[QuickTidal]

I put the last cover talk in the "books I bought" thread, but to avoid filing that thread with nonsense about incongruous covers (or new/forthcoming covers we like), I thought I'd make a thread so we have a place to talk about this stuff.

Today's Topic?

The SHEER incongruousness of Tad Williams LAST KING OF OSTEN ARD covers/spines.

Here is a photo of someones Williams collection.

 Tad.jpg (297.07K)
Number of downloads: 0

The incongruousness of the spine art design on the Last King books still blows my mind, three have Michael Whelan art (the artist who has done ALL the MS&T books; and now three of the LKOOA books), and one has the new artist Jim Tierney (Who is cheaper apparently than paying Whelan to do an oil painting? Fuck DAW and PRH for doing that)....

....but even between the Whelan covers the design elements are all over the place...WITCHWOOD has Tad's name written inexplicably like the Bobby Dollar books, while the title is a LITTLE closer to the MS&T books if not exactly right either...they seemingly got the memo with THE HEART OF WHAT WAS LOST as the name AND the title fonts and spacing is very much in line with MST&T, and then we get EoG which while looking similar has stretched out Tad's name to be fat instead of the condensed look on the MS&T, THOWWL, and even the Shadowmarch and Otherland books....and then BROTHERS OF THE WIND and the forthcoming INTO THE NARROWDARK are completely revamped with the new (non-Whelan) art and have a completely new name and title aesthetic (a style I like a LOT....but wish it hadn't come mid-series).

Who is the art designer at DAW, because they should be fired. This is an atrocious lack of foresight. Like even if I accept the new style and artist from BOTW onwards, the shitty attention to how the other Whelan covers in the series are laid out in font, size, style, kerning ect. should make everyone intensely angry. We spend $40/hardcover only for them to look like a ragtag mismatch group on the shelf.

For what it's worth I'd like to praise Jim Tierney's work on the BROTHERS OF THE WIND prequel cover and the INTO THE NARROWDARK covers (See below) as both the images and the title and layout are REALLY nice and I like them a lot. It just bothers me that half the series is going to look the way it does (all over the place), and the second half will be uniform in the new style, but that style is completely different.
Like these are really cool, and the font is cool and the vibe is cool...I just wish the whole set looked like this.

 BotW.jpg (66.35K)
Number of downloads: 0  ITN.jpeg (98.45K)
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[worry]

You seem a Tad upset!

[worry]

Those book covers are pretty cool, though, true. I agree it would be nice to have them all in that style instead of this mishmash lack of foresight.

[QuickTidal]

worry, on 08 July 2022 - 12:27 PM, said:

Those book covers are pretty cool, though, true. I agree it would be nice to have them all in that style instead of this mishmash lack of foresight.

It always bothers me when they switch cover artists or cover styles mid-series, but this one was beyond messed up from the get-go.

[pat5150]

Call me old school, but I always loved the original WoT covers by Darrell K. Sweet, warts and all. All those that came after are just crap.

Regarding art designers, I doubt they give a shit about what the spines of the novels will look like on our shelves. Changing covers over the years is just an attempt to generate interest and sell more books. Changing covers mid-series, as is the case with Williams, really sucks, though. Fuck PRH for forcing Daw to do this.

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 08 July 2022 - 01:41 PM, said:

Call me old school, but I always loved the original WoT covers by Darrell K. Sweet, warts and all. All those that came after are just crap.

Regarding art designers, I doubt they give a shit about what the spines of the novels will look like on our shelves. Changing covers over the years is just an attempt to generate interest and sell more books. Changing covers mid-series, as is the case with Williams, really sucks, though. Fuck PRH for forcing Daw to do this.

Agreed on your last point.

Also, I wish I was the art director because I would care what the spines looked like on shelves. Some series have some great attention to detail in that area, like PRIORY OF THE ORANGE TREE has that dragon that will match up if you have the spine sitting beside a copy with the cover facing...

But hell, even in the above pic, the Williams MS&T aren't matching well for position and font and image size...It drives me batty.

[Tiste Simeon]

worry, on 08 July 2022 - 12:25 PM, said:

You seem a Tad upset!

This is why you're my favourite.

[pat5150]

The thing about Tad Williams is that this latest series hasn't sold that much. I have a feeling this is why PRH felt that it was pointless to spend that much on cover art for the last two installments. If the first two volumes had been NYT bestsellers, I doubt that they would have said anything.

[pat5150]

Daw Books sold to Astra Publishing:

https://locusmag.com...oLOMh-DrW7tfh1w

[Tsundoku]

pat5150, on 13 July 2022 - 09:24 PM, said:

Daw Books sold to Astra Publishing:

https://locusmag.com...oLOMh-DrW7tfh1w

Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

[amphibian]

Given the publishing world patterns, it likely means they nearly went out of business and had to sell up to get an ok landing.

Also probably means Rothfuss gets a kick in the ass by new management to turn over book pieces.

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 12 July 2022 - 08:31 PM, said:

The thing about Tad Williams is that this latest series hasn't sold that much. I have a feeling this is why PRH felt that it was pointless to spend that much on cover art for the last two installments. If the first two volumes had been NYT bestsellers, I doubt that they would have said anything.

I would be interested to know where you came by such info Pat. It's not like sales are listed on the internet.

And for what it's worth the NYT Bestseller thing is a 'purchased' award, not something of real value.

pat5150, on 13 July 2022 - 09:24 PM, said:

Daw Books sold to Astra Publishing:

https://locusmag.com...oLOMh-DrW7tfh1w

Tsundoku, on 14 July 2022 - 07:20 AM, said:

pat5150, on 13 July 2022 - 09:24 PM, said:

Daw Books sold to Astra Publishing:

https://locusmag.com...oLOMh-DrW7tfh1w

Is this a good thing, or a bad thing?

So here's the thing, DAW had been making a BUNCH of really odd choices in the last few years, Michelle West's final arc of her Essyeilan series being shut out (she's patreon-ing it now), Julie Czerneda's most recent series was refused an audiobook version, and their refusal to give tad Whelan covers....tells me that they were in financial straits for a long time. The whole kerfuffle with Pat Rothfuss not delivering the DoS on time (or even at all) and Betsy Wolheim's very public lambasting of him for it...they have a stable of 50 authors. any of them bestsellers, but the writing was kind of on the wall that they could not keep their heads above water alone...

The company that bought them is Chinese (Beijing-based) money.

And take-overs like this will probably destroy the midlist authors...who will end up like Michelle West, out on their ear and "homeless" as it were without a publisher. Which sucks. But yeah for my money, this is BAD and will signify bad things for most of that existing stable of authors. Rothfuss and some other "buzz worthy" authors might skate by for a few years...but this is not remotely good in my view.

The only solace I take is that the aDAW authors I read who are still with them (Tad Williams, and Kristen Britain) are almost done their respective most recent series and could LIKELY get picked up somewhere else, or self-pub with their fandom helping them as West has done...but so many are going to just disappear without this backing. Publishing mergers are RARELY a good thing.

I feel like it's pertinent to add that with a Beijing-based over-company, the bending to the whims of the CCP we've seen in Hollywood films will splash over onto SFF books from this merger....I feel that's unavoidable.

I also don't think these problems are just about DAW...I feel like the other big houses have similar problems (especially around the Pandemic) but are quieter about it.

Self-publishing success like Will Wight and Michael J. Sullivan should be looking more appealing to authors than big publishers...

[pat5150]

Sales are not listed, but you can infer from a number of factors.

First of all, the two books generated no buzz and got no traction on the most popular message boards and sites such as Reddit, Goodreads, etc. There are very few Goodread ratings/reviews and Amazon reviews.

By Mark Lawrence's metric (the number of Goodreads ratings X7 gives you the number of sales 9 times out of 10), this new series has not done very well compared to its predecessor.

[worry]

Wow. We're not even "etc."

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 14 July 2022 - 02:43 PM, said:

Sales are not listed, but you can infer from a number of factors.

First of all, the two books generated no buzz and got no traction on the most popular message boards and sites such as Reddit, Goodreads, etc. There are very few Goodread ratings/reviews and Amazon reviews.

By Mark Lawrence's metric (the number of Goodreads ratings X7 gives you the number of sales 9 times out of 10), this new series has not done very well compared to its predecessor.

I mean, this would assume that everyone who buys and reads the book uses GR or reddit or does online reviews. Many many readers would have no interest in this, and GR has become a wasteland in the last 5 years or so with a smaller community.

Just seems like hinky math to me...I'm much more inclined to think the cover art decision was tied to DAW's recent overall financial woes over them not thinking Tad sold well enough if that's all you're going on.

Also, Mark Lawrence's metric is flawed if it uses GR's ratings count....because all you need to do is look at Sanderson....RoW has like 7k ratings VS WoK which has like 500k...using Mark's math, the latest Stormlight offering didn't sell very well...Press 'x' for doubt.

[pat5150]

Forgot to mention that the book needs to be out for at least a year for Lawrence's metric to work. He did that experiment with all the authors he knows and it was on the money 9 times out of 10.

Of course, it's not an exact science. But all indicators appear to hint that Tad's latest series hasn't been selling well, in North America and abroad.

And of course, the cover art decision also had to do with Daw Books' financial woes. It will be interesting to see if they have more freedom and flexibility with Astro Publishing.

[Tsundoku]

A Beijing company huh? Thanks for that, I'll file under "bad thing".

I can't see why a Beijing-based umbrella media/print company would take over DAW though. I just can't see what's in it for them, especially given what you guys have said about DAW's money woes.
Maybe someone at Astra has a passion for SFF books and saw DAW as fucking it up and went "we can do better, for the company, the fans and the authors"? Yeah, not likely I know, but I'm at a loss otherwise.

[Maark Abbott]

QuickTidal, on 14 July 2022 - 03:41 PM, said:

using Mark's math, the latest Stormlight offering didn't sell very well...

For a second I almost misread this as being my maths.

[QuickTidal]

pat5150, on 15 July 2022 - 02:06 AM, said:

Forgot to mention that the book needs to be out for at least a year for Lawrence's metric to work. He did that experiment with all the authors he knows and it was on the money 9 times out of 10.

Of course, it's not an exact science. But all indicators appear to hint that Tad's latest series hasn't been selling well, in North America and abroad.

And of course, the cover art decision also had to do with Daw Books' financial woes. It will be interesting to see if they have more freedom and flexibility with Astro Publishing.

RoW came out in November 2020....nearly 2 years ago.

I don't really care about his experiment, I don't buy it. Like at all. It's guesswork. I don't mean that to sound nasty, I just really don't see how that would work in real life to tell sales, so I don't buy it.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 15 July 2022 - 12:22 PM

[pat5150]

I was doubtful as well. But Mark knows lots of people, some of them bestselling authors and others barely what we'd consider midlist. If the metric worked for basically all of them, that's something.

It's not rocket sciene, but it does give you a general idea.

Add that to the other factors and everything hints at very modest sales for Tad's latest series.

Sad, but that the way loves goes. . . :/