[Vengeance]

Andorion, on 07 July 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Macros, on 07 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

God dammit.
Big post.
Phone ate it.

Feist -

Disregard earlier advice, read, in this order:
Magician, Silverthorn, A darkness at Sethanon, Daughter of the Empire, Seventh of the empire, mistress of the empire, Honoured Enemy (his best book), Prince of the Blood, The Kings Buchaneer, Kronor the Betrayal, Kronor Assassins (the Kronor books order may be reversed), Shadow of a Dark Queen, Rise of a Merchant Prince, Rage of a Demon King.
Then stop and never return to Midkemia, unless it's for retreads.

Thanks for this, I will be saving this post. I know you did a readthrough recently.

Also I note that you are essentially telling me to skip Chaoswar, Demonwar and Conclave. Bad, average, or filler?

Chaos war's, Demon War and the other are mostly just retreads and I felt they started to become below average as they went along.

[Vengeance]

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

Briar King, on 05 July 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 05 July 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Andorion, on 05 July 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Halfway into Caesar's Women. This book is becoming rather average. Nothing much is really happening.

Towards the end of Osman's Dream. This book is a slog.

Caesars women is the political rise of Caesar. I have read it a couple of times. Compared to the other books in the series it doesn't have hardly any military action. It does lay the political ground work that will come into play for the next 2 books though.

I was going to say the same.

To me where this one shined was in the political insight into the

Spoiler

rivalry of Pompey and Crassus after the whole Spartacus issue with Caesar acting as the peace keeper.

. They hated each other. The title is very much apt to history/his future.

Yes it's the weakest book and she even acknowledges this in the txt saying this is the book/time period that some of Cicero's scrolls are missing/lost/destroyed. Atleast I remember reading this somewhere but I believe it was said either at the end of 3 in notes or before the start of 4.

Bk 5 will leap back on the epic train I promise.

Yeah, I suppose having a setup book makes sense. I will power through this and then hope there is a nice lengthy take on Caesar's military exploits.

Oh caesar is there ever. Her description of gaul is very much in line with Caesars own Gallic wars of which I also have and have read.

[Vengeance]

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 06 July 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

So which authors am I missing?

Donaldson? Terry Brooks?

Well, yes, you're obviously missing both of these. Donaldson and Brooks together are responsible for kickstarting the current epic fantasy genre, having launched their series with Tor at the same time in 1977. Outside of Tolkien and maybe GRRM, they might be the most important names in the genre.

I can't personally recommend Brooks, but Donaldson's stuff is amazing. Not just the 10 Covenant books (which are fantastic), but his "Mordant's Need" fantasy duology, and the 5-book sci-fi Gap Cycle. (He's also got some murder mysteries, a couple short story collections and novellas, as well.)

You need to read more Glen Cook, too. Finish the Black Company books. Then you've got the Garrett P.I. mysteries, the Dread Empire series, and like a billion other minor series and standalones.

I have always hesitated with Donaldson as his work seems to be quite divisive.

Agreed on Cook. I have him noted as "Read after Bakker" so later this years. I will finish the Black Company books and decide on what to read next.

Mentalist, on 06 July 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Paul Kearney, David Abraham.

If you want to go old-school, there's also the Weis & Hickman duo.

Kearney is on my TBR.

Ment, did you mean Daniel Abraham? Because I have read Dagger and Coin.

As for Weis and Hickman I have read the first book of the Deathgate Cycle which I quite liked.

DRAGON LANCE!!!!! At least Chronicles and Legends.

Chronicles of Amber

[Andorion]

Vengeance, on 07 July 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

Andorion, on 07 July 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Macros, on 07 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

God dammit.
Big post.
Phone ate it.

Feist -

Disregard earlier advice, read, in this order:
Magician, Silverthorn, A darkness at Sethanon, Daughter of the Empire, Seventh of the empire, mistress of the empire, Honoured Enemy (his best book), Prince of the Blood, The Kings Buchaneer, Kronor the Betrayal, Kronor Assassins (the Kronor books order may be reversed), Shadow of a Dark Queen, Rise of a Merchant Prince, Rage of a Demon King.
Then stop and never return to Midkemia, unless it's for retreads.

Thanks for this, I will be saving this post. I know you did a readthrough recently.

Also I note that you are essentially telling me to skip Chaoswar, Demonwar and Conclave. Bad, average, or filler?

Chaos war's, Demon War and the other are mostly just retreads and I felt they started to become below average as they went along.

Ah, got it.
Thanks.

Vengeance, on 07 July 2017 - 04:46 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 03:25 AM, said:

Briar King, on 05 July 2017 - 09:36 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 05 July 2017 - 02:10 PM, said:

Andorion, on 05 July 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

Halfway into Caesar's Women. This book is becoming rather average. Nothing much is really happening.

Towards the end of Osman's Dream. This book is a slog.

Caesars women is the political rise of Caesar. I have read it a couple of times. Compared to the other books in the series it doesn't have hardly any military action. It does lay the political ground work that will come into play for the next 2 books though.

I was going to say the same.

To me where this one shined was in the political insight into the

Spoiler

rivalry of Pompey and Crassus after the whole Spartacus issue with Caesar acting as the peace keeper.

. They hated each other. The title is very much apt to history/his future.

Yes it's the weakest book and she even acknowledges this in the txt saying this is the book/time period that some of Cicero's scrolls are missing/lost/destroyed. Atleast I remember reading this somewhere but I believe it was said either at the end of 3 in notes or before the start of 4.

Bk 5 will leap back on the epic train I promise.

Yeah, I suppose having a setup book makes sense. I will power through this and then hope there is a nice lengthy take on Caesar's military exploits.

Oh caesar is there ever. Her description of gaul is very much in line with Caesars own Gallic wars of which I also have and have read.

I once read an excerpt from Gallic wars for an ancient history project I have always meant to go back and read it again, but I never have.

Vengeance, on 07 July 2017 - 04:53 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 01:44 PM, said:

Salt-Man Z, on 06 July 2017 - 01:03 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 04:18 AM, said:

So which authors am I missing?

Donaldson? Terry Brooks?

Well, yes, you're obviously missing both of these. Donaldson and Brooks together are responsible for kickstarting the current epic fantasy genre, having launched their series with Tor at the same time in 1977. Outside of Tolkien and maybe GRRM, they might be the most important names in the genre.

I can't personally recommend Brooks, but Donaldson's stuff is amazing. Not just the 10 Covenant books (which are fantastic), but his "Mordant's Need" fantasy duology, and the 5-book sci-fi Gap Cycle. (He's also got some murder mysteries, a couple short story collections and novellas, as well.)

You need to read more Glen Cook, too. Finish the Black Company books. Then you've got the Garrett P.I. mysteries, the Dread Empire series, and like a billion other minor series and standalones.

I have always hesitated with Donaldson as his work seems to be quite divisive.

Agreed on Cook. I have him noted as "Read after Bakker" so later this years. I will finish the Black Company books and decide on what to read next.

Mentalist, on 06 July 2017 - 01:24 PM, said:

Paul Kearney, David Abraham.

If you want to go old-school, there's also the Weis & Hickman duo.

Kearney is on my TBR.

Ment, did you mean Daniel Abraham? Because I have read Dagger and Coin.

As for Weis and Hickman I have read the first book of the Deathgate Cycle which I quite liked.

DRAGON LANCE!!!!! At least Chronicles and Legends.

Chronicles of Amber

By Dragonlance, I am assuming you mean the Autumn, Winter stuff and the Twins?

Amber - Thank you so much for reminding me. Zelazny is a big milestone author.

[Maark Abbott]

Still on Book 5 of Crown of Stars.

It's actually German. It means 'the Hugh, the'.

[Vengeance]

Andorion, on 07 July 2017 - 04:59 PM, said:

Vengeance, on 07 July 2017 - 04:36 PM, said:

DRAGON LANCE!!!!! At least Chronicles and Legends.

Chronicles of Amber

By Dragonlance, I am assuming you mean the Autumn, Winter stuff and the Twins?

Amber - Thank you so much for reminding me. Zelazny is a big milestone author.

Yes Autum, Winter, and Spring as well as Time of the twins, War of the Twins, and Test of the twins.

The First Series of Shanarra is/was very good. I am not a huge fan of his later works although I read right up to The High Druid Series. But the original Trilogy should be read. Added to that I would put the first couple of books of L.E.Modesitt JR. The recluce books. The Magic of Recluce, The Towers of the Sunset, The Magic Engineer, The Order War, The Death of Chaos.

The writting stays about the same through out the series. The plot development is the same for each book. But he is very prolific writer who does a decent job of world building through out the books.

[Salt-Man Z]

Y'all need to work at trimming your quotes down. Holy cow.

[Abyss]

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

...

Abyss, on 06 July 2017 - 05:19 AM, said:

Stover.
You're fucking missing fucking Stover and his Acts of Caine series, which is fucking glorious.

Read the first two, first was excellent, second was good, but felt a bit overdone. I think my dislike of portal fantasy stains my appreciation of that series.

Except that it's not portal fantasy. The 'real world' setting is pure dystopic future-set sf, and the fantasy side is far more complex than the usual DnD based portal siliness.
CAINE BLACK KNIFE is pure action fantasy fucking goodness, and CAINE'S LAW is that plus mindfuckery. Worthwhile.

Quote

...
Deathgate are my favourite. Darksword's an OK trilo with a single follow-up, and "Rose of the Prophet" is more formulaic but goes for a desert setting which isn't often done.

DEATHGATE is utterly worth completing. Great series, complex world(s)(es), all the tropes are there but W/H have a blast with them and manage to weave together a massive massive story by the end.

DARKSWORD... meh. Not their best work. Very basic fantasy. ROSE two but the setting made it more interesting than the story.

Briar King, on 06 July 2017 - 04:42 PM, said:

Copying the cover for Ando of Keyes's The Briar King

Two thousand years ago, the Born Queen defeated the Skasloi lords, freeing humans from the bitter yoke of slavery. But now monstrous creatures roam the land—and destinies become inextricably entangled in a drama of power and seduction. The king's woodsman, a rebellious girl, a young priest, a roguish adventurer, and a young man made suddenly into a knight—all face malevolent forces that shake the foundations of the kingdom, even as the Briar King, legendary harbinger of death, awakens from his slumber. At the heart of this many-layered tale is Anne Dare, youngest daughter of the royal family . . . upon whom the fate of her world may depend.

Dear god all that blurb is missing is a mysterious old wizard, a curse, a dragon, and a legendary sword.

Salt-Man Z, on 06 July 2017 - 05:02 PM, said:

... I'm not sure a complaint about Donaldson exists that hasn't also been leveled at Erikson; if you've made it through all 10 MBotF books and enjoyed them all, I don't think there's anything in the 10 Covenant books that will put you off. (And to be honest, I think SRD's 10 series tells a tighter, more cohesive single story than SE does.)

If you're still hesitant, I always recommend the Mordant's Need duology, which besides being very good, captures the essence of SRD quite well.

I think that Donaldson's work is divisive because he tends towards extremes. Very little ever happens 'just a little' in his COVENANT books.
They are dark, and i found them slow, but fascinating. The first two trilos anyways - haven't read the rest and would need to do a reread of the first two before i did.
In any event, worth a look to make up your own mind. Just push thru the first chapters of bk 1 if you find yourself losing interest.

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 06:17 PM, said:

Gabriele, on 06 July 2017 - 05:11 PM, said:

Andorion, on 06 July 2017 - 08:39 AM, said:

...

Eddings - read all of Eddings
...

...

All of Eddings? You're brave. I gave up at Althalus.

I actually didn't try Althalus. Stopped at Tamuli.

That is the correct response.

Macros, on 07 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

God dammit.
Big post.
Phone ate it.

Feist -

Disregard earlier advice, read, in this order:
Magician, Silverthorn, A darkness at Sethanon, Daughter of the Empire, Seventh of the empire, mistress of the empire, Honoured Enemy (his best book), Prince of the Blood, The Kings Buchaneer, Kronor the Betrayal, Kronor Assassins (the Kronor books order may be reversed), Shadow of a Dark Queen, Rise of a Merchant Prince, Rage of a Demon King.
Then stop and never return to Midkemia, unless it's for retreads.

I'd stop after PRINCE. Buccaneer is borderline insultingly weak, the Krondor books were mediocre videogame tie-ins, and the Serpent War quad starts ok but ends horribly weak and unnecessarily drawn out.

Quote

Also I note that you are essentially telling me to skip Chaoswar, Demonwar and Conclave. Bad, average, or filler?

Yes.

Quote

Eddings wrote another 4 or 5 book series after Althalus, but in sorta went under the radar of most readers. I never went near it.
..

No. No he didn't.
And he didn't write Althalus either.
And you can't make me think otherwise.

Andorion, on 05 July 2017 - 01:49 PM, said:

...
...
Amber - Thank you so much for reminding me. Zelazny is a big milestone author.

Hell yes. Amber is great fun.

Vengeance, on 07 July 2017 - 05:17 PM, said:

...

The First Series of Shanarra is/was very good. I am not a huge fan of his later works although I read right up to The High Druid Series. But the original Trilogy should be read. ...

I think that the original trilo and the HERITAGE quad that follows it are utterly worth reading (with the usual qualifier that the first book, SWORD, is the weakest of the bunch and suffers for its LoTR ties and rips, but isn't a bad read even so).
After HERITAGE things become formulaic, but can still be fun.

[polishgenius]

I wish I could pretend that The Dreamers never happened. It... damaged me.

[Macros]

Andorion, on 07 July 2017 - 04:05 PM, said:

Macros, on 07 July 2017 - 07:54 AM, said:

God dammit.
Big post.
Phone ate it.

Feist -

Disregard earlier advice, read, in this order:
Magician, Silverthorn, A darkness at Sethanon, Daughter of the Empire, Seventh of the empire, mistress of the empire, Honoured Enemy (his best book), Prince of the Blood, The Kings Buchaneer, Kronor the Betrayal, Kronor Assassins (the Kronor books order may be reversed), Shadow of a Dark Queen, Rise of a Merchant Prince, Rage of a Demon King.
Then stop and never return to Midkemia, unless it's for retreads.

Thanks for this, I will be saving this post. I know you did a readthrough recently.

Also I note that you are essentially telling me to skip Chaoswar, Demonwar and Conclave. Bad, average, or filler?

depressing. Average by the numbers predictable writing with piss poor imitation characters of the heroes of his earlier works along with some of the hereos you just want to fuck off (Tomas excluded, hes still the tits, Magicians end is NEARLY worth reading just for his end)
it also becomes very evident how lazy he became towards the end of the series, he made this grand sweeping statement years ago about what the riftwar was leading too, and the 5 series cycle was mentioned, I think he felt obligated to drag it out. fucking painful. and the lazyness in his editorial process was brutal in places, he would drop characters in, deliberately linking them hereditrially to beloved charcters from earlier trilogies and then just fuck up a load of easily remembered facts about said predecessor. I mean if a passing fan like me can pick on so many things canonically wrong on one read, I should like to think he has an editor or proof readers that would be fucking beating him over the head about.
such a disapointment. Seriously, do not read Shards of a Broken Crown or anything after, unless you want some fucking superb characters just ruined for you.

if you feel like having dreams crushed and enjoy depressing yourself, then by all means, have at it

[Macros]

[quote name='abyss]I'd stop after PRINCE. Buccaneer is borderline insultingly weak' date=' the Krondor books were mediocre videogame tie-ins, and the Serpent War quad starts ok but ends horribly weak and unnecessarily drawn out.[/quote']

i think we've had this out before, maybe it was with cougar.

I stand by my Midkemia read order and should/should not read calls.

Buchaneer is undoubtedly the weakest book I list, but it sets a lot of scene for the Serpentwar Trilogy (TRILOGY< THERE WAS NO FOURTH BOOK)

you will note I don't acknowledge a series about Jimmy the Hand, because such a sequence of books, about one of the best fucking characters ever, would undoubtedly be awesome and not absolute dogshit that should be fed into a woodchipper.

- jimmy the hand, would put Silk into a woodchipper

and laugh

This post has been edited by Macros: 07 July 2017 - 10:05 PM

[Chance]

Finished up Legion of Flame and it was good, perhaps a bit less good then the last one. Way more predictable in some places at least. Still it was a good ride and I eagerly await the next one. What to read next is the question I'm kinda inclined towards American Elsewhere even if that would be jumping the queue by a lot, looking at it however it seems last years lull in reading but not acquiring titles might actually have brought my available reading list into "not going to be done anytime this decade" territory so fuck it.

[Abyss]

Macros, on 07 July 2017 - 10:03 PM, said:

...

I stand by my Midkemia read order and should/should not read calls.

Buchaneer is undoubtedly the weakest book I list, but it sets a lot of scene for the Serpentwar Trilogy (TRILOGY< THERE WAS NO FOURTH BOOK)

It does, but it's not worth it. MERCHANT PRINCE is tedious and not nearly as clever as it tries to be, and the military parts of the series, while quite good, are predictable and ultimately useless because in the end they still need the Big Gun characters to save the day.

Quote

jimmy the hand, would put Silk into a woodchipper

and laugh

Yes, and then turn around and find Silk standing there, smirking because he switched himself for one of Jimmy's friends... let's say, oh, I dunno, Arutha... then stole Jimmy's knives, money, socks, the phone numbers of his last three girlfriends and had a nice cold beer while Jimmy was feeding his own mentor into the wood chipper. Also, photos of Silk in a threesome with Dash and Gamina, just because.

[Macros]

A threesome with dash and his grandmother?
Really?

No.

Silk would be standing being the fucking douche he always is and Jimmy would slip a knife in his back.
He wouldn't even ask Gamina for help. He would just take Silks body and throw it into the fucking bay.
Once again, the serpent Trilogy has some seriously awesome parts, but really do need Buchaneer to fully set up.
And yes every book he has ever written bare Honoured Enemy has a massive deus ex

[Abyss]

Macros, on 09 July 2017 - 09:04 AM, said:

A threesome with dash and his grandmother?
Really?

No.

Silk would be standing being the fucking douche he always is and Jimmy would slip a knife in his back.
He wouldn't even ask Gamina for help. He would just take Silks body and throw it into the fucking bay.
Once again, the serpent Trilogy has some seriously awesome parts, but really do need Buchaneer to fully set up.
And yes every book he has ever written bare Honoured Enemy has a massive deus ex

Oh, right, Lockley, not Dash. Been a while.

[polishgenius]

In a contest of wits between Jimmy the Hand and Silk, the winner would definitely be Ffard and the Grey Mouser.

Or possibly Arsene Lupin.

[Macros]

I haven't actually read any of the Grey Mouser books.
Is there a preferred reading order or are some better than others?

[Abyss]

Macros, on 10 July 2017 - 12:52 PM, said:

I haven't actually read any of the Grey Mouser books.
Is there a preferred reading order or are some better than others?

I have a soft spot for these stories and think they're pretty great 'classic' fantasy (i've never really understood how 'swords and sorcery' is a separate subgenre, but that too i suppose).

The quality is pretty consistent throughout and each is standalone that takes place more or less at a random point in the characters' history, so there is no particular order.


Publication order more or less works but isn't necessary. The SWORDS AND DEVILTRY collection is chronologically first and includes the story of how the two met.

https://en.wikipedia...the_Gray_Mouser

If you enjoy, it's worth getting the graphic novel collection by Chaykin and Mignola, its pretty awesome. https://www.darkhors...the-Gray-Mouser

[Abyss]

Just finished VE Schwab's SHADES OF MAGIC trilo (in earbook).

Y'know that feeling when you read an entire series start to finish and it's great and has a satisfying end and reminds you why you enjoy fantasy lit? Well, that.

This is fun, solid fantasy. Dark at times, with great characters written well. The magic itself isn't wildly novel, basic element based magic with 'blood' magic thrown in for the more powerful, but the setting is terrific.
Four Londons.... Grey, Red, White and Black. Black was overtaken by magic, and Red closed all the portals between worlds to protect itself, leaving White, closer to Black, to shrivle and fade with little magic to survive.
Grey London is 'our' world, in the 1800s. My only real critique of the series is that 1800s London reads like the author read a Wikipedia article or two about it, but it's a small part of the story and not a serious down point. Red and White Londons are fantastically written and the wider worlds, while getting less screen time, are just as fascinating.

The characters are well realized and interact wonderfully, surprising the reader in ways that make perfect, at times frustrating sense.
Terrific action scenes.... bk 2 features a magic competition that's pure fantasy candy, and elsewhere when fights happen the pace is tight, the action real and bloody but not overdone.

Book 3 has one of of the bestest 'magic market of magic things' settings i have read in ages.

I also give the author credit for not shirking away from including same sex relationships in the story in part as an accepted cultural thing, but also as a problem for some.

I would utterly read more in this world by this author, whether she revisitted these characters or new ones.

Worth your money and eyetime.
The earbooks have Michael Kramer and Kate Reading as narrators, which is glorious if earbooks are your thing.



...on the Mike Carey's THE BOY ON THE BRIDGE in earbook.


In ebook SENLIN ASCENDS is still suffering my lack of eyetime, but great when i can manage it.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 10 July 2017 - 02:12 PM, said:

Just finished VE Schwab's SHADES OF MAGIC trilo (in earbook).

Y'know that feeling when you read an entire series start to finish and it's great and has a satisfying end and reminds you why you enjoy fantasy lit? Well, that.

This is fun, solid fantasy. Dark at times, with great characters written well. The magic itself isn't wildly novel, basic element based magic with 'blood' magic thrown in for the more powerful, but the setting is terrific.
Four Londons.... Grey, Red, White and Black. Black was overtaken by magic, and Red closed all the portals between worlds to protect itself, leaving White, closer to Black, to shrivle and fade with little magic to survive.
Grey London is 'our' world, in the 1800s. My only real critique of the series is that 1800s London reads like the author read a Wikipedia article or two about it, but it's a small part of the story and not a serious down point. Red and White Londons are fantastically written and the wider worlds, while getting less screen time, are just as fascinating.

The characters are well realized and interact wonderfully, surprising the reader in ways that make perfect, at times frustrating sense.
Terrific action scenes.... bk 2 features a magic competition that's pure fantasy candy, and elsewhere when fights happen the pace is tight, the action real and bloody but not overdone.

Book 3 has one of of the bestest 'magic market of magic things' settings i have read in ages.

I also give the author credit for not shirking away from including same sex relationships in the story in part as an accepted cultural thing, but also as a problem for some.

I would utterly read more in this world by this author, whether she revisitted these characters or new ones.

Worth your money and eyetime.

Admit it, you just want Kell's coat like the rest of us!