[Gorefest]

Yes, I share that disappointment. It takes away from the epicness more than I think SE and ICE were hoping that it would enhance it. I also experience it the more ICE's Path to Ascendency progressed. Every single bloody (even minor) character that appears in the book somehow needs to be given an 'Oh, hello!' moment. At some point it just goes from neat to ridiculous. You get the feeling that they are hoping that the books will simply float on fans starting to cheer wildly every single time a familiar name is dropped. "That guy is a deckhand. Oh, actually, he is a deckhand with a physical oddity. Oh wait, because of that oddity, now he is getting a nickname. Oh yay, it is that bloke who appeared on page 579 in the bonehunters! And his sister is that mage character from tCG! And their daughter will be the Knight of House Shadow. And their dog is actually one of the Hounds of Light in disguise."

[Traveller]

Agreed. It's like trying to fill in the blanks with backstory, when it was the very absence of information on people that makes the main series so good in the first place.

[champ]

The Hounds...

Paran helps to free the Hounds in Dragnipur, they dive into the Gate of Kurald Galain, somehow reunite with the Deragoth statues we see in HoC(IIRC) and are freed by Onrack (IIRC) when he smashes the statue... then are subsequently slain by Karsa...

Anything more to it? Any ideas or speculation on what the hell goes on for this to happen?!

[Aptorian]

One theory was that the hounds are shadows of the deragoth.

[Traveller]

I haven't read anything after FoD, but I was kind of assuming that when Light came into existence, the Hounds of Shadow were born from the Deragoth - cast by Light as their Shadows. When they go into the gate, they merge back with the statues and reawaken them.

But does that mean the Edur are shadows of the Andii? I'm not clear, or have forgotten, how the races came into being, if its explained at all.

Also, I think Shadowthrone/Cots tells Paran that the Hounds are a 'thousand years old', but that is from GotM..

This post has been edited by Traveller: 29 January 2020 - 04:44 PM

[Gorefest]

Nah, doesn't seem to work that way. At least not according to FoL. Andii and Liosan are just different Tiste factions 'blessed' by different deities. Same will probably turn out for the Edur (a third faction following Scara Bandaris? Or are they maybe coming from the Deniers? Or will the Deniers be the Shake?).

[Traveller]

Ah. Dont know how that explains the link between the hounds then.

I read FoD a while back; is the realm it's set in just a sort of parallel dimension or something that ends up as KG because of Mother Dark? Or something?! I remember being surprised that instead of this other weird realm it had houses and coaches and armies and all the rest of it.

[Abyss]

Re the Hounds, my original theory was that Dessibelackis did experiments on the last Deragoth, 'stole' their shadows and made them into the Hounds, who over time became their own entities and even bred new Hounds. Thus, when Rake sent two Hounds 'souls' into a warren with a gate to primal darkness, those souls once released sought out their original bodies. They got redirected by the idols in the flooded warren, but the instant they were freed the Deragoth reunited with them, just in time to be drawn to the convergence in Raraku and killed by Karsa. The remainder of the Deragoth still want their souls back, hence the pursuit we see in TB. Two things fucked with this theory... Blind's reaction to the Edur in HoC, and Tulas Shorn's comments in TtH, but since all this suggests is a link to Elder Shadow and we know Dessimbelackis was messing with shadow warrens, it's not unworkable. Assume Des was trying to reproduce an experiment which originated with the Edur, possibly with Shorn, and we're good.

That is, til the Kharkanas trilo complicates things even more, but even then, not completely.

As for the Hounds of Light, well, someone (probably the Liosan) made those, or they came into existance as a balance to whatever whoever did to make the Hounds of Shadow. Shorn suggests as much to ST and Dancer in TtH.

[D'rek]

champ, on 29 January 2020 - 04:02 PM, said:

The Hounds...

Paran helps to free the Hounds in Dragnipur, they dive into the Gate of Kurald Galain, somehow reunite with the Deragoth statues we see in HoC(IIRC) and are freed by Onrack (IIRC) when he smashes the statue... then are subsequently slain by Karsa...

Anything more to it? Any ideas or speculation on what the hell goes on for this to happen?!

To recap, in more or less chronological order:

> The Deragoth are an entire species of giant bear-dogs with hundreds, thousands, or more roaming all around Seven Cities. They're so fierce they may be the reason the K'Chain never establish colonies in Seven Cities. (This is from L'oric pseudo-time-traveling in HoC)

> At some point the Deragoth population starts to decline

> At some point, the Tiste Edur Ascendant Kagamandras Tulas Shorn creates the Hounds of Shadow by stealing the shadows of Seven Deragoth. It's really confusing when this is - Onrack says they were around during the T'lan Imass First Empire and the Edur seem to believe they were around before the sundering of Kurald Emurlahn. This is, perhaps, technically possible if the seven Deragoth used to create the Hounds of Shadow lived a really long time, or if the Human First Empire already existed during the T'lan Imass First Empire and before the sundering of Kurald Emurlah, which doesn't seem true but is perhaps technically feasible. (This also brings up a host of other timeline issues, like did more than seven Deragoth survive at this time but Tulas Shorn happened to only make seven Hounds of Shadow? If the Hounds already existed, why didn't the Deragoth chase after their shadows during the time of the HFE?) Unknown whether the Hounds of Light were created at this same time or not.

> The seven Hounds of Shadow become what we know them as - powerful servants of the House of Shadow. Now note there's a big GotMism here, as GotM gives a whole lineage of the "current" Hounds of Shadow and even names an eighth now-deceased one, as if the Hounds are far shorter-lived and not as individually special. But this wouldn't make much sense with their later-given relationship with the Deragoth, unless there was some sort of mechanism where there can only be 7 Hounds alive at a time and they pass the shadows-of-the-Deragoth thing from one to the next, but there's never any allusion to that being a thing.

> In the time of the First Human Empire (vaguely a hundred thousand years before the "present", iirc) there are hardly any left. Dessimbelackis made a "pact" of some sort with the last seven surviving Deragoth. Those seven were then made the first Holy Protectors of the first Seven Holy Cities. At some point, possibly right from the start of the pact, Dessimbelackis tried some magic mojo to make himself and the Seven Deragoth some sort of immortal D'ivers (it is speculated by some characters that this was to achieve immortality, but Dessimbelackis had already lived for a long ass time, created T'rohlbarahl, enacted the Beast Ritual, and done all sorts of other stuff so he's probably already a nigh-immortal Ascendant at this point and there's more to it than just that).

> The Human First Empire collapses due to a combination of new Soletaken rituals gone awry (creating the D'ivers), T'lan Imass attack(s), Nameless Ones conspiracy, and internal strife. Rebel forces spring up and most of the (Deragoth) Holy Protectors are defeated somehow (implication is that at least 5 of them were killed, but it's not 100% confirmed).

> At some point, someone built seven enormous statues of the seven Holy Protector Deragoth in the Nascent (or else built them somewhere else and moved them there). This could have been before the fall of the First Human Empire, or tens of thousands of years later, who knows.

> It's never really explained why, but by the time of the books these statues more or less contain the Seven's souls, or something like that. One plausible theory would be that these statues were made by Dessimbelackis and were a part of making his pact with the Deragoth, or perhaps a safeguard mechanism he created for them/himself at some point. But it could also be a completely unrelated thing, like maybe the Seven all survived the fall of the HFE somehow and were later found by Tulas Shorn who created and used the statues. We don't know. In any case, the defeated Seven Deragoth are somehow kept within the statues in a dormant state. It's also worth noting that the place where the statues are located in The Nascent is very close (or ends up becoming very close) to Verdith'anath, the Jaghut underworld... maybe that ties into the status keeping the Deragoth from dying or something.

> Fast forward to the "present" and Rake kills two Hounds of Shadow with Dragnipur during GotM.

> Ganoes Paran goes into Dragnipur and leads the two Hounds of Shadow that Rake 'killed' into the Gate of Darkness. Those Hounds are never seen again, and henceforth two of the Deragoth statues in the Nascent are no longer "dormant".

> Onrack and Trull find the statues of the Seven in The Nascent. Onrack notes that two of them are "alive" or active or whatever. I forget what triggers it exactly, but those two active statues explode and out come the two Deragoth alive and well. They attack Onrack then run off.

> The two alive Deragoth end up in Raraku at the night all hell is breaking loose in Sha'ik's camp. They kill a bunch of people and eventually get killed by Karsa Orlong.

> Ganoes Paran and Hedge travel to the remaining five statues and blow them up with Moranth munitions (because Ganoes wants to use the Deragoth to kill Dejim Nebrahl).
They also notice a temple at the statues where a wide-footed people have apparently been worshipping the statues, but as far as we know this didn't affect anything (the wide-footed people are probably the same squat race of people that Trull earlier found a city of in The Nascent but they were all dead). Out come the other five Deragoth, who immediately start hunting after the five remaining Hounds of Shadow. The Hounds of Shadow lead the Deragoth into attacking Dejim Nebrahl and also Poliel 'cause why not.

> More stuff happens later but it's not important here




I'd speculate that when Tulas Shorn took the "shadows" of the seven Deragoth, it's basically the same as he took part of their souls and added new bodies made of shadow. It makes sense that the Deragoth would want to take back the missing pieces of their souls, and furthermore makes sense that when a Deragoth and it's equivalent Hound are reunited the Hound part of the soul goes back into the Deragoth and not vice versa.

When Rake kills Doan and Ganrod, their souls - that is, their piece-of-a-Deragoth-soul - goes into Dragnipur like any other creature killed by Dragnipur.

Why can they go through the Gate of Darkness? Eh, I guess because it was Tiste magic mojo used on them to wrest them from the Deragoth in the first place, so it's like they *are* made of Tiste magic.

Once they do go through the Gate of Galain, well who knows where they end up on the other side but they still have no bodies at that point, they're just incorporeal pieces of Deragoth soul, much like Hedge was in BH/RG. And I think it makes sense that an unanchored piece of Deragoth soul no longer wrapped up in the shadow bodies Tulas Shorn made would simply go and reunite with their original half, hence going back into the statues.

Though the only difference it really ends up making is that the two "alive/reunited" Deragoth break out of their statues a lot earlier. If I remember that scene correctly, they kind of do it on their own, as opposed to the other five that need Hedge to actually blow up the statues.

There's also all the hubbaloo about Dessimbelackis. For all the mentions that he tried to soul-shift with the Deragoth or who knows what, it doesn't seem to have done anything and there's never any hint that he's still alive in some form within them. And he was already a crazypants immortal or nigh-immortal sole emperor of a globe-spanning empire who makes giant world-altering rituals in his spare time, so it hardly seems like he had much need to do that soul shifty with them.

Biggest thing I don't like is the references by Onrack and the MT Edur to the Hounds being so old. If it weren't for that, I'd posit that Mr Kagamandras Tulas Shorn is a sneaky boy who created the Hounds of Shadow during the time of the HFE by sabotaging Dessimbelackis' ritual so that it did nothing for Dessimbelackis and Tulas stole the Deragoth souls for himself instead, which would {a} be awesome, and {b} explain why nothing ever comes out of all those Dessimbelackis soul-shifty hints.

[Abyss]

All accurate and duly nebulous.

And to further complicate things... Garath...

Quote

He gestured. ‘Garath, your pup. He could be a Hound of Shadow—’

‘He could be indeed,’ she smiled. ‘I believe, however, that he is reluctant.’

[Gorefest]

Ah, yes, but nobody is mentioning the Jheleck hostages who are supervised by Tulas and who have the names of the Hounds....seems pretty obvious, surely?

Unless we assume that Tulas bound them somehow to the Deragoth? To bind their 'dog' nature and make them unable to turn back to their 'human' form?

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 29 January 2020 - 07:27 PM

[champ]

This is the kind of debate I was hoping for after that post, some awesome points all around... it's clear that there isn't enough solid evidence - so far - for a definitive answer but enough for some great speculation...


If Tulas Shorn pulled off your Master Plan, D'rek, then that would be of epic proportions. That had me laughing.


With Dessimbelackis I just always presumed that if his Deragoth mojo jojo came off he became lost to the beast over time and that is why we never really hear much about him after all the shiznit went down.


I had forgot about the temple at the statues, it makes me wonder if they were more than just statues due to the worship that went on there at the location.... or it could be that worship went on there because the statues were more than just statues... yeah...


On an aside but kind of relevant, there is the question of how Paran becomes what he does after he comes into contact with the Hound's blood, how much of that was the grand design for Paran becoming the Master of the Deck and how much of it was just down to the Hounds blood... we see what dragon blood can do after all...

This post has been edited by champ: 29 January 2020 - 07:46 PM

[Abyss]

Gorefest, on 29 January 2020 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ah, yes, but nobody is mentioning the Jheleck hostages who are supervised by Tulas and who have the names of the Hounds....seems pretty obvious, surely?

Unless we assume that Tulas bound them somehow to the Deragoth? To bind their 'dog' nature and make them unable to turn back to their 'human' form?

I couldn't remember the word 'Jheleck'


There's a link there, but it could go a few ways. By example, maybe Shorn didn't experiment on his child hostages (because he's just not that bad a guy in the KT so far), but some time later he does name 'his' Hounds after them.


Blanking on whether the Deragoth are ever mentioned in the KT. Anyone recall?

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 29 January 2020 - 07:52 PM, said:

Blanking on whether the Deragoth are ever mentioned in the KT. Anyone recall?

Considering even the name "Deragoth" is made up by L'oric a bajillion years later... god I hope not

[Macros]

You.......nerds

[Abyss]

Macros, on 30 January 2020 - 03:13 PM, said:

You.......nerds

MALAZAN nerds, pleb.

[JPK]

Boom! Finished. Not even on the last day.

I was talking with my wife last night and realized yet again how difficult it is to describe certain events in this series to people that aren't in the know.

"You see, there's this really badass dark-elf like guy that is essentially a demigod that carries a special sword that has it's own universe inside of it. In that universe, there's this wagon piled high with broken bodies, and that universe is slowly consumed by elemental chaos. The badass with the sword kills people with the sword and magically chains them to this wagon to have them pull it away from the advancing chaos because if the chaos reaches the cart the real universe will end too."

"Babe, you read some really weird stuff."

"Yeah, and this is just book 1 territory!"

This post has been edited by JPK: 30 January 2020 - 06:00 PM

[Abyss]

JPK, on 30 January 2020 - 05:57 PM, said:

Boom! Finished. Not even on the last day.

I was talking with my wife last night and realized yet again how difficult it is to describe certain events in this series to people that aren't in the know.

"You see, there's this really badass dark-elf like guy that is essentially a demigod that carries a special sword that has it's own universe inside of it. In that universe, there's this wagon piled high with broken bodies, and that universe is slowly consumed by elemental chaos. The badass with the sword kills people with the sword and magically chains them to this wagon to have them pull it away from the advancing chaos because if the chaos reaches the cart the real universe will end too."

"Babe, you read some really weird stuff."

"Yeah, and this is just book 1 territory!"

Dragnipur and related events are the single hardest thing to explain in this series.


...and that's saying A LOT re a series that has giant dogs, shapeshifting dragons, zombie neanderthals, smallish t-rexs flying around in helicopters....

[Traveller]

Don't forget the whole Mhybe/new warren refuge/togg/fanderay/beast throne/Toc/Matron... situation in MoI.

A workmate has just reached that part, and it's not easily explained!

[Keysi]

Gorefest, on 29 January 2020 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ah, yes, but nobody is mentioning the Jheleck hostages who are supervised by Tulas and who have the names of the Hounds....seems pretty obvious, surely?

Unless we assume that Tulas bound them somehow to the Deragoth? To bind their 'dog' nature and make them unable to turn back to their 'human' form?

Yea I was gonna mention this. I thought this was the most plausible hound origins.