[Aptorian]

Switched to a Kindle version since I prefer reading on my phone.

Just reached the part where they're crossing the river and Nil is summoning "undead" warriors to counter Kanist Reloe's advance:

Quote

‘How can this be?’ Duiker asked. ‘Hood’s Warren – this is necromantic, not—’ ‘Maybe they’re not true undead,’ List suggested. ‘Maybe the island’s spirit simply uses them—’ The historian shook his head. ‘Not entirely. Hear that laughter – that song – do you hear the language? These warriors have had their souls awakened. Those souls must have remained, held by the spirit, never released to Hood. We’ll pay for this, Corporal. Every one of us.’

Other figures were emerging from the ground on all sides: women, children, dogs. Many of the dogs still wore leather harnesses, still dragged the remnants of travois. The women held their children to their bosoms, gripping the bone hafts of wide-bladed bronze knives they had plunged into those children. An ancient, final tragedy in frozen tableau, as a whole tribe faced slaughter at the hands of some unknown foe – how many thousands of years ago did this happen, how long have these trapped souls held on to this horrifying, heart-rending moment? And now? Are they doomed to repeat that eternal anguish? ‘Hood bless these,’ Duiker whispered, ‘please. Take them. Take them now.’

The women were locked into that fatal pattern. He watched them thrusting daggers home, watched the children jerk and writhe, listened to their short-lived wails. He watched as the women then fell, heads crumpling to unseen weapons – to memories only they could see . . . and feel. The remorseless executions went on, and on.

This is some dark shit.

[Traveller]

'Those souls must have remained, held by the spirit, never released to Hood. We’ll pay for this, Corporal. Every one of us.’

Interesting couple of lines in there.

The latest interview with SE is well worth a listen. If you haven't heard it, he discusses the religious aspect to Coltaines journey, and how practical but hidden solutions (like the sappers paving the river) get turned into myths or miracles (walking on water) and how all the elements of the Chain of Dogs and how the story is told after becomes the beginning of a religion. Duiker presumably records it, there are witnesses on the walls of Aren that aren't among the number that march out and die. The myths and story of Coltaines fall and rebirth are going to be further explored in a later book apparently, with the CoDs the start of a Crow cult/religion.

I guess at the point Coltaine smashed Geslers nose and breaks his hand, and shows he's on the way to ascension, shows how he's already gained enough worshippers to start that process.

Just worth noting, as some details on the journey gain significance when seen in retrospect, in the way events can be interpreted as impossible feats or miracles.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 19 February 2020 - 10:18 AM

[Gorefest]

To be fair though, as opposed to 'real world' events where people are contributing religious significance to such matters, in the Malazan universe it actually does work. So that makes it lose a bit of its metaphorical efficacy. Still interesting angle though and it shows the depth of thought behind the whole series. Erikson is a true craftsman and a bloody clever bloke.

[Traveller]

I just liked the way that the whole chain of dogs story is, to SE, a backstory for something else later.

[Traveller]

I just liked the way that the whole chain of dogs story is, to SE, a backstory for something else later.

I've hit the end. Its heartbreaking, and those scenes from the walls of Aren will always be some of the most harrowing. Pormqual is, unfortunately, all too real a character lifted from history - the incompetent highborn with no military experience who is responsible for the ruin of his army. I liked the comment about him sitting a horse better when he was dead!

I'm not sure that having read so much about the malazan soldiers being ruthless because they are 'allowed to think' fits with 10,000 of them all staying inside Aren just because of the failure of one commander failing to act. In the BBs alone we know that incompetent commanders wouldn't last a week - so it's a bit odd that no one breaks rank to help Coltaine.

Awesome ending though. Brutal. Heboric looking up sightlessly at Duiker... ohh man.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 19 February 2020 - 02:13 PM

[Abyss]

Been reading in bits and pieces as time permits... just getting to the Chain now.
Knowing what's coming is split anticipation and dread.

[Stalker]

Just finished - had detoured through some science fiction that I wanted to finish up before starting this.

I capped it off with SE’s podcast episode yesterday too - some good questions and answers. Interesting to hear that the scene at the end where Mappo and Icarium show up too late to save anyone (except for Bent and Roach) was the starting point for writing this novel. A tiny gesture to help offset the horror of the Chain of Dogs. SE does a good job of using small moments like that to lighten the mood - like Coltaine demoting the sapper captain. It’s a wonderful moment amidst the darkening tone as the Chain nears its conclusion.

[Aptorian]

Quote

Gesler and Stormy were at the steering oar, both men grinning like demented fools as they struggled to stay the course. Gesler pointed forward and Kulp turned to see the vague, ghostlike apparition of the dragon, its narrow, bony tail waving in side-to-side rhythm like a snake crossing sand. As he watched, the creature’s wedge-shaped head appeared as it twisted to cast its dead, black eye sockets in their direction.

Gesler waved.

Deadhouse Gates: 2 (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (p. 385). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

lol

[Aptorian]

Quote

‘So the Talons remain,’ Heboric said. ‘Then who commands you?’ ‘No-one,’ Baudin answered. ‘I was born into it. There’s a handful left, kicking around here and there, either old or drooling or both. A few first sons inherited . . . the secret. Dancer’s not dead. He ascended, alongside Kellanved – my father was there to see it, in Malaz City, the night of the Shadow Moon.’

Deadhouse Gates: 2 (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (p. 394). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Do we know who Baudin's father is?

I guess I'll figure out when I read Night of Knives. Maybe?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 20 February 2020 - 01:47 PM

[Gorefest]

It is Baudin Elder, who was killed by the claw in Quon Tali during the purges. There is a kid called Baudin who appears in the Esslemont empire series, so that may be him. Or Baudin's grandad, perhaps.

[champ]

Aptorian, on 20 February 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

Quote

'So the Talons remain,' Heboric said. 'Then who commands you?' 'No-one,' Baudin answered. 'I was born into it. There's a handful left, kicking around here and there, either old or drooling or both. A few first sons inherited . . . the secret. Dancer's not dead. He ascended, alongside Kellanved – my father was there to see it, in Malaz City, the night of the Shadow Moon.'

Deadhouse Gates: 2 (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (p. 394). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Do we know who Baudin's father is?

I guess I'll figure out when I read Night of Knives. Maybe?

IIRC his father is called Baudin too...

[Aptorian]

Oh right, a Baudin appears in the prequels.

[Abyss]

Aptorian, on 20 February 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

Quote

'So the Talons remain,' Heboric said. 'Then who commands you?' 'No-one,' Baudin answered. 'I was born into it. There's a handful left, kicking around here and there, either old or drooling or both. A few first sons inherited . . . the secret. Dancer's not dead. He ascended, alongside Kellanved – my father was there to see it, in Malaz City, the night of the Shadow Moon.'

Deadhouse Gates: 2 (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (p. 394). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Do we know who Baudin's father is?

I guess I'll figure out when I read Night of Knives. Maybe?

Gorefest, on 20 February 2020 - 02:25 PM, said:

It is Baudin Elder, who was killed by the claw in Quon Tali during the purges. There is a kid called Baudin who appears in the Esslemont empire series, so that may be him. Or Baudin's grandad, perhaps.

champ, on 20 February 2020 - 02:33 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 20 February 2020 - 01:47 PM, said:

Quote

'So the Talons remain,' Heboric said. 'Then who commands you?' 'No-one,' Baudin answered. 'I was born into it. There's a handful left, kicking around here and there, either old or drooling or both. A few first sons inherited . . . the secret. Dancer's not dead. He ascended, alongside Kellanved – my father was there to see it, in Malaz City, the night of the Shadow Moon.'

Deadhouse Gates: 2 (The Malazan Book Of The Fallen) (p. 394). Transworld. Kindle Edition.

Do we know who Baudin's father is?

I guess I'll figure out when I read Night of Knives. Maybe?

IIRC his father is called Baudin too...

I figured Baudin Sr. was the Shadow Cultist/Talon who spoke with Temper outside of the Deadhouse. No reason other than he seemed to be in charge. He gives the name 'Pralt' but that's not significant. Could have also been the squat cultist who escorted Temper to the meeting, the description reads like a shorter Baudin.

[champ]

Making progress through the book, I've been making notes as I go along, here is some of the ramble from the earlier chapters:




~ Baudin ending up next to Felisin is obviously by Tavore's design…


It must be heart breaking for Tavore considering this is the last time she sees her sister alive…


Do you believe that Tavore had anything to do with Duiker making the request to Kulp to help rescue Heboric which would knock on to Felisin and Baudin or it is just a coincidence?


I cannot remember if this is confirmed at all later on.

Quote

"I am getting bored, Mappo," Icarium said. The six wolves stiffened as one, half flinching. Mappo Runt and Icarium. Ah, we see. Know that we've no quarrel with you. "Wits matched," Mappo said, his grin broadening a moment before disappearing entirely. "Hunt elsewhere, Ryllandaras, before Icarium does Treach a favor." Before you unleash all that I am sworn to prevent. "Am I understood?"

Finally meeting Icarium after what we learned about him in GotM and instantly realise how much of a badass he is due to Ryllandaras reaction to learning who Mappo/Icarium were… this whole interaction is awesome… though also heart breaking as even here we learn how Mappo is fatalistic with what is to come.

Quote

Beside the Imperial Historian stood the High Fist's representative, Mallick Rel, his fat, soft hands folded together and resting on his paunch, his skin the color of oiled leather and smelling of Aren perfumes. Mallick Rel looked nothing like the chief adviser to the Seven Cities' commander of the Malazan armies.

Is it just me or do you instantly take a dislike to Rel with the above…




~ SE and his quality writing with Coltaine and his Introduction… a few lines of text we learn a lot about Coltaine and the Wickans… you can be nothing but impressed with how Coltaine turns the situation around and the Wickans mount up…

Quote

"You picked the wrong fishermen," Fiddler said, lowering his weapon.

Cheesy line but epic scene…


The entire boat scene with Fiddler, Kalam, Apsalar and Crokus is a joy to read… great moments come thick and fast… Badass Fiddler, Crokus recounting the BB's history, Kalam's ominous…

Quote

"It's this, lad. Time's come. I'm going after her."

…

Empress? How?" "He means," Apsalar said, still smiling a smile that had belonged to her once, long ago, when she'd been…someone else, "that he's going to try and kill her."
"What?" Crokus stood, almost pitching himself over the side. "You? You and a seasick sapper with a broken fiddle strapped to his back? Do you think we're going to help you in this insane, suicidal—"

Oh Crokus, if you only knew… oh wait… you soon learn as we then have Apsalar recalling Kalam's past…

Quote

I remember," Apsalar said suddenly, her eyes narrowing on Kalam. Crokus turned to her. "Remember what?" "Kalam. He was a Falah'dan's Dagger, and the Claw gave him command of a Hand. Kalam's a master assassin, Crokus. And Quick Ben—" "Is three thousand leagues away!" Crokus shouted. "He's a squad mage, for Hood's sake! That's it, a squalid little squad mage!" "Not quite," Fiddler said. "And being so far away doesn't mean a thing, son. Quick Ben's our shaved knuckle in the hole." "Your what in the where?" "Shaved knuckle, as in the game of knuckles—a good gambler's usually using a shaved knuckle, as in cheating in the casts, if you know what I mean. As for 'hole,' that'd be Quick Ben's Warren—the one that can put him at Kalam's side in the space of a heartbeat, no matter how far away he happens to be.

Any theories on what warren it is that QB uses to do this? I was wondering if it is Tennes or D'riss, something connected to the land or earth as he uses acorns…




~ The entire council scene is another scene that is a joy to behold, the earlier parts of this book are some of my favourite from throughout the whole series…
~ Big FU slap down to the messenger boy Rel, jog on son!
~ Eleven days, eleven crows, such power from Sorno, this little scene makes the Coltaine moment at the end of the book so much more powerful…
~ Old Guard disappearing / drowning… Hello RotCG!

Quote

You assume they were murdered at Laseen's command," Bult said, baring his jagged teeth. "But imagine a circumstance where the Empress's most able commanders simply…disappeared. Leaving her isolated, desperate for able people. You forget, Historian, that before Laseen became Empress, she was close companions with Crust, Urko, Ameron, Dassem and the others. Imagine her now alone, still
feeling the wounds of abandonment."
"And her murder of the other close companions—Kellanved and Dancer—was not something she imagined would affect her friendship with those commanders?" Duiker shook his head, aware of the bitterness in his voice. They were my companions, too.
"Some errors in judgment can never be undone," Bult said. "The Emperor and Dancer were able conquerors, but were they able rulers?" "We'll never know," Duiker snapped. The Wickan's sigh was almost a snort. "No, but if there was one person close to the throne capable of seeing what was to come, it was Laseen."

Sad… I think this schism really was the start of the downfall of the Empire and where shit started to hit the fan… (Referring to the Grub/late Empire reference)


I know one was a consequence of the other but what do you think was the greater cause for the downfall of the Empire… ST/Cots no longer involved or the Old Guard no longer involved…

This post has been edited by champ: 21 February 2020 - 03:51 PM

[Aptorian]

Quote

A lone horn wailed its mournful note. ‘Waiting’s over,’ Chenned said with obvious relief. ‘Save me a patch of grass when you go down, gentlemen.’ Duiker watched the two Seventh captains depart. He’d not heard that particular send-off in a long time. ‘Chenned’s father was in Dassem’s First Sword,’ Lull said. ‘Or so goes the rumour – even when names are swept from official histories, the past shows its face, eh, old man?’

So Chenned's father was in the first sword? Another interesting detail.

[Aptorian]

I'm on page 578 of the Kindle edition and I've run into a timeline curiousity. Icarium and company discover a first empire city that Icarium destroyed long ago. The machine is 94.000 years old. Granted the city may have been destroyed at a much later date but there was a city that worshipped the seven holies then. But we also know from MOI that the first empire or a precursor existed during Kallor's reign roughly 130.000 thousand years ago. And the we have Heboric earlier in the book, where his conpanions shelter in a burried city, remarking that the fruits were a different color 9.000 years ago. Which one assumes was when they city fell to the beast ritual.

At this point I honestly don't have any clue when what happened when. Did the 7 Cities and their rulers exist for a hundred thousand years? Did their memory and religion just get passed along for a hundred thousand years? If so where the hell are they now? Clearly there's still worshippers that should be feeding the idea of their godhood.

[D'rek]

Aptorian, on 22 February 2020 - 04:06 PM, said:

I'm on page 578 of the Kindle edition and I've run into a timeline curiousity. Icarium and company discover a first empire city that Icarium destroyed long ago. The machine is 94.000 years old. Granted the city may have been destroyed at a much later date but there was a city that worshipped the seven holies then. But we also know from MOI that the first empire or a precursor existed during Kallor's reign roughly 130.000 thousand years ago. And the we have Heboric earlier in the book, where his conpanions shelter in a burried city, remarking that the fruits were a different color 9.000 years ago. Which one assumes was when they city fell to the beast ritual.

At this point I honestly don't have any clue when what happened when. Did the 7 Cities and their rulers exist for a hundred thousand years? Did their memory and religion just get passed along for a hundred thousand years? If so where the hell are they now? Clearly there's still worshippers that should be feeding the idea of their godhood.

I think the (Human) First Empire is *usually* referred to as being vaguely in the range of 100,000 years ago, but it's definitely messy like with it supposedly existing alongside Kallor's reign.

Then again, the whole "worshipping the seven holies" thing and having seven holy cities, etc, does seem to have carried on long past the fall of the HFE and even into the "present". There's still seven (different) Holy Cities, each with their "holy" Falah'dan ruler before the Malazan conquest occurred. So lots of references to Holy Cities or Holy Ones or whatever could be after the fall of the First Empire.

Still, it's plenty messy, and one can't help but wonder if the First Empire was really 100,000 years prior shouldn't there be a *ton* of other notable nations/political entities/people/etc from in-between then and now? Imagine if we talked about the people and society of the Roman Empire, but basically nothing between 400 and 1900... only multiply that by 50.

[Aptorian]

P. 744-745

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The train had stretched out, those fleeter of foot slipping ever farther ahead. The elderly surrounded the historian, each step a tortured struggle. Many simply stopped and sat down on the road to await the inevitable. Duiker screamed at them, threatened them, but it was no use. He saw a child, no more than eighteen months old, wandering lost, arms outstretched, dry-eyed and appallingly silent. Duiker rode close, leaned over in his saddle and swept the child into one arm. Tiny hands gripped the torn fragments of his shirt.

Quote

Spotting one guardsman bearing the insignia of a captain, the historian rode up to him. ‘You! Take this child!’ The man reached up to close his hands around the silent, wide-eyed toddler. ‘Are you Duiker?’ the captain asked. ‘Aye.’ ‘You’re to report to the High Fist immediately, sir – there, on the left-hand tower—’ ‘That bastard will have to wait,’ Duiker growled. ‘I will see every damned refugee through first! Now run, Captain, but tell me your name, for there may well be a mother or father still alive for that child.’ ‘Keneb, sir, and I will take care of the lass until then, I swear it.’

Is this the first appearance of Grub?

[Aptorian]

I've reached the last pages and I can't continue reading. Even though I've read it before and know what happens I'm so fucking angry with the nobles and Pormqual and Korbolo Dom.

[JPK]

Bult to Captain Sulmar in chapter 15:

Quote

"You mean they will hasten to relieve us?" Bult's frown was exaggerated. "Now I am confused, Captain. The High First holds his army in Aren. More, he holds the entire Seven Cities fleet as well. Neither has moved in months. He has had countless opportunities to dispatch either force to our aid. Tell me, Captain, in your family's hunting estates, have you ever seen a deer caught in lantern light? How it stands, frozen, unable to do anything. The High Fist is that deer. Coltaine could deliver this train to a place not three miles up the coast from Aren and Pormqual would not set forth to deliver us. Do you truly believe that an even greater plight, such as you envisage for us in Ubaryd, will shame the High Fist into action?"

Jesus, that's not even foreshadowing really. He just straight up tells us exactly what's going to happen outside Aren.