[Salt-Man Z]

I've read Tanith Lee's Secret Books of Paradys and Secret Books of Venus and loved both series. Her prose is fantastic, and really draws you in.

[pat5150]

Finished Night's Master and it's a good read. Absolutely nothing in common with The Sandman. A post on Fantasy Faction points out, at least by the people who have read both, that the series have very little in common beyond the names/themes because they are based on the same mythology. It's been over a week, and interestingly enough nobody has found those supposedly copied paragraphs which made it into The Sandman. Given that both series are available digitally, it should have been quick and easy to find them by now. What I didn't know is that it does seem that Gaiman "borrowed" a lot of details from one of Lee's stories when he wrote one of his own short stories. Sorry, can't remember which, but I could go back and get that info if anyone if interested.

Don't get me wrong. Neil Gaiman is an absolute shit if he truly did what he's accused of to these women over the years. And yet, that doesn't mean that all those works that filled us with wonder since he started writing suddenly lose their luster. . .

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

the series have very little in common beyond the names/themes because they are based on the same mythology.

Yeah, this is enough for me...

And WHAT same mythology? Gaiman literally templated this onto the old DC Sandman character who was a green-suited, fedora-wearing dude with a sleep dust gun who sedated criminals so that they could be arrested.

Are you suggesting that some religion or mythology exists that they both copied from somewhere else?

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

Don't get me wrong. Neil Gaiman is an absolute shit if he truly did what he's accused of to these women over the years.

If?


Uh, okay Pat.

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 03:08 PM, said:

And yet, that doesn't mean that all those works that filled us with wonder since he started writing suddenly lose their luster. . .

I assure you, it does. Try reading Calliope now...like...

[pat5150]

The evidence gathered sure looks uncompromising. But until he's proven guilty. . .

QT, I have a question for you. I've perused almost all the Flat Earth reviews on Goodreads. As you can expect, there are a lot of them. How come none that were posted before the last two weeks mention that these stories appear similar to Gaiman's The Sandman. Why did this come out of left field less than 2 weeks ago? That Lee didn't want to face Gaiman in court or just accuse him of borrowing her ideas is one thing. How can hundreds of fans just "overlook" this?

If the similarities are good enough for you, fine. Perhaps that subsequent Flat Earth titles will make me side with you. But tell me how it's possible that we're hearing about now. That no one on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, yada yada yada, never made the connection before the Vulture article?

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pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 04:11 PM, said:

The evidence gathered sure looks uncompromising. But until he's proven guilty. . .

The difference between you and I is that I don't need a court of law to deem him guilty to believe nine separate women who have eerily similar stories are telling the truth. What he admitted to is already enough for me to never want to hear his goddamn name again.

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 04:11 PM, said:

QT, I have a question for you. I've perused almost all the Flat Earth reviews on Goodreads. As you can expect, there are a lot of them. How come none that were posted before the last two weeks mention that these stories appear similar to Gaiman's The Sandman. Why did this come out of left field less than 2 weeks ago? That Lee didn't want to face Gaiman in court or just accuse him of borrowing her ideas is one thing. How can hundreds of fans just "overlook" this?

This is giving "Well, how come no one came forward about his behaviour before now?" vibes. Lee herself is said to have been upset about it...that's enough for me.

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 04:11 PM, said:

If the similarities are good enough for you, fine. Perhaps that subsequent Flat Earth titles will make me side with you.

I mean, I don't need you to side with me. You have your own view. I'll stick with mine. I'm willing to believe that along with the other heinous shit he's done, that he also quite possibly took someone else ideas and grafted them onto something of his own to make money and have power over that person. Shrug.

pat5150, on 27 January 2025 - 04:11 PM, said:

But tell me how it's possible that we're hearing about now. That no one on Reddit, Twitter, Facebook, yada yada yada, never made the connection before the Vulture article?

For the same reason that people didn't real talk about his proclivities at Cons till recently, for the same reasons that Brian Wood got away with being shady to women at Cons for years before being called out, for the same reason that Cosby got away with his shit for decades....because the public was not ready to confront it and the victims didn't want to drag themselves through the muck to fight against a tide.

Someone or something blows things open wider, and then the flood begins. Warren Ellis's transgressions, for example, opened a much bigger flood gate than what was originally suggested.

But again, you do you Pat. You're more than welcome to disagree with me. Lord knows I'm not perfect, I'm just more than willing to buy that Gaiman cribbed these names and notions from her thinking on one would notice. And he was right. No one did. Till now. If it's not enough for you, that's fine. It's enough for me to think he SHOULD have credited her...which is all I (or the original FB post linked) suggested was needed. It was you that took it into full tilt plagiarism...I'm just agreeing with the original post that he should have credited her like the other examples that FB post showcased. Like GRRM did with Tad Williams. It would not have been hard.

Shrug.

[pat5150]

QT, as a fellow Canadian, whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?

For the record, I believe those women. And even if Gaiman maintains that it was always consensual, it surely looks as though we're looking as several cases of sexual misconduct. But let me tell you about Éric Salvail, one of Québec's entertainment heavy-hitters for years and years. Not sure how good your French is, but you can probably find countless articles that you can Google translate if you want to verify my story.

Salvail was on top of the entertainment business in Québec. Host of the most popular late-night TV show following a string of successful TV shows and host of the most popular afternoon radio show, with plenty of other concepts under development, though there were some rumors from time to time, it seemed that the man could do no wrong. Until a man came out (Salvail is gay) and pressed charges for sexual abuse. Three more victims promptly came out with similar charges. While his TV show was airing live, Salvail was taken off the air that night. His radio show was put on hiatus and then cancelled the following day. The preliminary evidence was extremely damning. Haters and detractors were rejoicing as everything associated with Salvail went down the crapper. Awaiting trial, the man had to sell his house because he couldn't show himself anywhere in Québec and was forced to move to Florida. He had to sell his production company for a fraction of its worth because no network or radio station would touch anything that bore his name. By the time the trial began, he was essentially broke and persona non grata. Former friends and colleagues wouldn't defend him or even talk to him.

This finally goes to court. What appeared to be such damning evidence turned out to be a bucket riddled with holes. The victim's testimony lacked credibility. The judge had no choice but to find Salvail innocent of all charges. That was in 2020. It's been 4 years and Salvail still can't get a gig on any media. The public found him guilty from the get-go, so no one has yet garnered the courage to give him a chance. Even though Salvail has got lots and lots of fans. His career is essentially over.

Gaiman's career is also essentially over for the foreseeable future. Whatever projects he had in the pipeline will not see the light any time soon. He has been found guilty by countless people. I have a feeling that he'll want to end these accusations by reaching settlements with those women, which in a sense can be construed as an admission of guilt. Whatever happens, even if this goes to court and ends with Gaiman found innocent, he will never reclaim the fame that he had until a few months back. If he is guilty, that's as it should be. If not, well. . .

As I said, we both believe the women that spoke against Gaiman in the Vulture article. What I have trouble believing is that all of a sudden there are claims that Neil Gaiman was just a talentless hack that stole his ideas (at worse), or else failed to credit the authors whose stories inspired him (at best). That some writers or editors wouldn't want to go public with this against a man with a lot of clout doesn't fly with me because readers would have pointed it out at some point. The same way they did with Terry Goodkind when it was obvious that some of his stuff was way too similar to that of Robert Jordan's Wot. Or how you cannot Google or read a review of R. R. Virdi's works without reading about how he basically copied Patrick Rothfuss' The Name of the Wind. Surely more than one reader who has read both The Sandman and Tales from the Flat Earth would have conected the dots by now? But before a Facebook post that went viral, one that is supported by one of Lee's friends who can unfortunately offer no evidence as to which paragraphs/tales/ideas were stolen almost word for word, we've got nothing. This came straight out of left field.

Which is why I decided to read Tanith Lee's Night's Master. To see if there is evidence after all. Thousands of readers failed to perceive this over the last few decades. Maybe it's just well concealed? I'd like to find out. Just because there's nothing in the first volume doesn't mean that there won't be in the rest of the series.

[pat5150]

For anyone interested, my review of Tanith Lee's Night's Master is up: https://fantasyhotli...hts-master.html