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I think that, no matter the races an author invents, they will always be compared to legacy stuff people know. Of course Andii are not elves, though they may have similar traits. But there it ends, imo. I think that claiming that SE ripped of popular races and simply gave them a new name is doing the author injustice. The world is far, far more complex than we can ever even gather from the books themselves, so are the races.
Andii Elves
#62 Guest_Corporal Ender_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:29 PM
Not to rip up a thread that seems to have been discussed thoroughly enough, but just throwing in a comment.
IMO, some elements og SE's story does have strong parallels to earlier fantasy stuff.
- For the numerous examples given earlier, when I read the books, the Tiste races immediately reminded me of the steroetypical elves. They still do.
But that they remind me of elves is no bad thing, because first of all, they ARE Tiste, and not elves. Second, the way thay are written makes them fit the story and the world perfectly and no consideration beyond that is really necessary.
- And how about the dragons all originating from Tiam? I won't pretend to know where this term originated, but I know that the ancient mother-of-all-dragons in Dragonlance and D&D is called Tiamat. Come on, this can't be entirely a coincidence, can it? But again, not saying it is a bad thing - and definitely not to criticise SE, I love the man - but simply to state the fact that yes, even this author does get inspiration.
- A lot of other things spring to mind while reading - for example the Wyval reminded me very much of the D&D Wyvern, and, to some extent, the Warrens could be compared to D&D 'Planes' i.e. The Warren of Tellann = The Elemental Plane of Fire. The summoning and binding of demons could be mentioned as well. And so on and so forth.
But, with regard to the purpose of the thread, I think we may all agree that yes it is undeniable that some elements of SE's fantasy has been influenced by stuff Mr. Erikson himself has seen/read/played. Thus answering the question we are all discussing (which is not whether this is good or bad, simply whether it is true or false).
After all, one has got to get one's inspiration somewhere, and although SE is - again I believe we all agree here - extremely original and innovative in the way he uses the genre, some parallels are bound to exist.
As mentioned above, SE has played D&D, so naturally he has taken the few elements he thought would benefit his world, and then discarded the rest - and for this he is praised indeed!
There is no doubt in my mind, Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series is the best I have yet to read. And with the prospect of The Bonehunters, it seems things are going to remain that way
IMO, some elements og SE's story does have strong parallels to earlier fantasy stuff.
- For the numerous examples given earlier, when I read the books, the Tiste races immediately reminded me of the steroetypical elves. They still do.
But that they remind me of elves is no bad thing, because first of all, they ARE Tiste, and not elves. Second, the way thay are written makes them fit the story and the world perfectly and no consideration beyond that is really necessary.
- And how about the dragons all originating from Tiam? I won't pretend to know where this term originated, but I know that the ancient mother-of-all-dragons in Dragonlance and D&D is called Tiamat. Come on, this can't be entirely a coincidence, can it? But again, not saying it is a bad thing - and definitely not to criticise SE, I love the man - but simply to state the fact that yes, even this author does get inspiration.
- A lot of other things spring to mind while reading - for example the Wyval reminded me very much of the D&D Wyvern, and, to some extent, the Warrens could be compared to D&D 'Planes' i.e. The Warren of Tellann = The Elemental Plane of Fire. The summoning and binding of demons could be mentioned as well. And so on and so forth.
But, with regard to the purpose of the thread, I think we may all agree that yes it is undeniable that some elements of SE's fantasy has been influenced by stuff Mr. Erikson himself has seen/read/played. Thus answering the question we are all discussing (which is not whether this is good or bad, simply whether it is true or false).
After all, one has got to get one's inspiration somewhere, and although SE is - again I believe we all agree here - extremely original and innovative in the way he uses the genre, some parallels are bound to exist.
As mentioned above, SE has played D&D, so naturally he has taken the few elements he thought would benefit his world, and then discarded the rest - and for this he is praised indeed!
There is no doubt in my mind, Steven Erikson's Malazan Book of the Fallen series is the best I have yet to read. And with the prospect of The Bonehunters, it seems things are going to remain that way
#63 Guest_Indebted_*
Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:17 PM
Tiste Andii: An ancient, drifting people, whom the rest of the world has largely left behind. They exist solely to assuage their own despair, dedicating themselves to causes both irrelevant and futile in a quest for purpose, whilst thriving purely on melancholy and melodrama. And they have a penchant for black.
They're not Elves...
They're Goths.
Slightly off topic, but to qualify my earlier statement, that high fantasy requires the presence of Elves, Dragons, Wolves and Eunuchs... or Tiste, Eleint, Ay and Korbal Broach respectively, par example... I'm currently reading "The Darkness That Comes Before" by R. Scott Bakker, a superb book I discovered via this forum. Dragons have been mentioned in Achamian's dreams several times, and, lo and behold, page 100 and something, and there are fat eunuchs in abundance! I have a feeling the Sranc will turn out to be a little bit bit elfin, and so I'm waiting with abated breath for the first wolf to turn up...
They're not Elves...
They're Goths.
Slightly off topic, but to qualify my earlier statement, that high fantasy requires the presence of Elves, Dragons, Wolves and Eunuchs... or Tiste, Eleint, Ay and Korbal Broach respectively, par example... I'm currently reading "The Darkness That Comes Before" by R. Scott Bakker, a superb book I discovered via this forum. Dragons have been mentioned in Achamian's dreams several times, and, lo and behold, page 100 and something, and there are fat eunuchs in abundance! I have a feeling the Sranc will turn out to be a little bit bit elfin, and so I'm waiting with abated breath for the first wolf to turn up...
#64
cauthon 
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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:47 AM
Isn't Tiamat an ancient Babylonian god? Perhaps at least some ideas come from there. After all, SE is an archaeologist, iirc. Using ancient mythology would be kinda cool imo.
#66 Guest_DSPaul_*
Posted 18 January 2006 - 05:00 PM
jitsukerr said:
Jaghut -- Trolls/Ogres
Aren't the Jaghut green-skinned? Orcs are often depicted with green skin and tusks -- not in Tolkien, but in some later fantasy settings like Warcraft. The Jaghut's behavior doesn't seem very orclike, though (except maybe for the tyrants).
#67 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:23 PM
If anything the Tiste Andii are based on Moorcocks Melinoboneans. Both have a leader with a soul sucking big black sword. Both leaders are prone to melancholy. Both races have close relationships with dragons. Both use sorcery. Both races are withdrawn and somewhat Higher than standard humanity. Both have exotic eyes and ears. Elric is in fact the negative of Rake. Elric is an albino you see.
And the parallels don't end there. You get echo after echo in the Malazan books of Moorcocks supreme invention of Law-Chaos-The Cosmic Balance. In fact so superb was Moorcocks invention (used throughout all his Champion Eternal series) that whole D&D and Games Workshop Worlds and Game Playing systems are still based on it. Like the 8 pointed star of Chaos and the like. People don't know that, why should they ? I do though. But It don't bother me one whit, because all I do is smile and think "That Michael Moorcock was a remarkable fellah. He quietly invented loads of stuff, which ends up in loads of books and games, and people still think it's all Tolkien"
And the parallels don't end there. You get echo after echo in the Malazan books of Moorcocks supreme invention of Law-Chaos-The Cosmic Balance. In fact so superb was Moorcocks invention (used throughout all his Champion Eternal series) that whole D&D and Games Workshop Worlds and Game Playing systems are still based on it. Like the 8 pointed star of Chaos and the like. People don't know that, why should they ? I do though. But It don't bother me one whit, because all I do is smile and think "That Michael Moorcock was a remarkable fellah. He quietly invented loads of stuff, which ends up in loads of books and games, and people still think it's all Tolkien"
#68
Brys
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Posted 18 January 2006 - 06:24 PM
Gode said:
Wow, how did it never occur to me that Anomander was just like Elric?
Tee hee... http://rinkworks.com...ock.elric.shtml
Don't click on that, if you object to Elric spoilers. *chuckles* Though that's an amusing site, and may be worth a quick glance.
Tee hee... http://rinkworks.com...ock.elric.shtml
Don't click on that, if you object to Elric spoilers. *chuckles* Though that's an amusing site, and may be worth a quick glance.
I knew Anomander was similar to Elric, in a few ways, at least. But the Tiste are hardly elves - who are the Edur similar to? Perhaps they aren't as blatently original as Mieville's catacae, but they're not simply elves either. Just as K'chain Che'malle or Jaghut aren't simply orcs (those who claim Tiste Andii are elves are probably looking to fit Erikson's races all to their adored stereotypes).
The Andii share some traits - long life, graceful, magically skilled - but Tolkien's elves had a clear sense of purpose and knew they had the lands of the undying to retreat to if things turned against them. They were nothing like as melancholy, their race was never really at a risk of being destroyed. The Andii, while powerful, are melancholy and they are searching for purpose, trying to survive. As bc7 said, the Tiste are much closer to Moorcock's Melniboneans than they are to Tolkien's elves.
#69
Morgoth
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Posted 19 January 2006 - 04:00 PM
The whole chaos thing is really more a Lovecraft invention rather than Moorcock i'd say.
And comparing orcs to the Jaghut is ridiculous.. Like saying that the Liosan are europeans and the Andii are africans
And comparing orcs to the Jaghut is ridiculous.. Like saying that the Liosan are europeans and the Andii are africans
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#70 Guest_bc7_*
Posted 19 January 2006 - 08:32 PM
Well I think it's a certainty that Lovecraft was a huge influence on Moorcock, but I'd argue that Moorcocks vision, if you like, touched up the Chaos-Law mythos enough to make it the Games playing tool it is today.
#71
Werthead
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Posted 29 January 2006 - 09:07 PM
And between Lovecraft and Moorcock, there was Vance, who directly inspired so many elements of D&D (the magic system, the way of casting spells, the IOUN stones and so forth) that Gygax should be forever grateful he didn't get sued into the ground.
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#72 Guest_Faraed_*
Posted 31 January 2006 - 05:49 AM
Gode said:
Chaos, what he meant about exceptional fighters was that while there are plenty of exceptional fighters among humans, they're just that... exceptions. The average human is a terrible fighter. 
Whereas the average elf, errr, I mean, Tiste Andii, is a very good fighter.
That's the difference.
Whereas the average elf, errr, I mean, Tiste Andii, is a very good fighter.
That's the difference.
But in House of chains when Cutter is defending the island with the Shadow Throne against the Tiste Edur the only Tiste Andii on the island that could fight was Andarist the rest of them were unskilled at fighting
#73
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Posted 31 January 2006 - 08:29 AM
heheh... I seem to be answering a lot of your posts...it' just the luck of the draw .. I'm not stalking you
The Andii on the island were not trained in fighting - Andarist had been a bit anal about it, and therefore they were unprepared to fight anyone.
A lot different to the Andii who have been living in Moon's Spawn and were fighting with Caladan Brood and Kazz D'Avore.
The Andii on the island were not trained in fighting - Andarist had been a bit anal about it, and therefore they were unprepared to fight anyone.
A lot different to the Andii who have been living in Moon's Spawn and were fighting with Caladan Brood and Kazz D'Avore.
#74
Abyss
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Posted 08 February 2006 - 03:01 PM
I vaguely recall that in GotM or MoI, Rake drew a distinction between the Andii soldiers assisting Brood and the priests and whatever slacking off in Moon's Spawn.
And there was the conversation in MoI between WJ and Korlat that pretty clearly showed Andii, however powerful, weren't immune to a well tossed cusser.
- Abyss, prefers a well tossed salad.
And there was the conversation in MoI between WJ and Korlat that pretty clearly showed Andii, however powerful, weren't immune to a well tossed cusser.
- Abyss, prefers a well tossed salad.
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