[Sheltatha Lore]

Thyrllan, on 14 May 2020 - 09:27 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 13 May 2020 - 12:16 AM, said:

If I'm wrong, then I'm wrong, but I honestly don't think so. Just put yourself in the shoes of a scum playing. It's possible he would act the way Tennes has - the problem with scum posting is that you either get this feeling they don't really care about who gets the vote, unless you accidentally hit a scum friend of theirs - either way it's hard to tell which is which, especially this early in the game. I'm just watching the way people post and trying to read between the lines, just as you.
There's just something about how Tennes writes his post that comes off scummy to me. As scum it's easy to get caught up in the 'playing it normal', especially if you're excited to play but still don't want to stand out. You can fall in a trap of doing just that, because what you're posting isn't authentic. Tennes posts doesn't seem authentic to me.
If you have a better idea who could be scum this early in the game, I'm all ears.

The thing that makes me raise my eyebrows is your level of certainty. Which is odd to me.
you cannot be so sure at this point, so your accusations seem a bit off.

your temerity of his convictions is noteworthy.

My thinking is either you are throwing accusations purposely to deflect something Tennes might have gotten right (be it accidentally or luckily).
Or.. you are maybe a bit of an over eager village idiot.

It's worth looking at.

Maybe it's because I think he pointed at me a few times (or did he? I did just skim) but I've gotten a similar feel from Tennes. Just something fishy (fishing?) about him.

Thyrllans first game relevant post after returning and seeing the pressure is on him day 2.
Make of it what you will.

Also he quoted my broken post that actually has text from Amarahta at the top and Myself responding at the bottom.. discussing Tennes. (not sure if relevant)

[Barghast]

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 02:34 PM, said:

Okaros, on 22 May 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

This summary by Tennes on day 1 certainly leans me towards voting for them, but there's still a ton of the thread left for me to go through.

Tennes, on 14 May 2020 - 08:59 PM, said:

tl;dr of my re-read and summary of my thoughts so far:

Prazec and Ruse still stand out as the scummiest to me. I'm happy with my vote and I don't believe one bit that Prazec randomly just switched from writing Okral to Okaros. If Prazec flips scum, Okaros is their partner.

Gait and Barghast are pushing the idea that a Thyr train was derailed on D1 but didn't investigate that derailment at all. Rikkter, who started the Okral train, didn't even get a mention from them so far.

Kalse's case on Venesara sounds good. Ven would be my third choice at the moment after Prazec and Ruse. Kalse has been playing a game so clean my gut almost tells me it's too clean.

Thyr is a coaster but the D1 'train' was literally two semi-joking votes, so the whole derailment things sounds blown out of proportion.

This is copy pasta from my "notes' on that post:



Here Tennes summarises.
He correctly points out that the people who started the Thyrllan derail discussion have seemed to backed off suddenly after voted on Thyr appeared.
(Not that Bargy has actually returned, Gait had and actively did a 180 after two quick voted on Thyr)
Not sure what to make of it.

But then Tennes praises Kalse and his play again…would scum do that so brazenly to a partner?
His very next line he then dismisses the other scum Thyr.

That would be some real shitty obvious play by scum if you ask me. (Or galaxy brain play, knowing I would think this was too good to be true if when revueing later)4

I try not to get hung up on the distancing as an indication of innocence too much, if there's 4 killers they will kinda have needed to put in a signalling more extreme than usual if they wanted to avoid being boxed in together

Also 4 killers are a lot, I've been thinking there's some chance they might not even be in one convo, I think it's unlikely but it would definitely complicate things

[Sheltatha Lore]

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 02:40 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Thing is we just didn't have the number of online players to get a lynch, there was only 6 of us, which means if we wanted to lynch one of those, we needed 2 additional votes, and there were only a few votes placed by players who were not online

Also the eod was in the morning for NA players, as opposed to I think all the previous eods being later

Also, every living player who can be considered active was among the 6 players, the rest depends on low posters and in their case it's hard to tell the reason for their absence because they're... absent all the time

And the two players who almost always showed up before eod to help lynching the likeliest lynch were Ruse and Prazec

So I'm not saying there wasn't resistance, but there are quite a few circumstances which make it hard to tell, particularly half the pople alive being complete lowposters

I fully get it yea.., I was there, I was well aware of the lack of bodies available at the time. And how it was a panic because of it.

Cant help thinking that it doesnt mean that the people that came on later to help simply weren't biding their time either.
Also the the case on Tennes and Gait was very early on day 3 and it stagnated for two days till the mad rush.

Having said that, Im happy with my vote...I want to see what people think of the day yesterday. As most of it was about Gait vs Tennes.

I'm definitely not talking you out of it

The Gait vs Tennes thing goes back to D2, where Gait repeatedly throws suspicion at Thyr saying it looks like the D1 train on him looks like it was derailed, while Tennes calls him out for never looking at the people who derailed and Gait responds that he's not really pushing the derailment narrative (which was untrue, but I also kinda get that Gait was saying it didn't necessarily have to be a full on derailment and I was in a similar bag as he was)

Or we can go even further back to when Kalse joke voted Gait for being signalled by Okral, Gait goes on to correct them he's not singalling, which completely missed the point, then Gait has to explain himself in 3 posts and that's when Tennes got his hard on first

Thing to take into consideration here, Gait already had scrambling tendencies when voted by Kalse for example, which if they were partners would have been uncalled for

I've said before Gait has a laid back approach, and he apparently does get nervous whenever his safe zone is threatened, but I'm not convinced it's that scummy, I'd expect if he was scum he'd be more guarded about losing his cool like that every time.

That aside Tennes is spot on in most of the inconsistencies he calls out about Gait, but that doesn't make him right, problem I have with him is all the arguments regarding their scumminess boil down to wifom, which is a good thing for scum as then there aren't many real arguments to be said against you. So in this light I can easily imagine Tennes to have played either a scum or town game so far, and he remains on the reasonable side of things, but then his initial D3 case against Gait I view as weak, and the rest is all about Gait scrambling (which makes me view Gait in a similar light in which I saw Rikkter). None of the cases on Tennes convince me either, but that's again because all the argumetns I deem most indicative are wifom.

Gait also reads as if a little loose with his wordings, and as someone who relies on gut more than he lets show (don't we all) and kinda tries to make his arguments fit his gut vision knowing the arguments are not perfect, hence lacking confidence in the arguments themselves. Which also could be put in a way to make it look much scummier.

I honestly couldn't have summed it up better myself.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 02:45 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 02:34 PM, said:

Okaros, on 22 May 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

This summary by Tennes on day 1 certainly leans me towards voting for them, but there's still a ton of the thread left for me to go through.

Tennes, on 14 May 2020 - 08:59 PM, said:

tl;dr of my re-read and summary of my thoughts so far:

Prazec and Ruse still stand out as the scummiest to me. I'm happy with my vote and I don't believe one bit that Prazec randomly just switched from writing Okral to Okaros. If Prazec flips scum, Okaros is their partner.

Gait and Barghast are pushing the idea that a Thyr train was derailed on D1 but didn't investigate that derailment at all. Rikkter, who started the Okral train, didn't even get a mention from them so far.

Kalse's case on Venesara sounds good. Ven would be my third choice at the moment after Prazec and Ruse. Kalse has been playing a game so clean my gut almost tells me it's too clean.

Thyr is a coaster but the D1 'train' was literally two semi-joking votes, so the whole derailment things sounds blown out of proportion.

This is copy pasta from my "notes' on that post:



Here Tennes summarises.
He correctly points out that the people who started the Thyrllan derail discussion have seemed to backed off suddenly after voted on Thyr appeared.
(Not that Bargy has actually returned, Gait had and actively did a 180 after two quick voted on Thyr)
Not sure what to make of it.

But then Tennes praises Kalse and his play again…would scum do that so brazenly to a partner?
His very next line he then dismisses the other scum Thyr.

That would be some real shitty obvious play by scum if you ask me. (Or galaxy brain play, knowing I would think this was too good to be true if when revueing later)4

I try not to get hung up on the distancing as an indication of innocence too much, if there's 4 killers they will kinda have needed to put in a signalling more extreme than usual if they wanted to avoid being boxed in together

Also 4 killers are a lot, I've been thinking there's some chance they might not even be in one convo, I think it's unlikely but it would definitely complicate things

as I said those where just "thoughts" from my notes in a worrd editor file keep.
As it was relevant to Okaros's post I felt I would post it.

[Tennes]

Quick drop in, will be around to talk in the evening.

@Barghast: I'm not sure I follow your logic.

You say Prazec and Ruse CFs make me look scummier. So... I pushed a case on someone, someone else got lynched and flipped Town. VERDICT: Tennes scummy.
Now you admit Gait has been scrambling and slipping a lot. VERDICT: ah Gait is just loose with their words and plays with gut.

One last thing I'm gonna bring up from Gait from yesterday. They said that 'you guys thought Rikkter's case was OMGUS'. So I asked Gait which guys said that. Their response:

Gait, on 21 May 2020 - 11:19 AM, said:

Rikkter, on 18 May 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Ok you all, let's get one thing straight: I presented a comprehensive case (I know, long-ass, tl;dr, whiny babies) on Tennes that boiled down to his interactions with Thyr, which were continually designed to remove pressure from his scummate. The crux of Tennes' rebuttal was "that's stupid, I voted for Thyr, durr" with a mic drop that probably no one heard. In the meantime, there has been some massive OMGUS voting for me going on, with SL diving right into the fray as usual to stir up shit and get the pressure off the masters asses.

So whatever, vote me out you twats. You definitely have time to revisit your mistakes when you get my CF. I don't personally give a fuck.

But if you are town and want to be an honest ass player, go read it all for yourself and then come to your own conclusions. Seemed obvious to me, but maybe I am just that much smarter than the rest of you pig-headed eejits.

And finally, I am not going to comment on Kalse because someone put some warm fuzzy votes on me first and then distracted from my case. Take care of Tennes (or me, free country and all), and then work on it. Don't get lost in the verbal vomit of scum multi-casing.

Peace.

I may have misunderstood but is that not what Rikkter meant?

So according to Gait, the guys who thought Rikkter's case was OMGUS were... uh, Rikkter himself. And no one else.

I promise this is my last time bringing up Gait's false statements because:
1. at this rate it will soon be a full time job
2. if y'all don't find it scummy then you don't and no point in me beating a dead horse

BUT. Answer me this:
Does a town player play by making a false statement after false statement after false statement and then being like sure sure?
Wouldn't a town player think it's in town's best interest to correct the egregious factual errors they posted on thread, rather than brush them off and double down on the conclusion they lead to?

That's a wrap from me on the Gait case though I'm obviously happy to vote them out if there's any interest in that.


EDIT
Formatting

This post has been edited by Tennes: 22 May 2020 - 03:12 PM

[Okaros]

It does appear to be a case of: do you believe the reasonable, clear, and cool-headed person who is possibly smooth, clean-playing scum; or the jittery, scrambling, prone to mistakes one, who is possibly a scum who's bad under pressure? I wouldn't be surprised if they were both scum

[Barghast]

Tennes, on 22 May 2020 - 03:11 PM, said:

BUT. Answer me this:
Does a town player play by making a false statement after false statement after false statement and then being like sure sure?
Wouldn't a town player think it's in town's best interest to correct the egregious factual errors they posted on thread, rather than brush them off and double down on the conclusion they lead to?

He did express regret after his last page worth of factual errors, and also basically asked you to... stop pressuring him so he can stop posting false statements

Majority of those errors were in response to your case on him, in which case, assuming that he is, the ultimate conclusion is that he's innocent, and whatever your arguments to the contrary he doesn't need to dispute them in order to get to his conclusion, he already knows that one, the disputing is for the rest of the thread, which is why I would expect scum Gait to be more careful with it

If he's town he's obviously not helping anyone with those, but he wouldn't be the only town player in this game who's not exactly playing a 100% useful pro-town game is he? Would have thought it was for example in Ruse's and Prazec's interest at least not to look so scummy

[Kilava]

i'm around again. maybe try to reread the last day or two again before the long weekend

[Kilava]

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 02:40 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Thing is we just didn't have the number of online players to get a lynch, there was only 6 of us, which means if we wanted to lynch one of those, we needed 2 additional votes, and there were only a few votes placed by players who were not online

Also the eod was in the morning for NA players, as opposed to I think all the previous eods being later

Also, every living player who can be considered active was among the 6 players, the rest depends on low posters and in their case it's hard to tell the reason for their absence because they're... absent all the time

And the two players who almost always showed up before eod to help lynching the likeliest lynch were Ruse and Prazec

So I'm not saying there wasn't resistance, but there are quite a few circumstances which make it hard to tell, particularly half the pople alive being complete lowposters

I fully get it yea.., I was there, I was well aware of the lack of bodies available at the time. And how it was a panic because of it.

Cant help thinking that it doesnt mean that the people that came on later to help simply weren't biding their time either.
Also the the case on Tennes and Gait was very early on day 3 and it stagnated for two days till the mad rush.

Having said that, Im happy with my vote...I want to see what people think of the day yesterday. As most of it was about Gait vs Tennes.

I'm definitely not talking you out of it

The Gait vs Tennes thing goes back to D2, where Gait repeatedly throws suspicion at Thyr saying it looks like the D1 train on him looks like it was derailed, while Tennes calls him out for never looking at the people who derailed and Gait responds that he's not really pushing the derailment narrative (which was untrue, but I also kinda get that Gait was saying it didn't necessarily have to be a full on derailment and I was in a similar bag as he was)

Or we can go even further back to when Kalse joke voted Gait for being signalled by Okral, Gait goes on to correct them he's not singalling, which completely missed the point, then Gait has to explain himself in 3 posts and that's when Tennes got his hard on first

Thing to take into consideration here, Gait already had scrambling tendencies when voted by Kalse for example, which if they were partners would have been uncalled for

I've said before Gait has a laid back approach, and he apparently does get nervous whenever his safe zone is threatened, but I'm not convinced it's that scummy, I'd expect if he was scum he'd be more guarded about losing his cool like that every time.

That aside Tennes is spot on in most of the inconsistencies he calls out about Gait, but that doesn't make him right, problem I have with him is all the arguments regarding their scumminess boil down to wifom, which is a good thing for scum as then there aren't many real arguments to be said against you. So in this light I can easily imagine Tennes to have played either a scum or town game so far, and he remains on the reasonable side of things, but then his initial D3 case against Gait I view as weak, and the rest is all about Gait scrambling (which makes me view Gait in a similar light in which I saw Rikkter). None of the cases on Tennes convince me either, but that's again because all the argumetns I deem most indicative are wifom.

Gait also reads as if a little loose with his wordings, and as someone who relies on gut more than he lets show (don't we all) and kinda tries to make his arguments fit his gut vision knowing the arguments are not perfect, hence lacking confidence in the arguments themselves. Which also could be put in a way to make it look much scummier.

I honestly couldn't have summed it up better myself.

this is almost too on the nose. in other comments here you're assuming that gait is scum and that you have held that position for al ong time, justifyably so, but then here when discussing gait vs. tennes you....forgot to discuss tennes? oh, except the cases on him don't convince you...what is the point of these long posts about gait vs. tennes if you don't even think the tennes case is worth looking at?

something is off, this suspicious perfect agreement bullshit is suspicious

[Okaros]

I've just been rereading over Rikkter's case on Tennes trying to save Thyrllan (from 17 May), I won't post it again as it is pretty long, but it is worth having a look at. As well as trying to show how Tennes, much like Kalse, tried to deflect away from Thyrllan, it does make the point (which I think I may also have mentioned some time back), that Tennes' eventual vote on Thyr was a little surprising considering how many other options they had put on the table. To Rikkter it read like capitulation to the inevitable (although I would suggest that the actual no-going-back point on Thyr's train was Kilava's vote, which followed Tennes').

[Barghast]

Okaros, on 22 May 2020 - 03:44 PM, said:

I've just been rereading over Rikkter's case on Tennes trying to save Thyrllan (from 17 May), I won't post it again as it is pretty long, but it is worth having a look at. As well as trying to show how Tennes, much like Kalse, tried to deflect away from Thyrllan, it does make the point (which I think I may also have mentioned some time back), that Tennes' eventual vote on Thyr was a little surprising considering how many other options they had put on the table. To Rikkter it read like capitulation to the inevitable (although I would suggest that the actual no-going-back point on Thyr's train was Kilava's vote, which followed Tennes').

That vote remains the scummier thing about Tennes for me, because if he was scum I believe this is totally the move he'd make, and indeed it's coming a little out of nowhere, and the "decision time" holds a whole new dimension if you think about him as scum, but it boils down to wifom as it could have been a town play just as easily (would 2 of scum openly deflect from Thyr? Plus Tennes' questioning of the derailment narrative was fully justified imo)

[Barghast]

Tennes, on 22 May 2020 - 03:11 PM, said:

You say Prazec and Ruse CFs make me look scummier. So... I pushed a case on someone, someone else got lynched and flipped Town. VERDICT: Tennes scummy.
Now you admit Gait has been scrambling and slipping a lot. VERDICT: ah Gait is just loose with their words and plays with gut.

I haven't made my verdicts based solely upon those things tho have I? I'm still leaning towards both of you being town. Because I point out something that is potentially scummy about either of you, or anyone for the matter, doesn't mean I find you uh scummy enough to think you're likely or likeliest to be scum. Everyone's scummy in something (except me obviouslyyy as we all can see).

[Sheltatha Lore]

Kilava, on 22 May 2020 - 03:40 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 02:47 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 02:40 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 22 May 2020 - 01:58 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 01:35 PM, said:

Thing is we just didn't have the number of online players to get a lynch, there was only 6 of us, which means if we wanted to lynch one of those, we needed 2 additional votes, and there were only a few votes placed by players who were not online

Also the eod was in the morning for NA players, as opposed to I think all the previous eods being later

Also, every living player who can be considered active was among the 6 players, the rest depends on low posters and in their case it's hard to tell the reason for their absence because they're... absent all the time

And the two players who almost always showed up before eod to help lynching the likeliest lynch were Ruse and Prazec

So I'm not saying there wasn't resistance, but there are quite a few circumstances which make it hard to tell, particularly half the pople alive being complete lowposters

I fully get it yea.., I was there, I was well aware of the lack of bodies available at the time. And how it was a panic because of it.

Cant help thinking that it doesnt mean that the people that came on later to help simply weren't biding their time either.
Also the the case on Tennes and Gait was very early on day 3 and it stagnated for two days till the mad rush.

Having said that, Im happy with my vote...I want to see what people think of the day yesterday. As most of it was about Gait vs Tennes.

I'm definitely not talking you out of it

The Gait vs Tennes thing goes back to D2, where Gait repeatedly throws suspicion at Thyr saying it looks like the D1 train on him looks like it was derailed, while Tennes calls him out for never looking at the people who derailed and Gait responds that he's not really pushing the derailment narrative (which was untrue, but I also kinda get that Gait was saying it didn't necessarily have to be a full on derailment and I was in a similar bag as he was)

Or we can go even further back to when Kalse joke voted Gait for being signalled by Okral, Gait goes on to correct them he's not singalling, which completely missed the point, then Gait has to explain himself in 3 posts and that's when Tennes got his hard on first

Thing to take into consideration here, Gait already had scrambling tendencies when voted by Kalse for example, which if they were partners would have been uncalled for

I've said before Gait has a laid back approach, and he apparently does get nervous whenever his safe zone is threatened, but I'm not convinced it's that scummy, I'd expect if he was scum he'd be more guarded about losing his cool like that every time.

That aside Tennes is spot on in most of the inconsistencies he calls out about Gait, but that doesn't make him right, problem I have with him is all the arguments regarding their scumminess boil down to wifom, which is a good thing for scum as then there aren't many real arguments to be said against you. So in this light I can easily imagine Tennes to have played either a scum or town game so far, and he remains on the reasonable side of things, but then his initial D3 case against Gait I view as weak, and the rest is all about Gait scrambling (which makes me view Gait in a similar light in which I saw Rikkter). None of the cases on Tennes convince me either, but that's again because all the argumetns I deem most indicative are wifom.

Gait also reads as if a little loose with his wordings, and as someone who relies on gut more than he lets show (don't we all) and kinda tries to make his arguments fit his gut vision knowing the arguments are not perfect, hence lacking confidence in the arguments themselves. Which also could be put in a way to make it look much scummier.

I honestly couldn't have summed it up better myself.

this is almost too on the nose. in other comments here you're assuming that gait is scum and that you have held that position for al ong time, justifyably so, but then here when discussing gait vs. tennes you....forgot to discuss tennes? oh, except the cases on him don't convince you...what is the point of these long posts about gait vs. tennes if you don't even think the tennes case is worth looking at?

something is off, this suspicious perfect agreement bullshit is suspicious

I honestly have no idea what you are talking about here...

[Okaros]

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 03:50 PM, said:

Plus Tennes' questioning of the derailment narrative was fully justified imo)

At the time I certainly agreed with it, and refused to vote on Thyrllan as a result.

[Tennes]

Okaros, on 22 May 2020 - 03:24 PM, said:

It does appear to be a case of: do you believe the reasonable, clear, and cool-headed person who is possibly smooth, clean-playing scum; or the jittery, scrambling, prone to mistakes one, who is possibly a scum who's bad under pressure? I wouldn't be surprised if they were both scum

Not sure you're gonna find many people to agree I've been playing a clean game

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 03:32 PM, said:

[snip]

Majority of those errors were in response to your case on him, in which case, assuming that he is, the ultimate conclusion is that he's innocent, and whatever your arguments to the contrary he doesn't need to dispute them in order to get to his conclusion, he already knows that one, the disputing is for the rest of the thread, which is why I would expect scum Gait to be more careful with it

[snip]

If someone arrives at a conclusion starting from a false premise, what does it tell us about that conclusion? 🙃


Anyway, I have my own re-reading to finish. One thing I want to is a closer look at Kilava's D3 case. It was long af and Kilava themselves admitted it was bonkers so I didn't pay that much attention to it but they did read Kalse right so maybe there's more to it.


@PS

Is there a freeze this weekend?

[Barghast]

@Tennes

Do you think the idea of scum Gait that crumbles under pressure like this is consistent with the distancing he'd put up against Thyr on D2? When you called him out for the derailment narrative, he didn't back down either, despite how flawed his argument, or atleast it's wording, was, instead straight out voted for Thyr

Sure it was already after Thyr's burial barrage of posts that he was voted for by 3 people, and probably suspected by more, but even tho it was at the time one of 2 likely lynches, there was still enough time and it was hardly decided. If you wanna distance, you generally either do it when you think it's safe to vote your partner, or his demise is inevitable. Your swing vote was on the verge of inevitable, but Gait's was still one of the real swing votes. And before that he says in like 3 posts (that you called him out for) that Thyr's dodgy and bound to get an attention. I've said I try not to get too hung up on the distancing, but to me this seems inconsistent with your idea of scum Gait who crumbles under any bit of pressure.

[Path-Shaper]

No freeze. This day will end when there is a lynch or on Monday 2pm BST. So you can lynch early and I'll resolve or you have extra time.

[Barghast]

Tennes, on 22 May 2020 - 04:36 PM, said:

Barghast, on 22 May 2020 - 03:32 PM, said:

[snip]

Majority of those errors were in response to your case on him, in which case, assuming that he is, the ultimate conclusion is that he's innocent, and whatever your arguments to the contrary he doesn't need to dispute them in order to get to his conclusion, he already knows that one, the disputing is for the rest of the thread, which is why I would expect scum Gait to be more careful with it

[snip]

If someone arrives at a conclusion starting from a false premise, what does it tell us about that conclusion? 🙃

So what exactly is this conclusion? That you're scum? A lot of false accusations against aou alright, but when he finally voted you, i. e. came to his conclusion, I think he's got his shit straight

I'm arguing with you about this because if it comes down to you two you're likelier to go down so I wanna set this as straight as it gets, which is not much but at least something

Here's the vote, probably doesn't warrant being a case, spoilered for size

Spoiler

Gait, on 19 May 2020 - 06:56 PM, said:

Keep all that in mind when you look at this "read" of Kalse

Tennes, on 14 May 2020 - 08:53 PM, said:

Two other people I wanted to look at are Kalse and Barghast.

Kalse's playing a good game but worth keeping an eye on because they're leading the thread much more than I realized. They were the third on the Okral train but it's their read that was by far the most convincing and paved the way to the lynch. Then they also called out Ruse for their bullshit post and now Kalse has been tearing Venesara apart. Ven is now on 3 votes which is making them a viable lynch candidate.

Now, I can't really hold this against Kalse because their reads are solid and they're making good observations. Being good at Mafia doesn't mean you're scummy (duh), though it's obviously easier to make good observations when you already have all the information. So just putting this out there, because Kalse has been the most influential player in the game so far and doesn't seem to be getting one bit of scrutiny.

One Kalse's post jumped at me as weird:

Kalse, on 14 May 2020 - 05:09 AM, said:

Tennes, on 13 May 2020 - 10:34 PM, said:

Two observations from end of D1:

Prazec mistaking Okral for Okaros. There was an ongoing conversation about Okral and Prazec themselves mentioned Okral in previous posts. Okaros, meanwhile, was mentioned like once or twice on thread. Why would Okaros even be on Prazec's mind. Smells of a slip.

Venesara came on thread hours before timeout and was supposed to have been catching up. They then went on to quote some stuff that looks like a random collection of posts, without really committing to anything and avoiding to pass judgement. Textbook example of trying to look like you're contributing without actually sticking your neck out. They didn't even vote.

About Prazec, when I was catching up my first thought was "let's see that because of that we miss the lynch by one vote and Prazec will be all sorry guyz I confused an we would waste a lynch, and second day of arguing about it - great symp play!". But then it turned out there was enough time for him to get corrected and even an extra vote to be safe.

Venesara basically admitted that they catch up the thread reading the posts non-sequentially. Now, to each their own, but that sounds more like scanning for things to quote in order to appear to contribute than actually trying to get actionnable information.

That's just rehashing what I said. It stands out because it's something a coaster would post while Kalse has been anything but.

So from the start Tennes has done two things.

Tennes has commended Kalses play and reads them as the MVP town. there's a play at being critical but its barely fluff.

Tennes then turns the narrative, in this case praising Bharghasts post, while piling subtle shade on Bharghast because they did not dive in on Rikkter, Skintick and KALSE. The same players at the start of his list in his "Solid play category." I think thats contradictory but serves to also encourage interest in Aranatha, Venesara and myself.

Tennes, on 14 May 2020 - 08:53 PM, said:

Now, Barghast. Their most important post is probably this:

Barghast, on 13 May 2020 - 03:25 PM, said:

What a pretty pile up, will be interesting to analyze later

Thought it might be connected to Tennes getting 2 votes to Okral's 3 but then the Okral voters are pretty direct in opposing the votes on Tennes which doesn't look like a scum strategy

I don't think Okral is that likely to be a killer, his play seems too unguarded for scum, wishy washy indeed but like careless about it

I wouldn't bring up lack of resistance as an argument, this is not much of a time or situation for resistance from scum

But still this was easy and I'm a little alarmed how swiftly the train went, including Ruse's and Ara's relatively quick switch from Tennes (Note that Aranatha is suddenly content enough with following Tennes after all the vibe scanner stuff)

vote Thyrllan

A lot of dubious stuff going on today but it kinda started when there were 2 votes on Thyr, who during that time got a few joke or otherwise altogether insubstantial posts in, made sure he takes having the votes on himself with ease, then as the attention on him died away so did his presence

At this point it's already L-3 for Okral so it's clear there's not going to be another lynch. Yet Barghast decides to push back towards Thyr and also low-key pushes the derailing narrative. This reads like a townie play, especially in hindsight - questioning a lynch train and offering an alternative to make sure the lynch doesn't go through too easily.

But yet again, it rubs me the wrong way that despite questioning the validity of the train, Barghast never notices or puts any pressure on Rikkter, Skintick, or Kalse who started that train. They pressed Aranatha and Venesara, early on they had a brief interaction with Gait, but never anything about these three.

This is Tennes, they have applied shade on almost everyone in some form or other but its how he shapes these two "commendations" that bothers me.
It's followed by this summation which drive home categories they may have been pushing for later. (speculation)

Tennes, on 14 May 2020 - 08:59 PM, said:

tl;dr of my re-read and summary of my thoughts so far:

Prazec and Ruse still stand out as the scummiest to me. I'm happy with my vote and I don't believe one bit that Prazec randomly just switched from writing Okral to Okaros. If Prazec flips scum, Okaros is their partner.

Gait and Barghast are pushing the idea that a Thyr train was derailed on D1 but didn't investigate that derailment at all. Rikkter, who started the Okral train, didn't even get a mention from them so far.

Kalse's case on Venesara sounds good. Ven would be my third choice at the moment after Prazec and Ruse. Kalse has been playing a game so clean my gut almost tells me it's too clean.

Thyr is a coaster but the D1 'train' was literally two semi-joking votes, so the whole derailment things sounds blown out of proportion.

I dont know about Bharghast, nor did I engage with them but as early as D2 Tennes lumps me in with them for pushing a narrative on Thyr which I openly and repeatedly have said was bare bones. Yes I thought it was worth a look but after I looked I said no, derailment was not enough.

Note we are lumped together again for a completely different reason that obscurely links to a Tennes read off Kalses VPI list, again talking about derailment on Thyr which again my Vote activity and reasoning contradict (IMO).


Because of this, and a Push on Ven, Tennes praises Kalse. He also uses this to criticise myself and Bharghast, I may be overlooking the context on Bharghast but I find it jarring this much effort is placed on discrediting this particular aspect of a train with a scum CF.

I read these Interactions as Support of Kalse and criticism of attention on Thyr.
I dont need to emphasize how premeditated this sort of support and mudslinging looks like with actual evidence in hand on Thyr and Kalse.

Thats me, I am likely biased but I think its worth a vote.



Vote Tennes

[Barghast]

Tennes, on 22 May 2020 - 04:36 PM, said:

One thing I want to is a closer look at Kilava's D3 case. It was long af and Kilava themselves admitted it was bonkers so I didn't pay that much attention to it but they did read Kalse right so maybe there's more to it.

Don't hold your hopes high

[Kilava]

Okaros, on 22 May 2020 - 03:44 PM, said:

I've just been rereading over Rikkter's case on Tennes trying to save Thyrllan (from 17 May), I won't post it again as it is pretty long, but it is worth having a look at. As well as trying to show how Tennes, much like Kalse, tried to deflect away from Thyrllan, it does make the point (which I think I may also have mentioned some time back), that Tennes' eventual vote on Thyr was a little surprising considering how many other options they had put on the table. To Rikkter it read like capitulation to the inevitable (although I would suggest that the actual no-going-back point on Thyr's train was Kilava's vote, which followed Tennes').

it is interesting though that after going 4-4 , tennes puts thyr over to 5 vs ven @ 4. my vote took ven to 3 and thyr to 6, kalse immediately quoted me and followed my vote, and then it was thyr @ 7 and ven @ 3, and with 10 votes needed that was it.

I didn't buy rikkter's case at the time but if he was right, this vote is the weirdest thing for tennes. pushing a 4-4 vote deadlock with 10 votes needed is super dangerous (because of reasons you mention). i did even say that I waited because pulling my vote and voting thyr was a 2 vote swing because I was already voting for Ven, so you're right about that, but i purposefully waited until someone else broke the deadlock, which I'm glad i did, anything else would have been a bad play. if tennes is scum then I think that scum realized Thyr was toast before or at the 4-4 lock, and piling on the train after it can't be stopped is always mildly suspicious - much better to be early or middle of the pack. with scum looking at a day 1 lynch on their own killer, the more inevitable it becomes the less they can afford to distance themselves, joining early on a known scum target is just less scummy. kalse was waiting in the wings to vote too.

just like we said earlier thyr's vote on fandy instead of piling on Ven doesn't make a lot of sense, could have easily upped the pressure and made for a more difficult lynch. if tennes is scum, he could have easily voted Ven instead of Thyr at 4-4 - nothing else would make sense unless intentionally sacrificing Thyr - and this would allow kalse to STAY on Ven and allow Thyr to SWITCH to Ven without questions. this doesn't even take aranatha into account, he voted later. much cleaner scum play from tennes and even it draws suspicion, it saves a scum from a lynch.

this part of tennes's play is what keeps me on the fence, either his scum play is too slick to notice (which also implicates ara), or he's town making the best choice he can and the Thyr vote was great town play. (my gut says town) and the first thing aranatha says is to look to who wasn't on the train or didn't vote for scum. this is dodgy whether tennes is scum or not, but if he is aranatha basically said "we lost a scum and ALL of the other 3 of us are on the train, let's not focus there." I don't like that at all, it was called out at the time, but now it certainly seems like tried to lead the thread and setup targets before night even resolved. in the same vote post ara laments at having to agree with ....tennes. hmm.

in fact if you watch kalse's votes, he used my logic to jump on the thyr train, followed my vote to Ven (while dismissing it as baseless (it was but he was still riding coattails))...

this doesn't look bad until it became easy to look at the activity above and see ara voting scum to seem inno by following fellow scum (kalse) and distancing other scum (tennes) while they are all 3 on the same train on scum.

hard to imagine - but if tennes is scum, on day 1 we have thyr (scum) being lynched, tennes (scum for this argument) tipping the vote further onto thyr instead of Ven, and kalse (scum) voting thyr 2 votes after tennes, ara (scum) joining the train late and telling everyone to look elsewhere. lot of potential fucking scum in the mess there.