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Sanderson vs Audible!

#1 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 07:48 PM

Not really a fan of his works but this I can get behind...


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"On the tenth or eleventh of each month a book goes to backers, we will put the audiobooks up for sale. They will be on several services, but I recommend the two I mentioned above. Spotify and Speechify.

The books will not be on Audible for the foreseeable future.

This is a dangerous move on my part. I don't want to make an enemy of Amazon (who owns Audible). I like the people at Audible, and had several meetings with them this year.

But Audible has grown to a place where it's very bad for authors. It's a good company doing bad things.

Again, this is dangerous to say, and I don't want to make anyone feel guilty. I have an Audible account, and a subscription! It's how my dyslexic son reads most of the books he reads. Audible did some great things for books, notably spearheading the audio revolution, which brought audiobooks down to a reasonable price. I like that part a lot.

However, they treat authors very poorly. Particularly indie authors. The deal Audible demands of them is unconscionable, and I'm hoping that providing market forces (and talking about the issue with a megaphone) will encourage change in a positive direction.

If you want details, the current industry standard for a digital product is to pay the creator 70% on a sale. It's what Steam pays your average creator for a game sale, it's what Amazon pays on ebooks, it's what Apple pays for apps downloaded. (And they're getting heat for taking as much as they are. Rightly so.)

Audible pays 40%. Almost half. For a frame of reference, most brick-and-mortar stores take around 50% on a retail product. Audible pays indie authors less than a bookstore does, when a bookstore has storefronts, sales staff, and warehousing to deal with.

I knew things were bad, which is why I wanted to explore other options with the Kickstarter. But I didn't know HOW bad. Indeed, if indie authors don't agree to be exclusive to Audible, they get dropped from 40% to a measly 25%. Buying an audiobook through Audible instead of from another site literally costs the author money.

Again, I like the people at Audible. I like a lot about Audible. I don't want to go to war—but I do have to call them out. This is shameful behavior. I'll bet you every person there will say they are a book lover. And yet, they are squeezing indie authors to death. I had several meetings with them, and I felt like I could see their embarrassment in their responses and actions. (Though that's just me reading into it, not a reference to anything they said.)

Here's the problem. (I'm sorry for going on at length. I'm passionate about this though.) There are no true competitors to Audible. Sure, there are other companies that can buy your book—but they all just list on Audible, and then take a percentage on top of what Audible is taking. Apple? Their books come in large part from Audible. Recorded Books? They are an awesome company, whom I love, but their biggest market is Audible. Macmillian, my publisher? They just turn around and put the books on Audible.

I had a huge problem finding anyone who, if I sold the Secret Projects to them, wouldn't just put them on Audible—and while I can't tell you details, all of their deals are around the same low rates that Audible is paying indie authors. Audible runs this town, and they set the rates. For everyone. Everywhere. (I had one seller who really wanted to work with me, who will remain unnamed, who is consistently only able to pay authors 10% on a sale. For a digital product. It's WILD.)

I found two companies only—in all of the deals I investigated—who are willing to take on Audible. Spotify and Speechify. My Spotify deal is, unfortunately, locked behind an NDA (as is common with these kinds of deals). All I can say is that they treated me well, and I'm happy.

Here's where the gold star goes to Speechify. Let me tell you, they came to me and said—full of enthusiasm for the project—they'd give me 100%. I almost took it, but then I asked the owner (who is a great guy) if this was a deal he could give other authors, or if it was a deal only Brandon Sanderson could get. He considered that, then said he'd be willing to do industry standard—70%—for any author who lists their books directly on Speechify a la carte. So I told him I wanted that deal, if he agreed to let me make the terms of our deal public.

I've made enough on this Kickstarter. I don't need to squeeze people for every penny—but what I do want to do is find a way to provide options for authors. I think that by agreeing to these two deals, I'm doing that. We have the open offer from Speechify, and we have Spotify trying very hard to break Audible's near-monopoly.

I hope this will rejuvenate the industry. Because I do like Audible. I worry that they'll stagnate, strangle their creators, and end up burning away because of it. Real competition is good for everyone, including the companies themselves. Lack of it leads to a slow corporate death.

So I'm not putting these books on Audible. Not for a year at least. Maybe longer. I need to be able to make a statement, and I realize this makes it inconvenient for many of you. I'm sorry. I really am. And I know it's going to cost me a ton of sales—because right now, people tend to just buy on the platform they're comfortable with. The Lost Metal preorders were 75% audio—almost all through Audible. I know many of my fans, probably hundreds of thousands of them, simply won't buy the books because it's super inconvenient to go somewhere else. Indeed, Audible locks you into that mentality by making you sign up for a subscription to get proper prices on audiobooks, which then makes you even more hesitant to shop around.

But please take the time to try these books somewhere else. I've priced them at $15—the current price of a monthly subscription to Audible at their most common price point. You can get these books with no subscription and no credit. (Though you do have to buy on Spotify/Speechify's websites—and not through their apps—because of monopolistic practices by certain providers. Something I'm not qualified to say much about currently. Besides, this rant is already too long.)

Each book you buy somewhere else helps break open this field. It will lead to lower prices, fewer subscription models, and better pay for authors. Plus, these partners I've gone to really deserve the support for being willing to try to change things."





I like the fact that he has grown to a size of audience where he can call out the shady practices of companies like Audible ripping off the little guys.

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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 10:27 PM

40% is truly sinister. That’s shocking. Imagine being a company paying worse rates to artists than Spotify and showing your face anywhere.
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#3 User is offline   Tsundoku 

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Posted 22 December 2022 - 11:12 PM

In GOP donor circles 40% is considered "extremely generous".
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#4 User is offline   champ 

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 09:10 AM

And that 40% is if you go exclusive with Audible, how the hell can they justify 25% if not exclusive.

I wonder if there is any other industry that pays 25% of the products value to the creator. You would think surely not as how would they survive on that.

Tehol said:

'Yet my heart breaks for a naked hen.'
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#5 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 11:39 AM

I imagine that the trade-off for starting creators is that due to the size and reach of the Audible platform, your sales might actually increase 5-10fold compared to selling only through bookshops or other venues. In which case even with a 25% cut you'd emerge better from it as a new author. The threshold for Audible members to just try something new from an unknown author is much lower than when you walk into a bookshop to buy a one-off (audio)book.

Not saying that I condone this behaviour, I completely agree that it is derisible. But presently Audible is the only platform out there that offers this service, so they have everyone over a barrel. If creators weren't seeing any benefits to it, they wouldn't continue to use the platform. They might as well just sell through a private website. Plus I suspect there are very few authors that can actually live off of their book sales. Many of them will do it as a 'hobby' on the side, so then they will be willing to take a financial hit in order to get their life's work out among a bigger audience.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 23 December 2022 - 11:40 AM

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#6 User is offline   Maark Abbott 

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 12:50 PM

How odd that Audible, a company owned by Amazon, would move to such a revenue split. It reminds me of what happened when the revenue split changed on Twitch, which is owned by Amaz- wait a fuckin'...
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#7 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 23 December 2022 - 09:00 PM

So much about this is interesting...

1. the majority of his readers now go earbook;
2. he's willing to take on Audible and by extension Amazon, more for the benefit of the industry than any real benefit to himself;
3. Spotify... look i fully expect that eventually spotify will treat authors as badly as it treats musicians, but it's a fascinating move by them, to ally with him.
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#8 User is offline   Cause 

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Posted 30 May 2023 - 07:41 PM

View PostAbyss, on 23 December 2022 - 09:00 PM, said:

So much about this is interesting...

1. the majority of his readers now go earbook;
2. he's willing to take on Audible and by extension Amazon, more for the benefit of the industry than any real benefit to himself;
3. Spotify... look i fully expect that eventually spotify will treat authors as badly as it treats musicians, but it's a fascinating move by them, to ally with him.


Are the majority of bookreaders in general than audio listeners? I find I get too distracted going audio only, im likely to start doing a chore and ignoring half a chapter.

Im surprised its not possible for more big authors to self publish and keep majority of their profts. DRM free e-books and audio books sold on their own websites or similar. DRM free makes piracy easy but their is no ebook or audio book that cant be pirated anyway. Bakker apparently struggles to find publishers but doesn't like the idea of self publishing. I suppose a big store front like aduible gets your booked seen by people who dont already know who you are.
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#9 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 31 May 2023 - 03:38 PM

View PostCause, on 30 May 2023 - 07:41 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 23 December 2022 - 09:00 PM, said:

So much about this is interesting...

1. the majority of his readers now go earbook;
2. he's willing to take on Audible and by extension Amazon, more for the benefit of the industry than any real benefit to himself;
3. Spotify... look i fully expect that eventually spotify will treat authors as badly as it treats musicians, but it's a fascinating move by them, to ally with him.


Are the majority of bookreaders in general than audio listeners? I find I get too distracted going audio only, im likely to start doing a chore and ignoring half a chapter.

Im surprised its not possible for more big authors to self publish and keep majority of their profts. DRM free e-books and audio books sold on their own websites or similar. DRM free makes piracy easy but their is no ebook or audio book that cant be pirated anyway. Bakker apparently struggles to find publishers but doesn't like the idea of self publishing. I suppose a big store front like aduible gets your booked seen by people who dont already know who you are.


The wider majority, probably not, but Sanderson states that a majority of HIS readers are, and i suspect, but have zero actual data to backup, that a significant chunk of fsf readers - not a majority but enough to matter when the money flows - are generally.

Audio doesn't work well for every author or every reader/listener, but there is a clear and big demand.

As to big authors, keep in mind self-publishing requires time, money, resources. Sanderson already had all of that in big goey globs when he decided to take on the industry, and as i understand it, he's mostly writing books. His people - yes, he has people, one of them is his wife, a bunch of others are his and her family - are doing all the other legwork. Think about it: he's essentially full time employing his entire extended family plus a bunch of other people - at least 30 if i've heard right. Your average author - even a 'big name' - doesn't have the time means or people to do that. Publishers do, that's why they exist. Sanderson also has an agent (or more likely multiple agents dealing w different geog markets and formats), a lawyer (or six), a (small army of) publicist(s). It takes money to make money on that scale and even a lot of 'big names' aren't making that kind of cash. The idea that they are is out of date.

Bakker lost a steady stream of sales as his books advanced. Love his work, but he was losing readers, not gaining them as some authors do as their series gets close to an end. I'd guess we only saw the book 4 end of the Second Apocalypse because it was marginally cheaper and better PR for the publisher to fulfill the contract than to pay him out. He doesn't want to self-pub, he has a whole other career to fill his time and it probably pays better.

Conversely, Peter (Threshold/14verse, Ex-Heroes series) Clines, an author i personally stan but who is not a huge name, has shifted to releasing his books as audible earbook only exclusives first, then following up with ebook and maybe dead tree at later dates. For him, Audible earbooks have become what big store hardbacks used to be - the sole way for the readers to get their hands (ears) on a new book they want when it first streets, unless they are prepared to wait a year+.
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#10 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 31 May 2023 - 04:02 PM

View PostAbyss, on 31 May 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

Bakker lost a steady stream of sales as his books advanced. Love his work, but he was losing readers, not gaining them as some authors do as their series gets close to an end. I'd guess we only saw the book 4 end of the Second Apocalypse because it was marginally cheaper and better PR for the publisher to fulfill the contract than to pay him out. He doesn't want to self-pub, he has a whole other career to fill his time and it probably pays better.




Quick Google search and Bing AI only turned up:

Quote

a frequent lecturer in the South Western Ontario university community


... but no regular teaching position. Never finished his philosophy PhD. Does he have some other career, aside from freelance philosopher?... Or does the South Western Ontario lecture circuit really pay that well?
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#11 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 31 May 2023 - 04:28 PM

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 31 May 2023 - 04:02 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 31 May 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

Bakker lost a steady stream of sales as his books advanced. Love his work, but he was losing readers, not gaining them as some authors do as their series gets close to an end. I'd guess we only saw the book 4 end of the Second Apocalypse because it was marginally cheaper and better PR for the publisher to fulfill the contract than to pay him out. He doesn't want to self-pub, he has a whole other career to fill his time and it probably pays better.




Quick Google search and Bing AI only turned up:

Quote

a frequent lecturer in the South Western Ontario university community


... but no regular teaching position. Never finished his philosophy PhD. Does he have some other career, aside from freelance philosopher?... Or does the South Western Ontario lecture circuit really pay that well?


No clue. I only know he's an academic in some brain or behavioral science related field.
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#12 User is offline   Azath Vitr (D'ivers 

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Posted 31 May 2023 - 04:54 PM

View PostAbyss, on 31 May 2023 - 04:28 PM, said:

View PostAzath Vitr (D, on 31 May 2023 - 04:02 PM, said:

View PostAbyss, on 31 May 2023 - 03:38 PM, said:

Bakker lost a steady stream of sales as his books advanced. Love his work, but he was losing readers, not gaining them as some authors do as their series gets close to an end. I'd guess we only saw the book 4 end of the Second Apocalypse because it was marginally cheaper and better PR for the publisher to fulfill the contract than to pay him out. He doesn't want to self-pub, he has a whole other career to fill his time and it probably pays better.



Quick Google search and Bing AI only turned up:

Quote

a frequent lecturer in the South Western Ontario university community


... but no regular teaching position. Never finished his philosophy PhD. Does he have some other career, aside from freelance philosopher?... Or does the South Western Ontario lecture circuit really pay that well?


No clue. I only know he's an academic in some brain or behavioral science related field.


His philosophical work is influenced by neuroscience, he is a member of the American Philosophical Association, and he did publish one paper in the interdisciplinary Journal of Consciousness Studies (which includes philosophy papers), but he is not a neuroscientist or a behavioral scientist. He was all but dissertation in a philosophy PhD program and has published a couple of philosophy papers.

The Nature article he co-authored is clearly (allegorical) science fiction:

(99+) Reinstalling Eden | Scott Bakker - Academia.edu

Quote

I'm a novelist, cultural critic, and blogger, who believes that academic culture requires wholesale reform as much as popular culture. Now that the black-box of the brain has been cracked open, the intellectual ecosystem that allowed the humanities to flourish in relative ignorance of the sciences is about to collapse. [...]

I am also a staunch critic of literary fiction and literary culture. I am far more interested in writing to the so-called 'consumer masses' than about them. My novels use various commercial genres of fiction as a means of reaching dissenting audiences. [...] I also periodically write for The Globe and Mail.

(99+) Scott Bakker - Academia.edu


Quote

R. Scott Bakker is a student of literature, history, philosophy, and ancient languages

The SF Site: A Conversation With R. Scott Bakker

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 31 May 2023 - 04:54 PM

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