[polishgenius]

To take the discussion away from the other topic and put it in a place where it's not getting tied in with, you know, the evil stuff.



One thing I wanted to note is that having finally had the thought to check if Flat Earth is available on ebook in places other than Kobo - it is, on google play books at least- I read the sampler for the first one, Night's Master. I imagine I will not be the only one put off by the fact that the opening ends in a sex scene with a 16 year old boy who's been stolen and groomed from a literal baby by the titular demon lord. Getting past it it becomes pretty clear that Lee is in no way making this a positive or romantic relationship, at all, but it isn't a comfortable opening.

That said once you get past that the prose is gorgeous and the setting is fascinating. I'll be honest, I haven't decided if I want to continue it, based on that opening, but like I say, it's not a positive depiction in the end.



The book of hers that I've actually given a real go to is Cast a Bright Shadow, the first in the LionWolf trilogy. It's also got a fascinating setting (a sort of dying-earth, though not actually Earth, in a world where some cultures retain high magitech but others are more regressed, in basically an ice age) and great prose. Both times I'm not really sure why I stopped reading, and I do intend to get back. Just for starters, I've not got so far as the actual LionWolf of the title - the son of the initial protagonist- being introduced.

It is worth noting that the book doesn't shy away from sexual violence, so approach with caution if you don't need that right now.

I've also tried The Silver-Metal Lover, which is probably her most renowned work, but I wasn't really feeling that. Iirc, the lead character opens as the kind of unlikeable I find hard to read about, and though I gather part of the point is her getting over that, the book didn't initially give me enough of interest past that to get there. That one is, as far as I know, pretty much a straight-up romance, not an epic fantasy adventure or collection of stories like the other two, so probably a bit more niche to the interests of this board.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 16 January 2025 - 12:27 PM

[Abyss]

I bounced off Lee a few years ago, a 2HBS i frequented had several entire runs of her books and i tried LionWolf and Paradys and found them too close to that Robin Hobb zone of dark mooded character focused story I just don't usually vibe with, despite the obviously exceptional prose.

I've considered going back more than once, and I admit the revelation about Flat Earth has me curious. Audible tells me the series is in earbook tho people seem fairly unhappy w the narrator. May see if the library has it.

[polishgenius]

 Abyss, on 16 January 2025 - 03:59 PM, said:

The Tanith Lee thing blows my mind. How is this not widely known? She's not a name but is far from a complete unknown, and those links are not subtle.

To move the plagiarism discussion away too: I will say that on a surface level scan at least there isn't enough there to call it plagiarism, though the names in particular are cheeky. Enough inspiration that giving credit would have been decent, for sure, but they're not similar characters or settings really. I saw this thread on Bluesky by Silvia Moreno-Garcia, who's evidently more familiar with her work who thinks so as well.

https://bsky.app/pro...t/3lfsr7al2bk2x


I would be interested in reading more to see if Liz Williams' claims that Lee felt there were specific passages Gaiman lifted ring true, because that would be something more concrete.

(that isn't a defense of Gaiman, you know, fuck that guy. But don't go in expecting, you know, The Sandman)


It is surprising as you say though that, regardless of how closely he took from it, that that isn't more known. Like, I know of Tanith Lee, and I've circled Flat Earth for a while because I've heard good things about it more than once, yet I didn't hear of the similarities till now.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 16 January 2025 - 05:37 PM

[QuickTidal]

 polishgenius, on 16 January 2025 - 05:34 PM, said:

ere to call it plagiarism, though the names in particular are cheeky. Enough inspiration that giving credit would have been decent

I think it's definitely close enough that credit was due. Like this is GRRM cribs Tad Williams MS&T....and at least GRRM admits that is indeed the case.

And it's the lack of credit that annoys me, knowing how their career trajectories went.

 polishgenius, on 16 January 2025 - 05:34 PM, said:

It is surprising as you say though that, regardless of how closely he took from it, that that isn't more known. Like, I know of Tanith Lee, and I've circled Flat Earth for a while because I've heard good things about it more than once, yet I didn't hear of the similarities till now.

It shows you the power differential. She obviously knew and was bothered by it, but by then his clout was so strong that she would have been fighting not just against a massive tide, but DC comics too, who are as litigious as Gaiman would have been about it...so methinks her financial situation probably just disallowed her to even try so the similarities stayed in obscurity to everyone who had never read both things.

[polishgenius]

 QuickTidal, on 16 January 2025 - 06:45 PM, said:

I think it's definitely close enough that credit was due. Like this is GRRM cribs Tad Williams MS&T....and at least GRRM admits that is indeed the case.

Yeah. Although I maintain that GRRM also cribbed from Feist's Magician despite claiming he never read it (unless the similarities between them are common similarities with MST, I suppose- but seriously, Westeros is so much the Kingdom flipped sideways, with King's Landing taking both Krondor and Rillanon's place and Crydee as Westeros- and the Starks are so the ConDoin kids, albeit without an Arya).


But yeah it's definitely notable that Gaiman rarely if at all mentioned Tanith Lee despite blurbing other British fantasy writers all over the place.

This post has been edited by polishgenius: 16 January 2025 - 06:50 PM

[Abyss]

 QuickTidal, on 16 January 2025 - 06:45 PM, said:

 polishgenius, on 16 January 2025 - 05:34 PM, said:

ere to call it plagiarism, though the names in particular are cheeky. Enough inspiration that giving credit would have been decent

I think it's definitely close enough that credit was due. Like this is GRRM cribs Tad Williams MS&T....and at least GRRM admits that is indeed the case.

And it's the lack of credit that annoys me, knowing how their career trajectories went.

 polishgenius, on 16 January 2025 - 05:34 PM, said:

It is surprising as you say though that, regardless of how closely he took from it, that that isn't more known. Like, I know of Tanith Lee, and I've circled Flat Earth for a while because I've heard good things about it more than once, yet I didn't hear of the similarities till now.

It shows you the power differential. She obviously knew and was bothered by it, but by then his clout was so strong that she would have been fighting not just against a massive tide, but DC comics too, who are as litigious as Gaiman would have been about it...so methinks her financial situation probably just disallowed her to even try so the similarities stayed in obscurity to everyone who had never read both things.

It remains strange to me... she has five characters, who are gods, who have names. He has five characters, who are gods, who have the same five names.
I ack that may be the entirety of the rip, but on its face with someone with Gaiman's money on the other side that seems like it would be enough to give most american IP lawyers the kind of litigationgasm that 1970s porn is known for.

 polishgenius, on 16 January 2025 - 06:50 PM, said:

 QuickTidal, on 16 January 2025 - 06:45 PM, said:

I think it's definitely close enough that credit was due. Like this is GRRM cribs Tad Williams MS&T....and at least GRRM admits that is indeed the case.

Yeah. Although I maintain that GRRM also cribbed from Feist's Magician despite claiming he never read it (unless the similarities between them are common similarities with MST, I suppose- but seriously, Westeros is so much the Kingdom flipped sideways, with King's Landing taking both Krondor and Rillanon's place and Crydee as Westeros- and the Starks are so the ConDoin kids, albeit without an Arya).
...

more or less Europe-based fantasy 101, i think.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

 Abyss, on 17 January 2025 - 03:35 PM, said:

It remains strange to me... she has five characters, who are gods, who have names. He has five characters, who are gods, who have the same five names.
I ack that may be the entirety of the rip, but on its face with someone with Gaiman's money on the other side that seems like it would be enough to give most american IP lawyers the kind of litigationgasm that 1970s porn is known for.

Which five? The Facebook post QT and I cited sort of implies that Flat Earth has characters named "Dream, Death, Delusion, and Delirium" but going by the Wikipedia page that's not exactly accurate; their names are actually "Chuz, called 'Chuz the Mad', or Delusion's Master [...] the personification of madness"; "Uhlume – called Death's Master, or Lord Death [...] the personification of death"; "Azhriaz, also known as 'Delirium's Mistress' [...] Azhrarn created her with the intention of sowing mischief and woe upon the world, specifically to teach humans the folly of worshiping the gods"; and by "Dream" the FB post seems to be referring to "Azhrarn, called 'Azhrarn the beautiful', Night's Master, or Prince of Demons. Azhrarn is the ruler of the demonic Underworld and lord of all three castes of demons. Azhrarn is the most powerful of the Lords of Darkness, being the personification of wickedness (though the demons are also said to have invented love)." Granted, IDK if they're also referred to as just "Delusion" etc. in the books. OTOH there's plenty of earlier literature that uses personifications of death and so forth, and it's possible that they were drawing on similar sources.

[pat5150]

Planning to read at least the first book to see if the similarities are truly that flagrant.

Given that I've been in the field for 20 years now, plus being a fan of the genre for almost as long before that, I'm perplexed by the fact that I haven't heard about this supposed ripoff in the last few days.

If plagiarism really was an issue, you can be sure that Penguin Books, which was bigger than DC and Gaiman, would have happily sued their asses back in the day. It's odd that we've only learned about this following the Vulture article.

[QuickTidal]

 pat5150, on 17 January 2025 - 04:06 PM, said:

Planning to read at least the first book to see if the similarities are truly that flagrant.

Given that I've been in the field for 20 years now, plus being a fan of the genre for almost as long before that, I'm perplexed by the fact that I haven't heard about this supposed ripoff in the last few days.

If plagiarism really was an issue, you can be sure that Penguin Books, which was bigger than DC and Gaiman, would have happily sued their asses back in the day. It's odd that we've only learned about this following the Vulture article.

Again, I don't think it's blatant plagiarism, I think it's Gaiman cribbing what he wanted, and repurposed it under a DC comics character (who bore no resemblance to Morpheus prior to him taking the character) which was distanced enough from the SFF book-reader community by "comics". It's not plagiarism as in your cheated by copying a wiki entry for homework, it's more that there is not even a whisper of it even begin homage to line up that well even on the surface.


The best example really is GRRM and Tad Williams (which again GRRM gave credit to):

Spoilered for length

Spoiler

The continent was first inhabited by a wise, long-lived race people with magical powers. They got along well with a group of bronze-possessing humans before they were driven to near-extinction by a group of humans from beyond the ocean who wielded iron weapons. The iron-wielders fought with, but later cooperated with the bronze-wielders.
Continent: Osten Ard Wise race: Sithi Bronze humans: Hernstyri and Nabbani Iron humans: Rimmersmen
Continent: Westeros Wise race: Children of the Forest Bronze humans: First Men Iron humans: Andals

A diminutive and reclusive group of humans who live in a swamp and are considered by others to be savage and uncivilized.
Swamp people: Wrannmen Swamp: The Wran
Swamp people: Crannogmen Swamp: The Neck

A group of nomadic, combative, and quarrelsome humans who live on an open, grassy plain and ride horses into battle.
Nomads: Thrithingsmen Plain: Thrithings
Nomads: Dothraki Plain: Dothraki Sea

Race of pale-haired, pales-skinned, misanthropic beings who lived in the northernmost regions of the continent. They are difficult to fight in battle, are accompanied by cold and snowy weather, and are able to control the bodies of humans.
Norns, also known as the white foxes.
The Others, also known as white shadows/Walkers.

Sharp, dark-bladed swords that were crafted with magic.
Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn.
Valyrian Steel swords.

Special white tree that produces white wood and is associated with the wise race.
Witchwood
Weirwood

Sword forged from a meteorite that was wielded by a man who was considered to be the finest knight of his age.
Sword: Thorn Knight: Sir Camaris Sword:
Dawn Knight: Sir Arthur Dayne

A revered and respected king born on a backwater island unites the continent’s previously divided realms and builds a throne out of an unusual material as a symbol of his authority. The throne is uncomfortable to sit on.
King: Prester John Island: Warinsten Realms: Erkynland, Hernystir, Rimmersgard, Nabban. Throne name: the Dragonbone Chair Throne material: Dragon bones
King: Aegon the Conqueror Island: Dragonstone Realms: the North, the Riverlands, the Vale, the Westerlands, the Reach, the Stormlands. Throne name: the Iron Throne Throne material: the swords Aegon’s surrendered opponents.

A cold and bitter king who lives in the shadow of his famous predecessor and whose only daughter is his heir.
King: Elias Predecessor: Prester John Princess: Miriamele
King: Stannis Baratheon Predecessor: Robert Baratheon Princess: Shireen Baratheon

A king never gets over the death of the woman he loved, which ends up causing the entire plot. However, much like Franz Joseph and Sisi, she did not love him as much as she loved her.
King: Elias Woman: Hylissa
King: Robert Baratheon Woman: Lyanna Stark

Red-robed priest and powerful magician who becomes a close advisor to a king to further their own agenda. The king only accepts treatments prepared by the red priest.
Magician-Priest: Pryates King: Elias
Magician-Priest: Melisandre King: Stannis Baratheon

Reddish-haired boy protagonist loves climbing castle walls and is educated by a wise and thoughtful scholar. After his mentor is murdered, he journeys north, befriends the wise race, and discovers that he possesses a strong connection to a magic force/realm, which grants him insightful dreams.
Protagonist: Simon Scholar: Doctor Morgenes Magic: Dream Road
Protagonist: Bran Stark Scholar: Maester Luwin Magic: Greensight

There are more, but these are enough for me, and again GRRM acknowledged this up front. That's the point...Gaiman didn't craft those characters and themes out of the ether...


I'm baffled by the pushback on this...also Pat, in no universe was Penguin Books (at the time) bigger than DC comics who have been under Warner since the 70's....unless you think one of the big 5 film studios is somehow bigger than a book publisher?

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 17 January 2025 - 05:05 PM

[pat5150]

They would have sued DC, not Warner. But such a case would never have made it to court in any event. Sandman was such a cash cow back then that there's no way they would have allowed such legal proceedings to take place. They would have offered Lee a hefty 6-figure settlement to cover this, followed by Gaiman apologizing for "forgetting" to give credit where credit was due.

The fact that people like us, who've been huge SFF fans for decades, only just heard about this a couple of weeks ago is a bit fishy. Of course, this makes me want to read the books even more. Got my hands on all five of them and planning on giving the first one a shot soon.

Sadly, if the similarities are that flagrant, it would make it even worse now that Lee has passed away and couldn't even at least appreciate the long due recognition.

But with this coming straight out of left field, I'm not sure. I mean, I've been following Betsy Wollheim for nearly twenty years, had lunch with her, and attended the Daw annual dinner at the Worldcon in MTL, you would think that such a conspiracy would have been mentioned at some point. . .

[Abyss]

pat5150, on 18 January 2025 - 04:20 AM, said:

They would have sued DC, not Warner. But such a case would never have made it to court in any event. Sandman was such a cash cow back then that there's no way they would have allowed such legal proceedings to take place. They would have offered Lee a hefty 6-figure settlement to cover this, followed by Gaiman apologizing for "forgetting" to give credit where credit was due.

The fact that people like us, who've been huge SFF fans for decades, only just heard about this a couple of weeks ago is a bit fishy. Of course, this makes me want to read the books even more. Got my hands on all five of them and planning on giving the first one a shot soon.

Sadly, if the similarities are that flagrant, it would make it even worse now that Lee has passed away and couldn't even at least appreciate the long due recognition.

But with this coming straight out of left field, I'm not sure. I mean, I've been following Betsy Wollheim for nearly twenty years, had lunch with her, and attended the Daw annual dinner at the Worldcon in MTL, you would think that such a conspiracy would have been mentioned at some point. . .

...or someone crafted one hell of an NDA.

[pat5150]

If there was an NDA, Betsy wouldn't be talking about it on Facebook every day since this came out a few days back. . .

[Abyss]

pat5150, on 18 January 2025 - 02:32 PM, said:

If there was an NDA, Betsy wouldn't be talking about it on Facebook every day since this came out a few days back. . .

Speculation, but if there was an NDA it's unlikely she would have been bound by it. I also have the impression that she speaks her mind.

[pat5150]

As the editor of most of Tanith Lee's works, I figure she would also have to be bound by such an NDA. Especially since her company would benefit from such a disclosure if people began to buy Lee's books in bulk.

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 18 January 2025 - 04:20 AM, said:

They would have sued DC, not Warner. But such a case would never have made it to court in any event. Sandman was such a cash cow back then that there's no way they would have allowed such legal proceedings to take place. They would have offered Lee a hefty 6-figure settlement to cover this, followed by Gaiman apologizing for "forgetting" to give credit where credit was due.

The fact that people like us, who've been huge SFF fans for decades, only just heard about this a couple of weeks ago is a bit fishy. Of course, this makes me want to read the books even more. Got my hands on all five of them and planning on giving the first one a shot soon.

Sadly, if the similarities are that flagrant, it would make it even worse now that Lee has passed away and couldn't even at least appreciate the long due recognition.

But with this coming straight out of left field, I'm not sure. I mean, I've been following Betsy Wollheim for nearly twenty years, had lunch with her, and attended the Daw annual dinner at the Worldcon in MTL, you would think that such a conspiracy would have been mentioned at some point. . .

I'm amused that after a man is outed as being a terrible human and a story comes out of sketchy shit he may have done without crediting a woman in the authorial arena which looks drastically close to at least names if not motivations and actions of characters...some of the knee-jerk reaction is to sort of defend him because since it wasn't "common knowledge" or a Boomer Publisher didn't say anything...


And again NO one is talking that anything was needed here beyond acknowledging the homage...Lee likely had no interest in suing him and the original poster of the similarities was only saying that there was no credit, not that it was copied whole hog....but now it's a plagiarism discussion? and about the legalities? and about Betsy Wolheim? This is why women don't come forward even if it's just to say "Hey this looks a lot like my work"...


And he would not even be in bad company, Stephen King, Stephen Ambrose, ...FFS H.G. Wells...all credibly accused of non-credited homage at best and plagiarism at worst in their careers.


But for some reason we gotta put this under some type of microscope that Tanith Lee's work may have been cribbed in part to Sandman by Neil Gaiman just because he's Neil Gaiman or not enough people read Lee's work that has those similarities? Like Pat, you even said yourself that you hadn't read it...but you're whole swipe here lands you on defending Gaiman as default, while you lack the evidence for it or against it either way, because you can't believe the Publishing industry just let this fly, and/or it hadn't been brought up before.

Big industries ignore stuff like this ALL the time because it's publicly uncomfortable to confront it.

Look, the name, physical and world building similarities are enough for me to say it's uncredited homage at the very least, Your mileage may vary.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

QuickTidal, on 20 January 2025 - 04:29 PM, said:

And again NO one is talking that anything was needed here beyond acknowledging the homage...Lee likely had no interest in suing him and the original poster of the similarities was only saying that there was no credit, not that it was copied whole hog....but now it's a plagiarism discussion? and about the legalities? and about Betsy Wolheim? This is why women don't come forward even if it's just to say "Hey this looks a lot like my work"...

Maybe "no one in this discussion forum" but not "no one elsewhere" (I know, the internet is vast and full of insanities, but this seems relatively mainstream (assuming it's a legitimate attribution)):

Quote

Liz Williams [science fiction author]

[...] Tanith was my friend, as many writers in the UK will attest, especially on the south coast. I did know this, because she told me. We were at a convention - IRC Orbital 8,in 2008 - at which both Neil and Tanith were guests. She told me that she was trying to avoid him because he'd plagiarised a large chunk of her work: not just a bit, but entire paragraphs. She didn't say which book it was from. And she had considerable disdain for him.

https://www.reddit.c...agiarism_claim/

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 20 January 2025 - 06:29 PM

[QuickTidal]

Azath Vitr (D, on 20 January 2025 - 06:27 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 20 January 2025 - 04:29 PM, said:

And again NO one is talking that anything was needed here beyond acknowledging the homage...Lee likely had no interest in suing him and the original poster of the similarities was only saying that there was no credit, not that it was copied whole hog....but now it's a plagiarism discussion? and about the legalities? and about Betsy Wolheim? This is why women don't come forward even if it's just to say "Hey this looks a lot like my work"...

Maybe "no one in this discussion forum" but not "no one elsewhere" (I know, the internet is vast and full of insanities, but this seems relatively mainstream (assuming it's a legitimate attribution)):

Quote

Liz Williams [science fiction author]

[...] Tanith was my friend, as many writers in the UK will attest, especially on the south coast. I did know this, because she told me. We were at a convention - IRC Orbital 8,in 2008 - at which both Neil and Tanith were guests. She told me that she was trying to avoid him because he'd plagiarised a large chunk of her work: not just a bit, but entire paragraphs. She didn't say which book it was from. And she had considerable disdain for him.

https://www.reddit.c...agiarism_claim/

Yeah well that's from the horses mouth then. She believed she was plagiarized...which just proves my point about this even more. She didn't speak up because she was afraid to, either because she knew he had clout or for some other reason.


That just refutes Pat's comments even more then.

[pat5150]

Just started Night's Master tonight. Too early to tell about similarities and it's been too long for me since I last read The Sandman comic books to recognize downright plagiarism on Gaiman's part.

But I should be able to at least recognize overly familiar themes/characters/events.

QT, I get what your saying and perhaps just crediting Lee would have been enough for her. But if she truly felt that way about Gaiman and if the man went as far as copying entire paragraphs, I still have no idea why she wouldn't demand retribution. Given that The Sandman made Gaiman a millionaire back then (and more since) and that the Flat Earth books seemed to have been midlist at best, I'm not sure there is a literary agent in the market that wouldn't have asked Lee to take him to court. Perhaps it happened and she refused? We'll probably never know.

As far as the book is concerned, it's very early yet, but I can tell you that it's otherworldly and lyrical. The prose reminds me a bit of Jacqueline Carey's in the Kushiel novels.

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 21 January 2025 - 02:53 AM, said:

I still have no idea why she wouldn't demand retribution.

The same reason women don't come forward about assault, or sue Donald Trump....because they know it's a losing battle of monetary and mental attrition.

[pat5150]

A little more than a third into Night's Master and I'm really enjoying it. Like Arabian Nights, or One Thousand and One Nights (the proper title), it's a collection of interconnected short stories/vignettes that form a bigger and more far-reaching narrative. The imagery is amazing and the prose whimsical. Absolutely nothing in common with The Sandman so far, but I imagine that might come in subsequent volumes.

You guys should give it a shot, either out of curiosity or due to the Gaiman allegations. It was a 1979 World Fantasy Award nominee for best novel, after all.