despite the painfully blunt thinly veiled American Indigenous people analogy prairie culture. The action is especially well written in this one and the end is so striking i went straight ahead into bk 11 CITY OF CUTTHROATS.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 03:15 PM, said:

i cannot disagree w JPK re this, that moment is staggering. I'd argue against it being just for shock's sake, it fits the story, but it hits hard then and in the repercussions. Dark Age in general hits the reader like a slap more than once. I loved the book, but i won't ever say it's light reading. It's an MoI/Empire Strikes Back kind of work.

The fridging early in bk 1 is as blunt as it seems. It isn't pointless but it is simplistic and per upthread that was just the first time i almost dropped the book. Still glad i didn't.

QT you could read the first trilo and stop. I suspect you may not want to stop there because honestly the series just gets wilder. I suppose the question is whether to go ahead knowing that one scene is out there - and to be clear it is one scene, in the series to date nothing else like that happens or compares to it, but it is brutal.

I admit I'm wiling to endure bleak stuff...so I may keep going, and feel it out as I go. I'm glad of the trigger warning though as if I came across that just in passing without knowing about it ahead of time...it probably would have made me chuck the book against the wall.

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 03:15 PM, said:

I remember the start of NK Jemisin's BROKEN EARTH that threw you (and many many other people i know of) right out of the book, did you ever go back and read those?

No, but that one also had tense issues that bugged me. I may go back to it one day, but I'm not fussed any time soon.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 26 November 2025 - 03:39 PM

[worry]

Tense tension can be intense.

[Abyss]

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2025 - 03:38 PM, said:

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 03:15 PM, said:

i cannot disagree w JPK re this, that moment is staggering. I'd argue against it being just for shock's sake, it fits the story, but it hits hard then and in the repercussions. Dark Age in general hits the reader like a slap more than once. I loved the book, but i won't ever say it's light reading. It's an MoI/Empire Strikes Back kind of work.

The fridging early in bk 1 is as blunt as it seems. It isn't pointless but it is simplistic and per upthread that was just the first time i almost dropped the book. Still glad i didn't.

QT you could read the first trilo and stop. I suspect you may not want to stop there because honestly the series just gets wilder. I suppose the question is whether to go ahead knowing that one scene is out there - and to be clear it is one scene, in the series to date nothing else like that happens or compares to it, but it is brutal.

I admit I'm wiling to endure bleak stuff...so I may keep going, and feel it out as I go. I'm glad of the trigger warning though as if I came across that just in passing without knowing about it ahead of time...it probably would have made me chuck the book against the wall.

Yeah the second i read JPK's post i was nodding. I remember having a surreal 'did that just happen?' reaction.

Quote

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 03:15 PM, said:

I remember the start of NK Jemisin's BROKEN EARTH that threw you (and many many other people i know of) right out of the book, did you ever go back and read those?

No, but that one also had tense issues that bugged me. I may go back to it one day, but I'm not fussed any time soon.

I enjoyed the way she played w that and as the series advances it starts to make more sense as a literary device, but it does take some getting used to.

[JPK]

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 05:30 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 26 November 2025 - 03:38 PM, said:

Abyss, on 26 November 2025 - 03:15 PM, said:

i cannot disagree w JPK re this, that moment is staggering. I'd argue against it being just for shock's sake, it fits the story, but it hits hard then and in the repercussions. Dark Age in general hits the reader like a slap more than once. I loved the book, but i won't ever say it's light reading. It's an MoI/Empire Strikes Back kind of work.

The fridging early in bk 1 is as blunt as it seems. It isn't pointless but it is simplistic and per upthread that was just the first time i almost dropped the book. Still glad i didn't.

QT you could read the first trilo and stop. I suspect you may not want to stop there because honestly the series just gets wilder. I suppose the question is whether to go ahead knowing that one scene is out there - and to be clear it is one scene, in the series to date nothing else like that happens or compares to it, but it is brutal.

I admit I'm wiling to endure bleak stuff...so I may keep going, and feel it out as I go. I'm glad of the trigger warning though as if I came across that just in passing without knowing about it ahead of time...it probably would have made me chuck the book against the wall.

Yeah the second i read JPK's post i was nodding. I remember having a surreal 'did that just happen?' reaction.

QT, I was mostly thinking of some of the posts you've made recently regarding bleak content. I know that with context all of us here can handle it. I mean, we've all Witnessed some truly awful stuff in Malazan. That said, I've definitely found that as I've been getting older that that specific type of violence is really difficult for me and it's seemed to hit you the same way. I do agree with Abyss that the second half of the series is worth it though and Red God is one I'll start the day it drops.

Speaking of bleak, I've decided it's time to go back for another Cormac McCarthy novel with No Country for Old Men. I'm only a chapter in but loving it already. He really did have a way of writing that just sucks my attention into the story. It's interesting seeing that he's playing with some similar writing techniques here that he used on The Road with the dialogue but I'm wondering if it's going to work as well here as there are more characters involved that could be speaking.

[Macros]

The hobbling made me want to set down Eriksons work and never pick it up again.
I will never reread anything beyond RG (my dislike of TTH is separate but the last two books, nope fuck you Steve)

[JPK]

I get it, Macros. That scene is fucking awful and I didn't blame you for throwing in the towel. It's far from the first bit of bleakness in the series though. It really starts in DG and just never stops.

We all have our limits though. Over in the classics thread, I've mentioned that I've had to DNF two of the more modern novels this year due to content. Now, I have a hard time remembering the last time I've had to DNF a book but both of these ended up with

Spoiler

detailed on page sexual assault of a child

. Now, both authors had interesting themes they were exploring that kept me engaged right up until I hit those sections. After that, didn't matter what point there were time to make, I was out and have no intention to pick up another novel by either author.

[Tiste Simeon]

JPK, on 26 November 2025 - 09:01 PM, said:

I get it, Macros. That scene is fucking awful and I didn't blame you for throwing in the towel. It's far from the first bit of bleakness in the series though. It really starts in DG and just never stops.

We all have our limits though. Over in the classics thread, I've mentioned that I've had to DNF two of the more modern novels this year due to content. Now, I have a hard time remembering the last time I've had to DNF a book but both of these ended up with

Spoiler

detailed on page sexual assault of a child

. Now, both authors had interesting themes they were exploring that kept me engaged right up until I hit those sections. After that, didn't matter what point there were time to make, I was out and have no intention to pick up another novel by either author.

I'm with you on that. I recently found a book I remember enjoying a long time ago. It had a scene I clearly forgot about, akin to your spoilered bit and I put it down. It was very unnecessary to the plot as well. It was a shame because I was enjoying it, but I just got switched off immediately.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Macros, on 26 November 2025 - 07:49 PM, said:

The hobbling made me want to set down Eriksons work and never pick it up again.
I will never reread anything beyond RG (my dislike of TTH is separate but the last two books, nope fuck you Steve)

Very, very nearly did the same thing on my first time through. I confess when I re-read the series (which I haven't done for years now) I skipped that part.

I also think a similar reaction to

Spoiler

The rape of Enesdia

is what turned me off the Kharkanas trilogy.

I've noticed my tolerance for "bleak" has very much shifted as I've gotten older. I used to "cope" (not sure that's the right word) with it when I felt it fit story and setting, but now I'm actively turned off by bleak stories (which I think is why I stalled around BH in my last Malazan re-read and have felt no desire to try it again since - despite having re-read it five or six times prior to then). I think particularly with books I have less time for reading than I did so it's mostly escapism, and I think I've hit a point of just not really being interested in reading that's as bleak/bleaker than the real world I'm attempting escape from.

Having said that Watership Down remains one of my favourite books and Mr NAB thinks there must be something wrong with me as such (guess who watched the film too young?) - so perhaps it's not quite so clear cut.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 November 2025 - 08:06 AM

[Tiste Simeon]

Quote

I think particularly with books I have less time for reading than I did so it's mostly escapism, and I think I've hit a point of just not really being interested in reading that's as bleak/bleaker than the real world I'm attempting escape from.

This is key. I think when I first read these books I was a lot less aware/connected to politics, social justice and stuff. I didn't have a wife or kids so to me it was just a story with some grimness in it.

I don't think it's a coincidence that cozy fiction has taken off in such a way in the past few years.

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2025 - 08:00 AM, said:

I've noticed my tolerance for "bleak" has very much shifted as I've gotten older. I used to "cope" (not sure that's the right word) with it when I felt it fit story and setting, but now I'm actively turned off by bleak stories (which I think is why I stalled around BH in my last Malazan re-read and have felt no desire to try it again since - despite having re-read it five or six times prior to then). I think particularly with books I have less time for reading than I did so it's mostly escapism, and I think I've hit a point of just not really being interested in reading that's as bleak/bleaker than the real world I'm attempting escape from.

Having said that Watership Down remains one of my favourite books and Mr NAB thinks there must be something wrong with me as such (guess who watched the film too young?) - so perhaps it's not quite so clear cut.

I have a similar thing, and part of it started with (of all books) THE HEROES by Joe Abercrombie...just relentless grim war, and Abercrombie does not like to let his characters (in that world anyways) hope or have many wins that aren't barbed with wicked razors...but I think COVID is what sent this feeling over the top. We collectively went through a trauma as a planet, and everything that existed before it in the grim and bleak region of fiction became just too much for a society that was climbing out and trying to find ways to destress. Which makes me remember what happened with STAR WARS....which was a hope-studded rejection of the grim 1970's media that was permeating the world at the time, which then led slowly into the 80's which was filled with more whimsical, hopeful, and heroic fare....by the mid 2010's (aside from most Superhero movies) we'd begun to drop back into the 70's shit, and I think COVID allowed a rejection to start taking place again, and much of the book community has not gotten that memo.

Which is not to say that everything needs to be lighty and brighty, but there needs to be hope, and if you are going to drag protagonists through shit, then you better have some hope or wins on the other side or I'm probably going to check out.

Like Harry Dresden gets the world thrown at him...but Jim lets him have wins too, and have hope, and he gets to be heroic without many barbs...it's also why Sanderson is still so popular....say what you will about the man, but he's delivering STAR WARS-like hope in all his books.

Tiste Simeon, on 27 November 2025 - 09:21 AM, said:

Quote

I think particularly with books I have less time for reading than I did so it's mostly escapism, and I think I've hit a point of just not really being interested in reading that's as bleak/bleaker than the real world I'm attempting escape from.

This is key. I think when I first read these books I was a lot less aware/connected to politics, social justice and stuff. I didn't have a wife or kids so to me it was just a story with some grimness in it.

I don't think it's a coincidence that cozy fiction has taken off in such a way in the past few years.

Yep. Same, in fact some of my fave books this year were Makoto Shinkai's SUZUME, Heather Fawcett's EMILY WILDE books, and Kristen Britain's GR series.


And yeah the wife and kids thing REALLY changed my outlook on escapist fiction, because of course now I have people in my life that I would protect with that life, and it really does change your worldview.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 27 November 2025 - 12:46 PM

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

On the cosy note, I'm currently about halfway through Peter S Beagle's (he of The Last Unicorn fame) A Fine and Private Place. It's lovely.

It's about the residents and community (living and dead) in and around a graveyard. It was his debut novel and it's ridiculous that he wrote this at something like 19. It's very whimsical and you can see the beginnings of the wry observation and slightly off-kilter humour that The Last Unicorn is full of.

My version has a foreword by Neil Gaiman, sadly, but it serves as a reminder that Beagle did everything Gaiman is known for decades before and (in my opinion at least) better - and isn't a problematic monster into the bargain.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 27 November 2025 - 02:12 PM

[Macros]

I think its a part of the success of the Hobbit and LotR, Narnia, all that.
Off the back of the 2 world wars, did the world want some good guys do the right thing and mostly happy ending, fuck yes

[Abyss]

Macros, on 27 November 2025 - 03:40 PM, said:

I think its a part of the success of the Hobbit and LotR, Narnia, all that.
Off the back of the 2 world wars, did the world want some good guys do the right thing and mostly happy ending, fuck yes

Moreso because after all their wonderful adventures growing up in Narnia, they are reverted to childhood and get to do it all again.

...there's a fucked up dark side to that too, but the story is so 'pure' it's generally ignored.

[Cause]

QuickTidal, on 27 November 2025 - 12:45 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 27 November 2025 - 08:00 AM, said:

I've noticed my tolerance for "bleak" has very much shifted as I've gotten older. I used to "cope" (not sure that's the right word) with it when I felt it fit story and setting, but now I'm actively turned off by bleak stories (which I think is why I stalled around BH in my last Malazan re-read and have felt no desire to try it again since - despite having re-read it five or six times prior to then). I think particularly with books I have less time for reading than I did so it's mostly escapism, and I think I've hit a point of just not really being interested in reading that's as bleak/bleaker than the real world I'm attempting escape from.

Having said that Watership Down remains one of my favourite books and Mr NAB thinks there must be something wrong with me as such (guess who watched the film too young?) - so perhaps it's not quite so clear cut.

I have a similar thing, and part of it started with (of all books) THE HEROES by Joe Abercrombie...just relentless grim war, and Abercrombie does not like to let his characters (in that world anyways) hope or have many wins that aren't barbed with wicked razors...but I think COVID is what sent this feeling over the top. We collectively went through a trauma as a planet, and everything that existed before it in the grim and bleak region of fiction became just too much for a society that was climbing out and trying to find ways to destress. Which makes me remember what happened with STAR WARS....which was a hope-studded rejection of the grim 1970's media that was permeating the world at the time, which then led slowly into the 80's which was filled with more whimsical, hopeful, and heroic fare....by the mid 2010's (aside from most Superhero movies) we'd begun to drop back into the 70's shit, and I think COVID allowed a rejection to start taking place again, and much of the book community has not gotten that memo.

Which is not to say that everything needs to be lighty and brighty, but there needs to be hope, and if you are going to drag protagonists through shit, then you better have some hope or wins on the other side or I'm probably going to check out.

Like Harry Dresden gets the world thrown at him...but Jim lets him have wins too, and have hope, and he gets to be heroic without many barbs...it's also why Sanderson is still so popular....say what you will about the man, but he's delivering STAR WARS-like hope in all his books.

I was expecting the shift you described but it hasnt been as big as I expected. Ted Lasso was this perfectly timed, extremly positive and happy show on the back of covid and it did extremly well. I was expecting we would see alot more ted lass and a lot more shows like it. Comfort shows to help us in the bleakness that was covid, the politics of our times and such.

I was expecting new sitcoms, new happy movies, romcoms etc. SO much of the feel good story is missing thse days ftom tv, movies and books.

[Macros]

The corporate overlords know better to crush our spirits

[Tsundoku]

Reading my first Joe Abercrombie "The Devils". Quite a fun read so far. Would make a good mini-series.
I keep seeing Anya Taylor-Joy as Sunny and Steven Lang as Jakob. Maybe Diego Luna as Diaz.

[QuickTidal]

QuickTidal, on 25 November 2025 - 12:38 PM, said:

I finally decided (after years of it sitting on my digital ToReadPile) to give RED RISING a chance...the whole opening section was kind of meh (when they don't know what's going on...cause you can tell shit is going on but the characters can't for some reason?)...but once it opens up and turns a bit cyberpunky I started to enjoy it more....and quite frankly, just like Dresden, I love an underdog character who has the kitchen sink thrown at him and still gets up and spits in the face of his enemy...so it's safe to say I like Darrow.

Finished on Sunday night. Fastest I've read a book in like 2 years...safe to say I not only liked it, I'm IN.

Tiste Simeon, on 25 November 2025 - 01:36 PM, said:

Every time you think it can't get more unhinged it absolutely does. Like, it soon stops feeling like a plucky underdog YA story. I really liked the first trilogy (which is a complete story, you don't need to read the follow up series) but hated the second series and haven't read the latest.

It's a pretty insane series but I enjoyed it a lot. Sevro is a great character.

Sevro is SOOOOOOO good. Though I've learned not to get attached to ANYONE, so I always fear for him.

amphibian, on 25 November 2025 - 01:40 PM, said:

Red Rising is absolutely worth reading. It starts off as something familiar (underdog going to an academy) then moves into something better within the first book, then the rest fuel a violent rocket ride into a ton of fun and interesting bits to consider for a stratified society with incredible wealth disparities.

It's very much got a lot of very interesting philosophical comments on such a society, while also tempering Darrow's view from below.

worry, on 25 November 2025 - 01:41 PM, said:

I've only read the first trilogy, but as I recall: the first book is largely an R-rated riff on the YA dystopian trend, with a space opera backdrop. Books 2 and 3 are much more directly space opera, but still brutally violent and pretty cleverly plotted. Good characters, lots of twists and turns, consistently exciting action scenes. Summer blockbuster stuff but surrounded by smart drama rather than schlock. You never really have to turn your brain off between the action.

Pretty much seems like what I'm enjoying it for. It's pacey as hell.

Abyss, on 25 November 2025 - 02:53 PM, said:

i'll chime in bcs RED RISING is a current fave of mine... bk 1, the first half, is just meh. Predictable by the numbers YA sf. I would have dropped the series right there but for a number of people here and elsewhere absolutely swearing to me on the blood of their ancestors that it gets better. And it does, the back half of bk 1 is like a whole other book, still reads YA, but gets a bit subversive and a lot uglier. Then bks 2 onwards go full adult SF, at times mil/SF, and the author really starts to hit his stride. Bk 4 is setup for the rest of the series and doesn't so much dip as catch its breath for 5 and 6 which just went more and more insane. 7 will be a guaranteed pre-order/day of arrival read for me. Excellent characters, interesting villains, fun tech without going hard sf, reasonable setting similar to the Expanse in scope but very different in feel.

This was super accurate. The front half of the book was interesting and I enjoyed it, but I would like pick it up and read a chapter or two and put it down till my next reading session...I hit 50% yesterday morning and I never wanted to put it down, and aside from my daughter's karate graduation I was able to read until I finished. The back half very much feels like a different book. I think I saw a few things coming before they did, but it was still delicious to watch them happen.

So yeah, thanks again all. I loved this book and I can't wait to continue the series. I'm grabbing GOLDEN SON from the library tonight on my way home and starting it immediately.