[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Forgot to mention: 'A plan to waive patents can’t get the green light without EU approval.'

https://www.thedaily...vaccine-patents

Not sure how valid Macron and Merkel's assertions are. Even if there's some validity to them, Merkel's apparent objection that 'a patent waiver could do more to benefit a geopolitical rival like China, which has production capacity to make use of Western mRNA technology, than it would to help needy countries in Africa obtain vaccines' has decreased my respect for her as a world leader... unless she really means she has strong evidence the benefit would be negligible. What seems most bizarre about it though is the brazenness of prioritizing the competition for geopolitical/economic dominance (probably not a coincidence that BioNTech, as in the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, is a German company) over ending the pandemic... almost Trumpian.

[Gorefest]

I disagree. I think scrapping patents is an unwise move and the patents are not what is holding back vaccine rollout in poorer countries. It is richer countries like the US and the UK prioritising domestic vaccinations over world wide distribution.

If you really want to go down the route of waiving patents, you need to first seriously rethink the whole way that vaccine research is conducted and funded. Otherwise by doing so you will simply kill long term development in favour of short term popularity scoring. It displays a shocking lack of understanding on how current medicine R&D and clinical trials are funded. It is insanely expensive and high risk for any financers (mostly pharmaceutical companies). Take away high rewards and companies will stop taking high financial risks, so in that case (like with covid) it would fall on national governments to take that financial hit. Or completely rethink your medicine approval procecures, red tape, and ethics.

[Edit] In the specific case of e.g. the AstraZeneca vaccine, I accept that a case could be made as this was mostly bankrolled by governments (predominantly the UK one). But this is also exactly why it is currently so very cheap compared to the other vaccines on the market, which sort of was the whole point. But for e.g. the Pfizer development, the Trump administration didnt lift a finger and let Pfizer make all the big investments and take the risks, after which the Donald tried to bask in the glory of its efficacy by claiming it was a national achievement.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 09 May 2021 - 07:12 AM

[Aptorian]

Gyms opened last thursday.

I cannot wait to go to the gym tomorrow. It's been almost 6 months since I've last done a workout.

I've been much more sedentary this time around than the first lock down so I'm going to be absolutely ruined for the next week.

It's going to be great!

[Mezla PigDog]

I don't really understand the economics of vaccines or patents to make a decent comment. Working in the European Med Tech sector I do know that most US and EU companies don't sell their products into China the way they do everywhere else. The Chinese regulatory model is to dissect any application to the point where the state can steal all their secrets and make their own version. As far as I can tell, the big companies set up Chinese versions of themselves and do it all inside Chinese borders but not with their most cutting edge products. It has lead to China being the main outsourced manufacturer of lateral flow tests (not just covid) because they can manufacture at high volume and cheaply due to poor labour rights. And the tech is old school.

So it is kind of a big deal for global economics to give technology leg ups to China. Something needs to be done somewhere to help poorer nations vaccinate faster, that's for sure.

[Mezla PigDog]

Moderna dose 1 done.

This post has been edited by Mezla PigDog: 09 May 2021 - 01:21 PM

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 09 May 2021 - 07:05 AM, said:

[Edit] In the specific case of e.g. the AstraZeneca vaccine, I accept that a case could be made as this was mostly bankrolled by governments (predominantly the UK one). But this is also exactly why it is currently so very cheap compared to the other vaccines on the market, which sort of was the whole point. But for e.g. the Pfizer development, the Trump administration didnt lift a finger and let Pfizer make all the big investments and take the risks, after which the Donald tried to bask in the glory of its efficacy by claiming it was a national achievement.

Pfizer seems to be the exception. The vast majority of funding for the Moderna and Johnson and Johnson vaccines came from the US government, though Johnson and Johnson also had substantial private investment:

'U.S. agencies committed about $2.5 billion to help develop Moderna’s vaccine[... in addition to] support from Emory University, Vanderbilt University Medical Center, the Dolly Parton COVID-19 Research Fund and other organizations in the development of the Moderna vaccine [...] the funding to Emory and Vanderbilt, as well as Emmes and Kaiser Washington, came through NIH, meaning it was funded by taxpayers.

Parton mentioned her million-dollar donation ["donation" rather than "investment" then, as in charitable donation I'd guess] — which amounts to less than 1% of the total amount of development funding — because of her friendship with Dr. Naji Abumrad, who treated her after a 2014 car crash[...]

To say that the vaccine is fully funded by the federal government discounts a small but very real private donation to Vanderbilt University Medical Center [... though that donation was also ultimately funded by taxpayers]'

https://www.usatoday...ine/6398486002/


'Johnson & Johnson secured more than $1 billion in additional funding for its COVID-19 vaccine research through an expansion of its partnership with the Biomedical Advanced Research and Development Authority (BARDA), a division of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.

[...] on top of additional funding of more than $1 billion the company previously received from the federal government for the development of the COVID-19 vaccine candidate. The federal dollars will be paired with $604 million invested by J&J pharmaceutical subsidiary Janssen.'

https://www.biospace...vid-19-vaccine/

'a supply chain expert [...] said the biggest barrier to increasing the global vaccine supply is a lack of raw materials and facilities that manufacture the billions of doses the world needs. [...]

“My take is: By itself, [waiving patents] will not get us much benefit in increased manufacturing capacity,” Yadav said. “But as part of a larger package, it can.”

That larger package would include wealthy nations like the U.S. mounting an Operation Warp Speed-style effort to invest in manufacturing in low-income countries, he said, using their vast financial resources to actually produce vaccine doses rather than solely targeting patents.

Even James Love, [...] a longtime advocate of intellectual property reform, acknowledges a patent waiver would be a valuable first step, not a panacea. The fairly narrow proposal would mostly allow countries to issue compulsory licenses, essentially allowing third-party manufacturers to make and sell other companies’ patented products, while also helping free up some information about how that manufacturing is done.

[...]

In October, Moderna vowed not to enforce its Covid-19-related patents for the duration of the pandemic, opening the door for manufacturers that might want to copy its vaccine. But to date, it’s unclear whether anyone has, despite the vaccine’s demonstrated efficacy and the worldwide demand for doses.

[...] vaccines like the ones from Pfizer and Moderna — using messenger RNA technology — require skilled expertise that even existing manufacturers are having trouble sourcing.

“In such a setting, imagining that someone will have staff who can create a new site or refurbish or reconfigure an existing site to make mRNA [vaccine] is highly, highly unlikely,” [...]

There are already huge constraints on some of the raw materials and equipment used to make vaccines. Pfizer[...] had to appeal to the Biden administration to use the Defense Production Act to help it cut the line for in-demand materials necessary for manufacturing.

[...]

“[...] gap in understanding of the complexities of vaccine manufacturing by many of the ‘experts’ that are discussing it,” [...] “nearly all of the people who are providing views on the value of removing patent protections have zero experience in vaccine development and manufacturing.”

[...] Stephen Ubl, CEO of the powerful lobbying group PhRMA, said in a statement that the idea “flies in the face of President Biden’s stated policy of building up American infrastructure and creating jobs by handing over American innovations to countries looking to undermine our leadership in biomedical discovery.”'

https://www.statnews...an-substantive/

If the world isn't vaccinated, mutations will almost certainly keep the pandemic ravaging the economies even of wealthy countries, and have far worse effects on their overall economies than helping China speed their development of pharma tech might.

Helping China develop better medical research technology helps the world. The point of medicine should be public health, not private profit and power über alles. While allowing China to copy 'intellectual property' from privately funded drug research might undermine the system of incentives in the US (though I remember seeing that debunked in the past), this waiver is a one-off in response to an extraordinary situation, and should have minimal impact on future incentives.

[amphibian]

Gorefest, on 09 May 2021 - 07:05 AM, said:

I disagree. I think scrapping patents is an unwise move and the patents are not what is holding back vaccine rollout in poorer countries. It is richer countries like the US and the UK prioritising domestic vaccinations over world wide distribution.

If you really want to go down the route of waiving patents, you need to first seriously rethink the whole way that vaccine research is conducted and funded. Otherwise by doing so you will simply kill long term development in favour of short term popularity scoring. It displays a shocking lack of understanding on how current medicine R&D and clinical trials are funded. It is insanely expensive and high risk for any financers (mostly pharmaceutical companies). Take away high rewards and companies will stop taking high financial risks, so in that case (like with covid) it would fall on national governments to take that financial hit. Or completely rethink your medicine approval procecures, red tape, and ethics.

[Edit] In the specific case of e.g. the AstraZeneca vaccine, I accept that a case could be made as this was mostly bankrolled by governments (predominantly the UK one). But this is also exactly why it is currently so very cheap compared to the other vaccines on the market, which sort of was the whole point. But for e.g. the Pfizer development, the Trump administration didnt lift a finger and let Pfizer make all the big investments and take the risks, after which the Donald tried to bask in the glory of its efficacy by claiming it was a national achievement.

Why are you talking about the removal of all vaccine patents? The issue here is whether the COVID-19 vaccine patents should be removed. We're not talking about all vaccines or any others.

The public utility of assisting any entities who want to produce good COVID-19 vaccines is so high that it's an easy "yes" for me. It can be simultaneously true that companies spent a lot of money and took risks to develop this and that releasing this specific know-how to the world is the right thing to do.

This is killing lots of people and damaging the lives of many more. Stopping that is much more important than whether a company makes its money back.

[Macros]

Silly Amph

Nothing is more important than making money you filthy Communist!

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'Roughly a third of the unvaccinated population said a cash payment would make them more likely to get a shot. The benefits were largest for those in the group getting $100, which increased willingness (34 percent said they would get vaccinated) by six points over the $25 group.

The effect was greatest for unvaccinated Democrats, 48 percent of whom said they would be more likely to get vaccinated if it came with a $100 payment.

Some past research shows that payment for vaccines can backfire, and in the U.C.L.A. study about 15 percent of unvaccinated people report a decrease in willingness to vaccinate because of payments. But at this later stage of a vaccine campaign — when attention has now turned to the hesitant — the net benefit seems to be tilting toward payment.

The incentive to stop wearing a mask and social-distancing in public also had a strong result. On average, relaxing the mask and social distancing guidelines increased vaccine uptake likelihood by 13 points. The largest gains came from Republicans, who reported an 18-point increase in willingness to get vaccinated.'

https://www.nytimes....experiment.html

'"It is not a surprising result. We've used cash incentives believe it or not in other settings, encouraged folks to do sexually transmitted infection screenings and some other interventions. So they do work," [...]

"It's not one size fits all. I think cash incentives may appeal to some. To others, it may mean that their friends are going to Outside Lands and they need a vaccine to get in, and maybe that might be the incentive. For others it might be the vaccinated section at the Giants game seem to have a little more liberties than the unvaccinated section," [...]


Some states are incentivizing COVID-19 vaccinations with everything from free beer to $100 payments.

For example, West Virginia is offering $100 savings bonds to 16- to 35-year-olds who get vaccinated, and Maryland will pay fully vaccinated state employees $100.

Some breweries in New Jersey are giving out free drinks, while Connecticut and Washington, D.C., are doing something similar.

[...] U.S. Census Bureau data shows that under 15% of adults in the U.S. identify as vaccine-hesitant. For this portion of the population, such incentives wouldn't work and would likely alienate them even more from getting the shot.'

https://www.cbs42.co...get-vaccinated/

This could slow vaccination in states that haven't implemented cash payments, if people start holding out for them (or maybe even for larger ones in states that do offer them).

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 09 May 2021 - 07:03 PM

[Cause]

Regarding vaccine patents, for me the big questions is this. South Africa was one of the companies championing it at the WTO. Even if the patents are limited I am not sure of How South Africa plans to suddenly mass produce the vaccine itself. The state tried to create a vaccine company BioVac, but Im not sure it was very succesful. Also given SOuth Africas track record of running state owned/managed parastatals Id be sceptical.

[Mezla PigDog]

Mezla PigDog, on 09 May 2021 - 01:21 PM, said:

Moderna dose 1 done.

Apart from a sore arm I'm side effect free.....so far. My family members who had AZ and felt really rough are literally cursing at me

[Macros]

Ugh, I have a covid is not that dangerouser at work now.

Asking me why I would take the vaccine when it doesn't work.

I just have to switch off, I dont have the will of energy for this

[amphibian]

My first dose of Moderna just gave me a sore arm. The second one made me super super tired for a day and a half, plus feeling like I was low level sick.

I'm very happy to be through it and have my energy back.

[Gorefest]

@Amph: firstly, there is absolutely no clear indication that lifting the patent would actually increase global production. The real problem is nations like the US and the UK hogging the vaccine production for their own citizens first. Dropping the patent isnt suddenly going to make mass production more viable. Secondly, this time is it Covid that is de-licensed, but you can make that same claim for lots of other vaccines out there. So you open up a pandorra's box for vaccine manufacture, making it very unattractive for pharmaceutical companies to invest in future diseases because they risk getting the rug pulled from underneath them. The proposed action does not resolve the underlying issue and has the potential to cause lots more issues further down the line.

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 11 May 2021 - 09:51 AM

[Obdigore]

Gorefest, on 11 May 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

@Amph: firstly, there is absolutely no clear indication that lifting the patent would actually increase global production. The real problem is nations like the US and the UK hogging the vaccine production for their own citizens first. Dropping the patent isnt suddenly going to make mass production more viable. Secondly, this time is it Covid that is de-licensed, but you can make that same claim for lots of other vaccines out there. So you open up a pandorra's box for vaccine manufacture, making it very unattractive for pharmaceutical companies to invest in future diseases because they risk getting the rug pulled from underneath them. The proposed action does not resolve the underlying issue and has the potential to cause lots more issues further down the line.

You're right. Capitalism continues to fail to provide for the needs of the many instead of the desires of the few. I guess your proposal that we end capitalism is the only one that has merit.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

'COVID-19 patients in India are being diagnosed with mucormycosis — a rare but potentially deadly fungal infection that attacks the brain.

[...]

"The disease is caused by a group of molds called mucormycetes that live throughout the environment, including in soil and on plants. Mucormycosis is seen throughout the world, including in the U.S. and Australia. It can be acquired in hospitals — most commonly, by vulnerable transplant patients — when the molds get on hospital linens, travel through ventilation systems, or are transmitted on adhesives."

[...] mucormycetes are "a family of fungus that gets into your sinuses and deposit there, and they can get into the air spaces in your head. And when your immune system can't keep them under control, they invade the base of your brain"[...]

"We give a lot of high-dose steroids now to people with COVID-19 if they end up in intensive care, as the steroids help to treat inflammation, but the steroids, unfortunately, also suppress your immune system [and ...] your ability to fight normal infections, like fungus"[...]

[...] mucormycosis has a mortality rate of at least 50%.'

https://www.alternet.../2021/05/india/

[amphibian]

Gorefest, on 11 May 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

@Amph: firstly, there is absolutely no clear indication that lifting the patent would actually increase global production. The real problem is nations like the US and the UK hogging the vaccine production for their own citizens first. Dropping the patent isnt suddenly going to make mass production more viable. Secondly, this time is it Covid that is de-licensed, but you can make that same claim for lots of other vaccines out there. So you open up a pandorra's box for vaccine manufacture, making it very unattractive for pharmaceutical companies to invest in future diseases because they risk getting the rug pulled from underneath them. The proposed action does not resolve the underlying issue and has the potential to cause lots more issues further down the line.

Any competent production of Covid-19 vaccine is welcome, whether it's in the millions or thousands or hundreds of doses. Releasing the process for any entity to produce enables that. A Kodak factory shifting over to produce vaccine isn't going to save a country enormous pain/burden, but they can make enough to vaccinate a few hospitals worth of front line workers until the big vaccine factories can start sending the big amounts of vaccine to that place.

As for other vaccines, nobody's talking seriously about that now. Cross that bridge if we get there. This is the right thing to do instead of watching the pockets of multi billion companies for them.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

Gorefest, on 11 May 2021 - 09:50 AM, said:

@Amph: firstly, there is absolutely no clear indication that lifting the patent would actually increase global production. The real problem is nations like the US and the UK hogging the vaccine production for their own citizens first. Dropping the patent isnt suddenly going to make mass production more viable. Secondly, this time is it Covid that is de-licensed, but you can make that same claim for lots of other vaccines out there. So you open up a pandorra's box for vaccine manufacture, making it very unattractive for pharmaceutical companies to invest in future diseases because they risk getting the rug pulled from underneath them. The proposed action does not resolve the underlying issue and has the potential to cause lots more issues further down the line.

When I looked into investing in these companies early in the pandemic analysts were already warning iirc that something like this was likely.

Many diseases for which vaccines are being developed pose no or minimal risk of becoming pandemics, or at least pandemics that have a major impact on the global economy.

Granted, the argument could be plausibly extended to new viruses which might become pandemics.

Health expenditures like vaccines against potential pandemics should be equivalent to taxes, as it effectively is in countries with government health care. The US would be better off if funding for health research shifted further away from attempts to maximize shareholder value and more towards government financing. Profit and public health do not coincide as well as they could with more government direction. Would that mean less money going into vaccine development in the mid to long term? People invest because they expect to gain more than they put in... and they get that more (putting aside the stock market partly being a pyramid scheme, especially over the short term) from what should be considered necessary expenditures on the part of (primarily) US taxpayers being bilked by the healthcare industry. While US healthcare is unlikely to become deprivatized anytime soon, wide support for taxpayer funding to prevent potential pandemics does seem likely, and likely to last... for a while at least.

This post has been edited by Azath Vitr (D'ivers: 11 May 2021 - 06:15 PM

[Macros]

counterpoint.

nothing will be declared a pandemic again because it grant free license

further counterpoint, people cry pandemic for everything to try get free research.

devils advocate, fuck for profit health care

[Mezla PigDog]

As well as rich nations hogging doses, isn't a big bottle neck in the manufacturing supply chain? I read that the large bags they ferment the cells in are in short supply and now on a 12 week lead time compared to previously 4 weeks or something. And I guess there is not much point manufacturing in smaller batches if you can get smaller bags because it's better to manufacture smaller numbers of huge batches for logistical reasons. There must be issues with other components or purifying stuff. The supply chain must be massive and it will all need to be cGMP certified which means you can't get any old giant bag....