[Aptorian]

Traveller, on 01 July 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

Hell yeah. In GotM, it's the CG that effortlessly blindside Korlat when she's hunting Crokus, and leave her weapons by her side. Also Iron Bars kills Rhulad without even breaking stride, and doesn't even notice anything special about him.

Or did you mean the regulars, not just the Avowed? Iron Bars also kills B'Nagga and takes on the Seragahl.

It's the Avowed I mean.

I never thought of what we see them do in GotM or Midnight Tides as anything but a demonstration of skill or ordinary mortal magery, not any particular supernatural toughness or ascendant traits. But then again, Iron Bars being as tough as he's shown to be in this book, explains why he survived the fight with the Seregahl at the end of MT.

[Cyphon]

Storo, Silk and Rell et al fighting to regain heng was good. Felt like comfortable old slippers of a read.

[Traveller]

Finished.

It was better than I remember, to be fair.
There was a bit too much going on towards the end though, I feel. The side story with Ho, Yath and Blues etc could have been omitted entirely - it added some nice info about the mined out otataral, but the whole shade statue element, the rescue of mages... it just didnt do anything. I mean, all they did when they arrived at the battle was bring a crazy mage to the party that everyone else had to bring down.

Also, the unveiling if Kurald Galain on the battlefield.. why? It didn't actually do anything, apart from make a few other mages gawp at it a bit.

So yes, it was a bit messy. But in amongst it all was Mallicks plan, much clearer on the reread I thought. I enjoyed Rillish, Nait and Hurl; Kyle was ok but nothing more than an observer really.

The veterans seemed kind of wasted in their initial efforts and plan - they did get some good moments and closure at the end though. Laseen - so short a scene for something so important, so quickly dealt with. I kind of liked it though? She really got blindsided. Possum, like Pearl, ultimately useless, as his own ego got in the way.

Quite a lot there at the end to process. I definitely enjoyed it this time. But it could have done with a tighter edit and lost a few story arcs.

[D'rek]

Traveller, on 04 July 2020 - 06:52 PM, said:

Finished.

It was better than I remember, to be fair.
There was a bit too much going on towards the end though, I feel. The side story with Ho, Yath and Blues etc could have been omitted entirely - it added some nice info about the mined out otataral, but the whole shade statue element, the rescue of mages... it just didnt do anything. I mean, all they did when they arrived at the battle was bring a crazy mage to the party that everyone else had to bring down.

Also, the unveiling if Kurald Galain on the battlefield.. why? It didn't actually do anything, apart from make a few other mages gawp at it a bit.

So yes, it was a bit messy. But in amongst it all was Mallicks plan, much clearer on the reread I thought. I enjoyed Rillish, Nait and Hurl; Kyle was ok but nothing more than an observer really.

The veterans seemed kind of wasted in their initial efforts and plan - they did get some good moments and closure at the end though. Laseen - so short a scene for something so important, so quickly dealt with. I kind of liked it though? She really got blindsided. Possum, like Pearl, ultimately useless, as his own ego got in the way.

Quite a lot there at the end to process. I definitely enjoyed it this time. But it could have done with a tighter edit and lost a few story arcs.

The Wickans, too. There's a lot of story-threads that all come together into the big battle that don't seem to have much reason to actually go there. And since there's less gods involved in this one it's hard to just handwave it away as Convergence, which would be lazy anyway.

I like the idea of a ship full of mages suddenly falling out of the sky mid-battle and changing things. I like the Wickans arriving via gate at full charge in a critical moment. Etc. But yeah, wish the storylines leading up to these had more involvement with the main storyline and they all good reasons to be showing up there.

[Traveller]

Yes, the Wickans objective is really messed up - they try to prove their allegiance to the Empress, who instigated the pogrom, by saving the malazans in battle - but she then falls, to be replaced by the man who loathes them. I suppose they wanted to be seen by the rest of the armies as well as just the Empress; but seeing as how the entire Chain of Dogs was rewritten to make them the bad guys, I wonder what they think will be different this time?

It's all just a bit too messy.

First chapter of Reapers Gale - so good to be back to Letheras.

[Cyphon]

The Crimson Guard going into Unta seems bonkers. Seemingly so Cowl and Skinner can then go off adventuring.

Laseen taking out an injured avowed is pretty cool though.

As Kyle and co join up with Traveller I think Erecko portends the doom quite well, even if is quite heavily foreshadowing what's to come.

[Stalker]

Just finished. Had a weekend away without internet connection and powered through this. This was my first reread and while I enjoyed it the first time, RotCG was better than I rememberEd. Probably because my first read was as a stand-alone novel, so some characters introduced in NoK (or later Li Heng info from the Path to Ascendancy series) didn’t mean as much at the time.

Agree with Traveller’s take. Cutting a few storylines out to tighten up the novel would have been worthwhile.

Did enjoy Temper and Ferrule linking up with Dassem to fight Skinner. Reunion of the old guard, with some additions, to hunt down Ryllandaras was another good sequence.

[Cyphon]

When Nether and Rillish go through the forest in Shadow she says it's the shadow realms equivalent to an Azath. She muses on what it needs to keep prisoner.

a ) Have we found out yet what is held in the forest?

b ) why is Shadow the Warren's prison, is there a forum theory?

This post has been edited by Cyphon: 06 July 2020 - 09:39 PM

[D'rek]

Cyphon, on 06 July 2020 - 09:18 PM, said:

When Nether and Rillish go through the forest in Shadow she says it's the shadow realms equivalent to an Azath. She muses on what it needs to keep prisoner.

a ) Have we found out yet what is held in the forest?

b ) why is Shadow the Warren's prison, is there a forum theory?

I guess it fits with Edgewalker, the captured dragons, and other such things we've seen in Shadow in other books... but no idea why.

[Macros]

I thought it was deragoth at first glance (just past this sequence last night)

[Aptorian]

I'm still not much further in the book than 170 pages but I'm fascinated by the Crimson Guard.

I kind of wish that Esslemont would stop retconning the Empire's history and instead shift to telling the story of Kazz and the Avowed in the century or so between the Diaspora and the Guard's return. There's so many adventures to explore.

[Traveller]

Aptorian, on 07 July 2020 - 10:10 AM, said:

I'm still not much further in the book than 170 pages but I'm fascinated by the Crimson Guard.

I kind of wish that Esslemont would stop retconning the Empire's history and instead shift to telling the story of Kazz and the Avowed in the century or so between the Diaspora and the Guard's return. There's so many adventures to explore.

Exactly, and then he finally shows up, puts things in order, and then they all leave again... leaving us none the wiser.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 07 July 2020 - 11:59 AM

[D'rek]

Ok, my general thoughts on RotCG. It feels to me like this is written as the final book, or perhaps just a later sequel, to a hypothetical series of books about the early Empire that Esslemont hadn't actually written yet, and which the Kellanved's Reach trilogy didn't really end up being the same as, either. There's a lot of moments that seem like they are supposed to be the final moments of this big long woven through prior books, but because those prior books don't actually exist it's more like "wait, who is this person again?". Like everybody hyping up Ullen and Dessembrae weeping over him, or Topper and Cowl supposedly having had such a lifelong feud that Topper gave up everything and went cray-cray just for one last shot at him, etc. Maybe he really should have written all his early Empire books before writing this one and the pay-offs would have connected better.

I do still really like the big army battles in this book, though, really has a good feel of a huge expanse where all sorts of different stuff is going on in multitudes: marines taking crossbow potshots and tossing sharpers from the long grass, assassins jumping out of warrens to slash and retreat, mages blasting forces in open areas, etc. Erikson does the small number of squad stories well, but his big pitched battles never quite capture that same feel of a classic army-vs-army battle incorporating all the tools they have - his big battles tend to end with one giant magic death wave or have one side be all crazy drone-people or whatnot instead.

[Traveller]

D, on 07 July 2020 - 12:57 PM, said:

I do still really like the big army battles in this book, though, really has a good feel of a huge expanse where all sorts of different stuff is going on in multitudes: marines taking crossbow potshots and tossing sharpers from the long grass, assassins jumping out of warrens to slash and retreat, mages blasting forces in open areas, etc. Erikson does the small number of squad stories well, but his big pitched battles never quite capture that same feel of a classic army-vs-army battle incorporating all the tools they have - his big battles tend to end with one giant magic death wave or have one side be all crazy drone-people or whatnot instead.

Yeah I did like this huge field battle; but at the same time, all the elements that were supposedly responsible for the success of the Malaz Empire all met in a huge confusion.

It would have been cool at some point to see the Malazan armies operating against an opposing, different army with all their elements (mages, sappers, heavies etc) at their peak and working as an organised unit; like the way the Romans are portrayed against the tribes at the beginning of Gladiator. I feel all these separate aspects of the army have been described many times, but rarely seen all working successfully as a unit. The Bridgeburners at Pale and Coral; the Bonehunters in Y'Ghatan - all have huge military fuckups and losses. The elements like the sappers in the CoDs, the Marines in the invasion of Lether, all have their own skill set and stand out when not backed up by the rest of the army (even Kalam and the Claw) but we only really see them in isolation. A Malazan army at full strength, with all of those elements functioning as they should would have been awesome to see.

Or maybe that's the point? They are all taught to 'think for themselves.' So previous successes may have been due to those elements working to their own plan in the field; something that can't be repeated every time.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 07 July 2020 - 01:45 PM

[Aptorian]

P. 200ish. Topper/Ragman fights some woman in the Imperial Warren.

Quote

The woman stepped away, eased into a ready stance. ‘Who are you?’ ‘A lost fragment of bureaucratic oversight.’ More questions obviously occurred to the woman but she clamped down on them. ‘Well, as intriguing as all this is . . .’ ‘You must report it.’ She nodded. He bowed his agreement, but instead of straightening he rolled forward, sweeping. The woman cartwheeled aside. They stood, facing one another, he astonished, she calculating in her narrowed glance. He did not bother to hide his delight. ‘Wonderfully done! It has been a long time since I’ve seen his style.’ The woman – girl, he corrected himself – gave an elegant bow. ‘You recognize it! My father taught me. And you not ought to have revealed your familiarity . . .’ ‘It will not matter . . . shortly.’ She bowed again. ‘Apologies. Must be off.’ Shadows threaded up from the dirt to spin about her like a whirlwind. His surprise lasted only an instant; he thrust out both arms and lances of darkness struck the girl throwing her backwards. She lay gasping for air, her ribs shattered, lungs punctured. He crossed to stand over her. Still conscious she stared up, her gaze accusing. ‘Kurald Galain!’ she gasped. He knelt on his haunches next to her. ‘I am sorry.’ ‘You! But we thought you . . . you were no . . .’ ‘Yes. I know. I am so very sorry. More sorry because I would not have sent someone like you. For, as you see, I’ve come myself.’ He rested a hand on her shoulder. Unconscious. Still, her heart beat. There was yet a chance . . . He gestured and a pool of utter darkness emerged from beneath the girl like liquid night. She sank into it, disappearing as if into a well of ink. A small enough gesture . . . but he felt that he owed her at least that. A pity that it is always the best who are sent. He should’ve anticipated that.

Return Of The Crimson Guard (Malazan Empire) (p. 202). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

i remember there being a lot of speculation about this woman. At least I think it was during this scene. People thought it was Apsalar.

I don't see it- For one her words don't fit and more importantly I don't Apsalar would be this sloppy.

[Macros]

I thought it was toppers daughter for some reason. And this sequence was to highlight how completely disconnected he had become

[Cyphon]

Finished, just in time for Peace Talks too.

Could of done without the mages in the mines storyline. The battle finishes and the this comes along which doesnt seem to do much apart from remove Tay and Cowl from the world. My memory is hazy but I dont recall much of the so what.

This is better on the reread than I remember. It does feel a bit like HoC where it's a more straightforward read with less loose ends. Which might be reflected in the volumes of comments in this thread.

The only one I had a question about was if Skinner is king of the House of cripples, he basically usurped Kallor right? So what has happened to Kallor?

[Aptorian]

I don't recall if there was a falling out between the CG and Kallor but We see Kallor in TTH. He seems to be going through some kind of identity crisis in that book.

[D'rek]

I think there is/was a comment by the Crippled God at some point about Kallor going off and doing his own things and not really doing what the CG wanted him to do. On the flipside, the CG himself should have been the King, at least until he "set the House loose" in HoC. Kallor as King kinda sorta never happened, I think, and is arguably either a timeline/change of plans situation, or just a "he wanted it but it didn't happen" situation. I guess that's why he's Reaver instead.

[Aptorian]

Rhulad is seen as the King in Fiddler's reading Bonehunters I think.