[Falco]

Yeah I always thought the Andii were father-less, so to speak. There is absolutely no mention of a sire at any time any of Andii are talking or being discussed, and they only talk about Mother Dark. Makes sense to me...

[ASAGO]

I believe that shadowthrone and envy has children and that is where the tiste Andii came from

[Folken]

shadowthrone and envy? huh?

[Abyss]

In theory (and i'm utterly hypothesizing here so hold me to none of it...), First there was Mommy D, a bunch of presences she may or may not have created that became the Elder Gods, and the Eleint. (my favourite pet theory is that the gods all existed because early/proto humans conceptualized them, and thus none of them are actually older than humanity, but i have little proof for that). Tiam is present and may have sheboinged Krul, Draconus and Olar Ethel or just let them drink from her, OR those three and Tiam all drank from Eleint who were already present. (as far as we know, Mael, Kil, and ColdSis were not draconic)

Mommy Dark made Rake and his bros, and then the rest of the Andii, and then Father Light.

I assume the general Andii came before Father Light because if he had already been around, the whole 'Waaahhh, Mommy D has foresaken us' thing would have been less traumatic.

Father Light makes Osserc and then at some point the Liosan (maybe - their history is fuzzy).

Mommy D and Father Light get their freak on and make Scabby (ew!) and then the rest of the Edur.

Tiam, already on the scene even before Rake and co, gets her freak on with Ossi and Scabby that we know of. She probably also sehboinged Rake, Ruin and Darist, but as we haven't seen any draconean kids claiming any of them as parents, it's possible one of them just stabbed the skanky ho in the neck and then they all drank her blood, along with Rake's four sidekick draconean Andii.

(and this assuming Darist sheboinged Tiam, did the blood drinking thing and later renounced his draconic blood, as opposed to just abstaining (yeah, right) )

- Abyss, still thinks Tiam is like the skankiest ho ever.

[SiriusL]

I often wonder if we take some of these ancient entities too literally. Were Mother Dark and Father Light truly sentient beings that actually procreated to form the Tiste?

Part of me thinks like Delat posted earlier--the Elder Gods are abstractions of elemental forces, and the beings we see are actually avatars. They obviously have sentience, but they didn't have a form until K'rul put order in the world.

Then another part of me wonders if the forms they took were reflections of what humans (or Imass, or someone) believed. Their physical manifestations are brought about through worship, which is why K'rul disappeared for millenia until someone spilled blood in his temple. Blood allows them to exist as personal beings because it represents a sharing of the life force of the worshippers (OK, so this is getting a little far out).

The question, then, is how did K'rul manage to impose order on chaos? Did he do this before he had a corporeal being, or was he just a...force? Also, were the Tiste created before or after K'rul's imposition?

Lastly, why did Draconus see fit to fashion the sword? He said he'd been forging it since the "Time of All Darkness," so I assume he started doing it as soon as light was created. The sword contains the gate to Kurald Galain (from where?), because...?

[Dolorous Menhir]

SiriusL;193630 said:

I often wonder if we take some of these ancient entities too literally. Were Mother Dark and Father Light truly sentient beings that actually procreated to form the Tiste?

Part of me thinks like Delat posted earlier--the Elder Gods are abstractions of elemental forces, and the beings we see are actually avatars. They obviously have sentience, but they didn't have a form until K'rul put order in the world.

References have been made to Rake conversing with Mother Dark, and "she" is definitely older than K'rul's organisation of the warrens. Likely older than K'rul. So I'm not convinced on either of your points.

[SiriusL]

Dolorous Menhir;193682 said:

References have been made to Rake conversing with Mother Dark, and "she" is definitely older than K'rul's organisation of the warrens. Likely older than K'rul. So I'm not convinced on either of your points.

Your points are well taken, but I wouldn't say either of them precludes the abstraction theory. After all, I pointed out that Elder Gods, at least, are clearly sentient beings, and were so before Krul's organization. I'm suggesting that they didn't have a physical form until later (and maybe Mother Dark still doesn't).

I suppose Rake actually speaking with Mother Dark precludes her from being some generic metaphor for darkness. Can you provide that reference. Dolorous? I kind of remember it, but I'm not sure.

[Dolorous Menhir]

SiriusL;193881 said:

I suppose Rake actually speaking with Mother Dark precludes her from being some generic metaphor for darkness. Can you provide that reference. Dolorous? I kind of remember it, but I'm not sure.

When they had the falling out over the creation of the other Tiste races, Rake is supposed to have spoken to her about it. Don't have a page reference though, sorry.

[Danyah]

Dolorous Menhir;193682 said:

References have been made to Rake conversing with Mother Dark, and "she" is definitely older than K'rul's organisation of the warrens. Likely older than K'rul. So I'm not convinced on either of your points.

That's to say, Did K'rull create the warrens (seems unlike) or did he become a vessel for them, and thus organizing them?

It would seem strange that Kurald Galain is at the same time a warren, the home of the TA, a source of all other warrens (combined with SD) and the place where MD lives. That raises questions like did KG precede MD, or if not, who created KG? MD or K'rul?

[SiriusL]

Quote

Visions flooded her (Lady Envy's) mind, staggering her. Darkness. Then chaos, wild, unfocused power, a universe devoid of sense, of control, of meaning. Entities flung through the maelstrom. Lost, terrified by the birth of light. A sudden sharpening – pain as of wrists opened, the heat spilling forth – a savage imposition of order, the heart from which blood flowed in even, steady streams. Twin chambers to that heart – Kurald Galain, the Warren of Mother Dark – and Starvald Demelain, the Warren of...Dragons. And the blood – the power – now sweeping in currents through veins, through arteries, branching out through all existence, and the thought that came to her then stole all warmth from her flesh. Those veins, those arteries, they are the warrens...in striding through the warrens, we travel through your very flesh. That, when we draw upon the power of the warrens, we draw your very blood? Who knows?

K'rul: Anomander Rake, Draconus, Osric, a handful of others. And now you. Forgive me, Lady Envy, I have no wish to be a tyrant. My presence within the warrens has ever been passive – you are free to do as you choose, as is every other creature who swims my immortal blood.

I guess it doesn't actually say K'rul created the warrens, just that he's the vessel through which they flow.

I think KG is just the primordial warren. It was what existed, other than the dragons, before everything else. My impression is that Starvald Demelain isn't so much a warren as a source of power. Could be wrong, though.

[wintermute]

And I think chaos was also present as well, although presumably separated. By the way, as I recall, Dragnipur was forged to protect the warren of dark from Chaos, although they've since decided it was unnecessary.

[Aptorian]

Remind me again, we're did Hetan get this Draconean tree from? Who made it and what's up with there being three of them?

[Illuyankas]

SE. She has insider knowledge the rest of us can only dream of. Likely because she's blackmailing him by keeping his secret organ-smuggling business under wraps for only so long as the info keeps flowing.

[STOUT]

WOW imopressive, Thank that helps bring some things to light one question where did i miss where it hints that Shelatha Lore, is Envy and Spits mother? That one caught me by surprise

[STOUT]

ASAGO;146631 said:

I believe that shadowthrone and envy has children and that is where the tiste Andii came from

ummm interesting theory, I am sure the tiste andii where areound before shadowthrone was a sparkle in his daddy's eye

[Dolorous Menhir]

STOUT;205542 said:

WOW imopressive, Thank that helps bring some things to light one question where did i miss where it hints that Shelatha Lore, is Envy and Spits mother? That one caught me by surprise

I think that is revealed during one of Udinaas's visions in MT - the one where the other two Tiste sisters are carrying Sheltatha Lore unconscious to an Azath, and Osric drops by for a chat.

It's also in the Draconean Family Tree, which I think is agreed to be reliable on this point.

[Aptorian]

So it was SE that made it, that settles it, I don't trust a single thing about it now. SE intentionally misleads us all the time

Why hasn't Hetan hustled SE into giving us the other trees? I wonder if there is a draconean tree made by Gothos, now that would be insightfull.

Maybe this tree will actually show up in Toll the Hounds since we're returning to Darujistan and will most likely meet Baruk there.

[Lisheo]

All three trees will appear in TtH, apparantly, so its just a matter of patience.

[Aptorian]

Lisheo;206221 said:

All three trees will appear in TtH, apparantly, so its just a matter of patience.

Was this revealed in a thread on the forum... One of Kallors evil hints?

[Aptorian]

Just found this in one of the Q&As

Quote

Is Tiam male or female. Female, sometimes a mother, sometimes a lover, sometimes a daughter, and sometimes all three, but always female. The next book will have in the glossary Baruk's interpretation of the Draconic family tree ... all three versions.

Has anyone come across a book that had the tree in it?