[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Copyright [...] doesn't cover [...] mere ideas, systems, or methods. But it does cover the creative way that a person expresses facts, ideas, and so forth, provided that the expression has sufficient creativity. A roleplaying game book often includes both a description of a mechanical system and creative, fictional elements.

[...]

If all that additional text is just fluff with no game consequences, this version probably contains some elements that are copyrightable.

However, if other game elements trigger [...] based on other fictional elements described here, then the uncopyrightable game system might "merge" with the text here so that it wouldn't be infringement for someone to reproduce this text entirely. Courts are essentially interested in whether the uncopyrightable elements of the work remain available for the public to use, or if the copyright owner is effectively monopolizing them because there simply aren't many different ways to describe the uncopyrightable ideas or system.

[...]

The version of the Open Gaming License (OGL) that has existed since 2000 is very narrow. It permits use of "the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor."

You'll notice that these are the elements that are not copyrightable in the first place. [...]

For most users, accepting this license almost certainly means you have fewer rights to use elements of Dungeons and Dragons than you would otherwise. [...]

The OGL 1.0a includes a strange term claiming that you agree to be bound by this contract by "using" the "Open Game Content," such as the mechanics. [...]

Fortunately, that's not how contracts work. [...]

However, there are a few ways a person might bind themself to this agreement. If you publish a book and say "published pursuant to OGL 1.0a" [...] You might also arguably have agreed to it as part of signing up for an online account with Wizards of the Coast.'

Beware the Gifts of Dragons: How D&D's Open Gaming License May Have Become a Trap for Creators | Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org)

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 12 January 2023 - 11:37 AM

[worry]

I kinda wonder -- as a layman and someone who doesn't play any of these games -- how this OGL even works. Game mechanics aren't copyrightable, but aspects can be patent-able if they meet certain criteria, and of course there's D&D's trademark. But is the OGL (including 1.0, not just 1.1) dressing up specific patents and trademarks like WotC holds copyright over the whole enterprise? I'm not saying it's all smoke and mirrors but it seems like there is some of that, so I'm just curious what they actually have that is actionable (which again, I'm not saying is zero).

[worry]

Oh okay, thanks for posting that Azath.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Azath Vitr (D, on 12 January 2023 - 11:36 AM, said:

'Copyright [...] doesn't cover [...] mere ideas, systems, or methods. But it does cover the creative way that a person expresses facts, ideas, and so forth, provided that the expression has sufficient creativity. A roleplaying game book often includes both a description of a mechanical system and creative, fictional elements.

[...]

If all that additional text is just fluff with no game consequences, this version probably contains some elements that are copyrightable.

However, if other game elements trigger [...] based on other fictional elements described here, then the uncopyrightable game system might "merge" with the text here so that it wouldn't be infringement for someone to reproduce this text entirely. Courts are essentially interested in whether the uncopyrightable elements of the work remain available for the public to use, or if the copyright owner is effectively monopolizing them because there simply aren't many different ways to describe the uncopyrightable ideas or system.

[...]

The version of the Open Gaming License (OGL) that has existed since 2000 is very narrow. It permits use of "the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor."

You'll notice that these are the elements that are not copyrightable in the first place. [...]
For most users, accepting this license almost certainly means you have fewer rights to use elements of Dungeons and Dragons than you would otherwise. [...]

The OGL 1.0a includes a strange term claiming that you agree to be bound by this contract by "using" the "Open Game Content," such as the mechanics. [...]

Fortunately, that's not how contracts work. [...]

However, there are a few ways a person might bind themself to this agreement. If you publish a book and say "published pursuant to OGL 1.0a" [...] You might also arguably have agreed to it as part of signing up for an online account with Wizards of the Coast.'

Beware the Gifts of Dragons: How D&D's Open Gaming License May Have Become a Trap for Creators | Electronic Frontier Foundation (eff.org)

This is the way the Arclands guys are interpreting it and are moving away from 5e and bringing plans for their own rule set forward.

General feeling seems to be this is about taking down Paizo and Pathfinder - I don't think this will pan out the way WotC expect and I hope they reap exactly what they've sown.

[Maark Abbott]

I wonder to what degree it's WOTC and to what degree it's Hasbro - don't we have some ex-Bioware employees here? I wonder what parallels they'd draw to the EA takeover and such.

[QuickTidal]

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 12 January 2023 - 09:35 AM, said:

I've never actually played Pathfinder, so it seems a good time to have a go

From what I hear Pathfinder is great, and there's just a learning curve on crunch and math as it's a bit more intensive than 5eD&D. Anyone I know who plays it on the regular seems to enjoy it once they settle in.

Plus, unlike D&D Fâerun-based stuff which almost ALL takes place on the 'sword coast', while the rest of that massive continent goes massively unexplored in most official materials...Golarion is huge and explored in m any places with many terrains and lots of lore. The fact that Fâerun is so big and the map is so wide, but they stay at that sliver of coast in the west so they can revisit Waterdeep or Neverwinter for the billionth time...is insane.

[Chance]

QuickTidal, on 12 January 2023 - 01:28 PM, said:

TheRetiredBridgeburner, on 12 January 2023 - 09:35 AM, said:

I've never actually played Pathfinder, so it seems a good time to have a go

From what I hear Pathfinder is great, and there's just a learning curve on crunch and math as it's a bit more intensive than 5eD&D. Anyone I know who plays it on the regular seems to enjoy it once they settle in.

Plus, unlike D&D Fâerun-based stuff which almost ALL takes place on the 'sword coast', while the rest of that massive continent goes massively unexplored in most official materials...Golarion is huge and explored in m any places with many terrains and lots of lore. The fact that Fâerun is so big and the map is so wide, but they stay at that sliver of coast in the west so they can revisit Waterdeep or Neverwinter for the billionth time...is insane.

Basically for Pathfinder 1e its D&D 3.5 with the serial numbers filed off and slightly improved for usability and a bit more class equality and general fun. Not played Pathfinder 2e but people I know say its basically what D&D 4e should have been, more crunch then 5e but less then regular pathfinder (which like D&D 3ed can get pretty heavy at higher levels). Golarion is quite an interesting kitchen sink setting, perhaps not very believable or coherent but there is room for a lot of interesting adventure in pretty much any described corner of the world (the adventure path series which are premade campaigns of pretty epic scope is probably one of the big draws of pathfinder in general even if I personally think they need tweeking to even be playable in general). Basically what you want D&D for is the support for specific worlds like Dark Sun, Ferun, Planescape, Magic the Gathering or something else like it and really anyone can move those settings to their system of choice I certainly have done so

This post has been edited by Chance: 12 January 2023 - 04:28 PM

[QuickTidal]

Update from a verified WOTC employee, and hooooooboy....



Huge leak from an insider @Wizards
It's what we feared: the higher ups despise us, the D&D community, and see us only as an "obstacle to their money".
Subs on D&D Beyond are all WotC care about, so I've cancelled mine. Let your voice be heard #opendnd #StopTheSub

image text:
I'm an employee at WotC currently working on and with business leaders on the health of the product line. If you want I can provide proof of this.
I'm sending this message because I fear for the health of a community I love, and I know what the leaders at WOTC are looking at:
They are briefly delaying rollout of OGL changes due to the backlash.
Their decision making is based entirely on the provable impact to their bottom line
Specifically they are looking at DDB subscriptions and cancellations as it is the quickest financial data they currently have.
They are still hoping the community forgets, moves on, and they can still push this through
I have decided to reach out because at my time in WotC I have never once heard management refer to customers in a positive manner, their communication gives me the impression they see customers as obstacles between them and their money, the DDB team was first told to prepare to support the new OGL changes and online portal when they got back from the holidays, and leadership doesnt take any responsibility for the pain and stress they cause others. Leadership's first communication to the rank and file on the OGL was 30 minutes on 1/11/23, This was the first time they even tried to communicate their intentions about the OGL to employees, and even in this meeting they blamed the community for over-reacting.
I will repeat, the main thing this leadership is looking at is DDB subscription cancellations.
Hope your day goes well,
PS will be copying and pasting this message to other community leaders

------------------------

D&D Beyond is (I think) WOTC sub-based toolkit for digital D&D stuff? So yeah, they want to close their system...and no one at the higher tiers of management seems to understand how that whole community works...

I think the most telling bit is that the backlash has not caused them to rethink anything, they are just delaying it in the hopes that the media cycle allows them to push it through anyways...

The problem is that this story is BIG, and with some bigger 3rd party creatives (including, it would seem Pathfinder amongst others) are already looking for a way out....the writing is on the wall. This is very likely the death knell of WOTC as it stands as a leading TTRPG company. I can't see them wiggling out of this even if they re-released 1.0 with an addendum that it could NEVER be revoked...they are not getting the people back that are haemorrhaging out of the connection to WOTC.

So yeah, that effectively ends my relationship as a consumer with WOTC, which means I won't be buying the other two Weis & Hickman DL books in the new trilogy (Note that since the story leaked Weis has been retweeting ALL the people looking to shift away from WOTC, and the original leak article on Gizmodo....so methinks she's pissed too...I wonder how that bodes for the other two books in that new series....), nor will I be buying any more Forgotten Realms stuff....and I feel like I should be boycotting the movie too since I want Hasbro to get the message too. THE DAO OF DRIZZT (which I got for xmas) looks like it's my last WOTC item.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 12 January 2023 - 05:50 PM

[Maark Abbott]

Content warning: explore the profile at your peril as there may be some R34 stuff that pops up.

https://twitter.com/...KqcwKXIjiw&s=19

Yeah this is bad. Corporations can go suck a fuck.

[worry]

(On top of the movie, they also just announced a TV series with Paramount+ -- great timing!)

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

worry, on 12 January 2023 - 10:58 PM, said:

(On top of the movie, they also just announced a TV series with Paramount+ -- great timing!)

And The Legend of Vox Machina season 2 drops Friday next week....

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 13 January 2023 - 12:18 AM

[Gwynn ap Nudd]

D&D Beyond is the official app and online toolkit for D&D. There are others, some of which reportedly have better functionality. You can use it for free, but there are perks with a subscription. I've never used it, but know people who do. The gist I get for the online model is that they want to force the use of D&D Beyond, freezing out the other apps/sites, and move it to a micro-transaction model. E.g. players using it would have access to classes based on the Players Handbook, but using any other races/classes/spells/feats/etc. would cost more. Content for One D&D would come out in dribs and drabs, with players needing to pay more every time to access new content.

Edit: oh, and there are rumours that in the micro-transaction model hard copy purchases would not count on D&D Beyond. If you bought the hard copy of a source book, you would still need to pay extra to use the content through D&D Beyond.

This post has been edited by Gwynn ap Nudd: 13 January 2023 - 12:38 AM

[QuickTidal]

And WOTC cancelled their announcement of the OGL, but methinks they let it stew too long and it’s already too late for damage control….as Paizo has taken their chance to cut the 5 heads off Takhisis…

https://gizmodo.com/...-1-1-1849982443

Since WOTC has twice almost completely annihilated themselves in t is manner, this seems like the time it might stick…fucking idiots

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'A stream of subscribers turning off their payment to D&D Beyond appeared to temporarily shut down the landing page for subscription cancellations because of server errors.

[image of zombie beholder:]

Christian Hoffer on Twitter: "Seems that @DnDBeyond's Subscription Management page is down as a movement grows to cancel subscriptions to protest reported OGL changes. This comes up when you try to use the Subscription Management page. https://t.co/HOlFvvt8zk" / Twitter

The result of these cancellations and their impact on the bottom line of Wizards of the Coast is not negligible, according to io9's sources at the company, and has caused upper management to scramble to adjust their messaging around the situation'

Wizards of the Coast Cancels Today's Announcement After Online Ire (gizmodo.com)

[Maark Abbott]

Their message is clear enough already. We are between them and their money. They can't be any clearer than that.

[Abyss]

It's amazing how totally they underestimated how quickly players and compatible content creators would refuse the new OGL and bail on them.

Especially considering the percentages and property rights they were including.... 'if you make big money you owe us 25% and also we can just take your stuff and sell it ourselves without paying you, thanks for playing'.
RiiiIIIIIiiiiiiight.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 13 January 2023 - 03:54 PM, said:

It's amazing how totally they underestimated how quickly players and compatible content creators would refuse the new OGL and bail on them.

Especially considering the percentages and property rights they were including.... 'if you make big money you owe us 25% and also we can just take your stuff and sell it ourselves without paying you, thanks for playing'.
RiiiIIIIIiiiiiiight.

And not even just 25% profits, they wanted 25% of their REVENUE. That would sink MOST 3pp creators.

You can tell how much the suits at the top haven’t the foggiest clue how any of this works.

Edit: They are basing eaten alive on social media now on their “apology” corporate speak post…lol

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 13 January 2023 - 04:33 PM

[Imperial Historian]

Quote

Has Mercer or anyone CR related commented on the OGL yet?

I'd be surprised if WotC wasn't campaigning (heehee) hard behind the scenes to get them on board.

I believe wotc released a first draft of the ogl to some of there content creators with a non disclosure agreement attached, I'd assume critical role is among those hence a lack of comment.

Since nearly everything so far is leaks and counter leaks I suspect we won't get a comment from critical role until something official is released.

Personally whilst I'm not in the camp that the OGL is some sacred cow, wizards taking some share of high earning business profits that use wotc platform doesn't massively offend me.

That said the leaked changes are so awful I can't see how anyone can support them. Smacks of corporate folk who know nothing about the subject thinking they can make a quick buck.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Wizards of the Coast makes up roughly 70% of Hasbro's value'

Filing: Wizards of the Coast makes up roughly 70% of Hasbro's value - Magic Untapped


'Magic: The Gathering has seen more and more products released with increasing frequency and rising costs that players simply can’t keep up with. Bank of America analysts tore into Hasbro for its overly-aggressive business model for Magic: The Gathering, downgrading its status to “underperform” in the process.

The controversies between Magic: The Gathering and Dungeons and Dragons have caused [or at least contributed to causing] Hasbro stock to drop 35% since the beginning of 2022.'

Hasbro Named One of America's Most JUST Companies at the Most Awkward Time Imaginable (gamerant.com)

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Imperial Historian, on 13 January 2023 - 06:26 PM, said:

Quote

Has Mercer or anyone CR related commented on the OGL yet?

I'd be surprised if WotC wasn't campaigning (heehee) hard behind the scenes to get them on board.

I believe wotc released a first draft of the ogl to some of there content creators with a non disclosure agreement attached, I'd assume critical role is among those hence a lack of comment.

Since nearly everything so far is leaks and counter leaks I suspect we won't get a comment from critical role until something official is released.

Personally whilst I'm not in the camp that the OGL is some sacred cow, wizards taking some share of high earning business profits that use wotc platform doesn't massively offend me.

That said the leaked changes are so awful I can't see how anyone can support them. Smacks of corporate folk who know nothing about the subject thinking they can make a quick buck.

I would assume Critical Role have their own agreement with WotC, either prior to this or in advance of the "leak" recently. Also, they're far too savvy to comment on anything before it's officially released, even if they do have their own agreement.

WotC are getting an absolute roasting for their statement yesterday, and I'm not surprised. The fact they've put so little effort into the lies they're telling being believable is tangible - drafts do not get sent out with mandates of a date to sign them by. Saying you always wanted community feedback is entiely disingenuous - if so, you'd have announced it day one and there would have been surveys etc... you know, the way gather feedback.

When you've lost the community in such a tangible way, it is absolutely not the time to be making cutesy in jokes like "We rolled a 1". Also, that paragraph about how people are going to be saying they won "but we won too" - what? That got through people who are supposed to be good at PR? Ouch.

To be honest, I agree in that them taking some share from people who are profiting from their work isn't terrible (though I don't think the size in the leak is justifible). It's everything else, chief among them the license back mess. The fact they've backtracked on it I don't think is going to convince anyone that they won't try it again in the future, and I can't see Paizo and the other companies involved not proceeding with the plans for ORC.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 14 January 2023 - 09:09 AM