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another thing, arent the tiste races sometimes referred to as eleint? and doesnt eleint also often refer to elves? i think maybe
when it comes down to it though, the andii are much cooler then tolkeins elves
Andii Elves
#21
Trotts 
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:06 PM
definetly not arguing that andii are elves ripoffs, only that andii are quite similar to elves
another thing, arent the tiste races sometimes referred to as eleint? and doesnt eleint also often refer to elves? i think maybe
when it comes down to it though, the andii are much cooler then tolkeins elves
another thing, arent the tiste races sometimes referred to as eleint? and doesnt eleint also often refer to elves? i think maybe
when it comes down to it though, the andii are much cooler then tolkeins elves
#22
Folken
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Posted 16 December 2005 - 09:20 PM
Elient refers to Dragons. Anomander Rake, Osric, Bloodeye, Ruin, are all Elients.
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#24
QuickTidal
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:33 AM
Okay, is it just me....but I find all the different creatures and people in the Malazan world to be wholly different than most other fantasy I've read. I never equated the Andii with Elves. That's part of what I like about SE's creatures....they are unique.
If that's just me, then that's cool, but I feel kinda bad that others don't get to see it that way, and feel the need to compare.
to each their own then...
If that's just me, then that's cool, but I feel kinda bad that others don't get to see it that way, and feel the need to compare.
to each their own then...
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"Someone will always try to sell you despair, just so they don't feel alone." ~Ursula Vernon
#25
dktorode
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:06 AM
mr Tolkien practically (if not actually) invented elves!
wat is the problem? elves are elves... andii are indii! if SE wanted elves he would have said elves and saved us all the problem.many other succesfull authers have done so!!!
Tolkien even invented the spelling for elves, dwaves and god knows what else! (editors wanted elfs and dwarfs..iirc and peolpe even spell them diff now aswell...*americans*) anyway the whole thing is elves look like elves even if they are dark elves! still blond haired blue eyed etc..etc...! and should anybody that is in a book that resembles any of these traits (excluding longevity because thats just bollocks!) be considered to be an elve that is also just stupid! the only thing that connects the two is height(stupid) and longevity(stupidx2)
ive watched movies (dungeons and dragons) that have cast black people as elves wich is just plain old incorrect!!!!! elves are fair and that is that!...thats what they are!!...black people wouldnt want white people calling micheal jackson white would they;)
you get my point there is no way erikson ever thought of elves when he was thinking of the tiste.....unless later on in the series we find that the andii come from a realm so full of foilage and trees that it appears to be completely dark!
RUBBISH!
wat is the problem? elves are elves... andii are indii! if SE wanted elves he would have said elves and saved us all the problem.many other succesfull authers have done so!!!
Tolkien even invented the spelling for elves, dwaves and god knows what else! (editors wanted elfs and dwarfs..iirc and peolpe even spell them diff now aswell...*americans*) anyway the whole thing is elves look like elves even if they are dark elves! still blond haired blue eyed etc..etc...! and should anybody that is in a book that resembles any of these traits (excluding longevity because thats just bollocks!) be considered to be an elve that is also just stupid! the only thing that connects the two is height(stupid) and longevity(stupidx2)
ive watched movies (dungeons and dragons) that have cast black people as elves wich is just plain old incorrect!!!!! elves are fair and that is that!...thats what they are!!...black people wouldnt want white people calling micheal jackson white would they;)
you get my point there is no way erikson ever thought of elves when he was thinking of the tiste.....unless later on in the series we find that the andii come from a realm so full of foilage and trees that it appears to be completely dark!
RUBBISH!
...┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐...
Why dont they make the whole plane out of that black box stuff?
Why dont they make the whole plane out of that black box stuff?
#26 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:31 AM
Dktorode, as we were discussing earlier, in the D&D mythology, elves are divided into a number of different elven sub-races.
Generally, the most common are the High Elves and Dark Elves. High Elves are the Tolkien-style elves, and tend to be good, if snobby. They have light skin, etc. All that stuff. Dark Elves are their hated enemies. They have silver hair and black skin, and live underground. Dark Elves tend to be mean, and enslave and kill whichever High Elves they tend to encounter.
The Tiste Andii seem to be a blending of the Dark Elf and High Elf stereotypes.
But if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, if I re-wrote Star Wars, but gave Luke Skywalker a different name and made him black with dark hair, that would make the story entirely different?
Generally, the most common are the High Elves and Dark Elves. High Elves are the Tolkien-style elves, and tend to be good, if snobby. They have light skin, etc. All that stuff. Dark Elves are their hated enemies. They have silver hair and black skin, and live underground. Dark Elves tend to be mean, and enslave and kill whichever High Elves they tend to encounter.
The Tiste Andii seem to be a blending of the Dark Elf and High Elf stereotypes.
But if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, if I re-wrote Star Wars, but gave Luke Skywalker a different name and made him black with dark hair, that would make the story entirely different?
#27
Folken
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 02:26 AM
Just a tiny question.
Does it matter if Andii are Elves?
Does it matter if Andii are Elves?
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#28 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 17 December 2005 - 02:59 AM
Jen'isand, does anything we talk about on this board ACTUALLY matter?
#29
Folken
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 03:19 AM
yes sure it does. I'm just asking wether having them be like Elves is a crime or something? It doesn't take away anything from the quality of the story. If morons like GOOkind can rip-off 99.99% of their story from Robert Jordan and sell kagillion copies, I'm sure its okay if 1% of Erikson's story doesn't seem original.
<div align='center'>You must always strive to be the best, but you must never believe that you are - Juan Manuel Fangio</div>
#30 Guest_Gode_*
Posted 17 December 2005 - 03:45 AM
No, you make a good point, Jen'isand. First of all, I think I should mention the obvious; namely, that if someone is on this board at all, they obviously think that SE's Malazan series is really friggin' awesome.
Sometimes when people bring up complaints, board members lose sight of the fact that the entire reason that we're all here is because we loved the series. We loved reading it, we love talking about it.
So, that said, this is less a bashing of the creativity of SE, so much as it is just a couple of fans talking about the series.
There you have it.
Sometimes when people bring up complaints, board members lose sight of the fact that the entire reason that we're all here is because we loved the series. We loved reading it, we love talking about it.
So, that said, this is less a bashing of the creativity of SE, so much as it is just a couple of fans talking about the series.
There you have it.
#31
fortyseven
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 07:45 AM
original ideas are hard to come by. An entire series of books with only original ideas would be astronomically difficult. I often read soemthing and think hey that character, place, magic system, religion, theme, ideology, etc are similar to something else I've read.
Saying the Andii are Elves is ridiculous and shallow and narrow minded.. Erikson created a world with many sentient species. The FA have similarities to the Asgard from Stargate SG-1 but they aren't the same and neither ripped the idea off the other!
Saying the Andii are Elves is ridiculous and shallow and narrow minded.. Erikson created a world with many sentient species. The FA have similarities to the Asgard from Stargate SG-1 but they aren't the same and neither ripped the idea off the other!
#32
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 11:47 AM
When I first read the description in GotM of the first Tiste we meet, Anomander Rake, it made me think of C.S. Friedman's Gerald Tarrant, skin colour aside of course. I really liked him as a character 
(but then I fancied Legolas in the LoTR film - I'm over it now however, and the doctor says I can stop taking the tablets soon.....
)
But yep, the Andii certainly have that Dark Elf appearance in my mind... if tall, elegant, kick-ass fighters with a sombre outlook on life can be seen as elvish ..
Don't quite see the Edur that way, they have a more brutish appearance in my mind... probably due to the appalling cover of Midnight Tides, which still hurts mine eyes
But why stop at elves?
there are dragons in the books as well.. not that they've made much of an appearance in the normally accepted sense of a dragon's characteristics... which are flying, being ridden, breeding, laying magical eggs (which everyone wants for whatever reason...) mental telepathy, transportation..
I do feel SE's use of dragons will not turn the 'sense' of them into pets.. that they will have dignity..but they are another example of creatures which appear across the genre... Martin, Jordan, Tolkien et al...
And magic wielders, sorcerers, mages, wizards, witches, warlocks... they're pretty pervasive....
And feuding nations.. wars across realms.. characters with magic weapons.. alien sentient races..
anyone see any resemblance to fantasy novels?
(but then I fancied Legolas in the LoTR film - I'm over it now however, and the doctor says I can stop taking the tablets soon.....
)But yep, the Andii certainly have that Dark Elf appearance in my mind... if tall, elegant, kick-ass fighters with a sombre outlook on life can be seen as elvish ..
Don't quite see the Edur that way, they have a more brutish appearance in my mind... probably due to the appalling cover of Midnight Tides, which still hurts mine eyes
But why stop at elves?
there are dragons in the books as well.. not that they've made much of an appearance in the normally accepted sense of a dragon's characteristics... which are flying, being ridden, breeding, laying magical eggs (which everyone wants for whatever reason...) mental telepathy, transportation..
I do feel SE's use of dragons will not turn the 'sense' of them into pets.. that they will have dignity..but they are another example of creatures which appear across the genre... Martin, Jordan, Tolkien et al...
And magic wielders, sorcerers, mages, wizards, witches, warlocks... they're pretty pervasive....
And feuding nations.. wars across realms.. characters with magic weapons.. alien sentient races..
anyone see any resemblance to fantasy novels?
#34
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 12:07 PM
Ok.... so I'm shallow ... but at least I 'fessed up ..
In the books my favourite was Glorfindel... for whatever reason.. I think probably because he didn't feature an awful lot, didn't seem to sing and spout awful poetry every five minutes, and didn't clamber around in trees ...oh yeah. and he rode a shiny white horse.. I was 10 and into horses you see...
Glorfindel defines my ideas of what a Tiste Liosan might look like... the Uruk Hai more closely resemble the Tiste Edur on the cover of MT
... but at least I 'fessed up .. In the books my favourite was Glorfindel... for whatever reason.. I think probably because he didn't feature an awful lot, didn't seem to sing and spout awful poetry every five minutes, and didn't clamber around in trees ...oh yeah. and he rode a shiny white horse.. I was 10 and into horses you see...
Glorfindel defines my ideas of what a Tiste Liosan might look like... the Uruk Hai more closely resemble the Tiste Edur on the cover of MT
#35
dktorode
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 01:21 PM
Gode said:
Dktorode, as we were discussing earlier, in the D&D mythology, elves are divided into a number of different elven sub-races.
Generally, the most common are the High Elves and Dark Elves. High Elves are the Tolkien-style elves, and tend to be good, if snobby. They have light skin, etc. All that stuff. Dark Elves are their hated enemies. They have silver hair and black skin, and live underground. Dark Elves tend to be mean, and enslave and kill whichever High Elves they tend to encounter.
The Tiste Andii seem to be a blending of the Dark Elf and High Elf stereotypes.
But if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, if I re-wrote Star Wars, but gave Luke Skywalker a different name and made him black with dark hair, that would make the story entirely different?
Generally, the most common are the High Elves and Dark Elves. High Elves are the Tolkien-style elves, and tend to be good, if snobby. They have light skin, etc. All that stuff. Dark Elves are their hated enemies. They have silver hair and black skin, and live underground. Dark Elves tend to be mean, and enslave and kill whichever High Elves they tend to encounter.
The Tiste Andii seem to be a blending of the Dark Elf and High Elf stereotypes.
But if I'm reading what you're saying correctly, if I re-wrote Star Wars, but gave Luke Skywalker a different name and made him black with dark hair, that would make the story entirely different?
oh!!!! I unfortunately (to my eternal shame) know nothing of D&D...
seems a bit sacraligous to me though:D
your liuke skywalker statement is so of the mark!...i was trying to say that if SE wanted elves he would have said elves
many authers have done so with great success! its not a crime to use elves in fantasy...he uses dragons doesnt he!
so if a andii resembles your so called D&D dark elves then so be it! But i dont think that was the intention though! next thing you gonna tell me that the moranth are a copy of R.E.Feist's Tsurani because of there bug like armor!
you will always find a similrity somewhere... its the law of averages.
...┌∩┐(◣_◢)┌∩┐...
Why dont they make the whole plane out of that black box stuff?
Why dont they make the whole plane out of that black box stuff?
#36
Werthead
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 03:18 PM
Actually, not to sound like a D&D geek, but I think the poster was referring to the drow, the dark elves from Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms. In other settings such as Dragonlance the term 'dark elf' refers to a normal elf who has turned to evil or become amoral in some manner, not a somewhat biologically different species.
As well as the high elves and the drow, there are also grey/moon elves, green/wood elves, wild elves and sea elves. Few of them seem to have much in common with the Tiste Andii. The Andii always reminded me of samurai, if nothing else, due to their extreme bad-assadness and refusal to bow down even to a clearly superior foe.
Also, Rorbert Jordan doesn't use dragons in the traditional sense. The term 'dragon' in his books refers either to a title given to the leader of the 'good guys' (the Dragon and later the Dragon Reborn) or to a type of cannon.
As well as the high elves and the drow, there are also grey/moon elves, green/wood elves, wild elves and sea elves. Few of them seem to have much in common with the Tiste Andii. The Andii always reminded me of samurai, if nothing else, due to their extreme bad-assadness and refusal to bow down even to a clearly superior foe.
Also, Rorbert Jordan doesn't use dragons in the traditional sense. The term 'dragon' in his books refers either to a title given to the leader of the 'good guys' (the Dragon and later the Dragon Reborn) or to a type of cannon.
#37
Zendog13
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Posted 17 December 2005 - 10:59 PM
You are not alone in that QuickTidal. I been quite happy ignoring the LoTR/DnD world all this time. It is quite nice to conjure up one's own vision of said characters, especially as they are a break from the norm. But then again if one feels they like the likeness of previously mentioned elves etc then by all means do so.
#38
Trotts
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Posted 18 December 2005 - 02:12 AM
i dont think its that andii look like elves/dark elves, not exactly.
more like this, imho both andii and elves are based on humans, but they represent the "super human" generally better then us regular humans, more potent, more pretty, more everything (think protoss, or spacers)
that doesnt mean andii=elves, but rather that andii and elves are similar types of characters.
personally i dont like tolkiens elves very much, they arent fallible in anyway, and they seem to be almost worshipped. the andii on the other hand are just another group of people, albeit powerful people, just tryin to get by.
more like this, imho both andii and elves are based on humans, but they represent the "super human" generally better then us regular humans, more potent, more pretty, more everything (think protoss, or spacers)
that doesnt mean andii=elves, but rather that andii and elves are similar types of characters.
personally i dont like tolkiens elves very much, they arent fallible in anyway, and they seem to be almost worshipped. the andii on the other hand are just another group of people, albeit powerful people, just tryin to get by.
#39
Zendog13
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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:37 AM
Well...theres at least one big difference between them. Elves honour their dead to the point of writing and singing poems/songs of them at their funerals and after. The Andii dont seem particulalry interested in the fates of their fallen. After all its the Rhivi who have taken up the role of looking after Andii killed in battle.
#40
Werthead
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Posted 18 December 2005 - 10:25 PM
The elves in Tolkien are very fallible. In The Silmarillion it is made clear that this 'perfect' race defied the gods and fought one another (during the pursuit of the Silmarils from Valinor to Middle-earth), and even 7,000 years later during Lord of the Rings they are still paying for this hubris. But they do tend to be a stuck-up bunch of arses around 'lesser' races (particularly the dwaves).
