[Abyss]

D, on 22 January 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 21 January 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

The fact that he was once a High-Priest of shadow is interesting.

I don't really want to know his background or who all his souls are but Delat the man, must have been formidable in his own right one assumes. And somewhat familiar with Kel and Dancer, maybe? At least in their official religious roles? Or was it a rivalry? Quon Tali shadow cults versus 7C? Shit, imagine an Esslemont prequel book where Quick Ben is a character opposing the Malazan invasion of 7C.

Abyss, on 21 January 2020 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest involvement with Kellanved and Dancer pre Raraku and the Bridgeburners... tho we don't know about all his souls.

There's obviously a lot to QB and since the first two KT books multiple peple have raised the suggestion he's descended from an Azathanii.

The other big info pointing towards Delat being formerly very involved with Kel/Dancer and the Shadow Priesthood that I can remember is Lostara Yil remembering her time spent as a Shadow Dancer in Bidithal's chapter of the Shadow/Rashan Cult/Religion. Delat and Dancer infiltrated that chapter of the cult and assassinated almost everyone, with Delat having gotten in either by impersonating a High Priest or else by *being* a High Priest of the cult.

I thought that happened AFTER Raraku.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 21 January 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

The fact that he was once a High-Priest of shadow is interesting.

I don't really want to know his background or who all his souls are but Delat the man, must have been formidable in his own right one assumes. And somewhat familiar with Kel and Dancer, maybe? At least in their official religious roles? Or was it a rivalry? Quon Tali shadow cults versus 7C? Shit, imagine an Esslemont prequel book where Quick Ben is a character opposing the Malazan invasion of 7C.

Abyss, on 21 January 2020 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest involvement with Kellanved and Dancer pre Raraku and the Bridgeburners... tho we don't know about all his souls.

There's obviously a lot to QB and since the first two KT books multiple peple have raised the suggestion he's descended from an Azathanii.

The other big info pointing towards Delat being formerly very involved with Kel/Dancer and the Shadow Priesthood that I can remember is Lostara Yil remembering her time spent as a Shadow Dancer in Bidithal's chapter of the Shadow/Rashan Cult/Religion. Delat and Dancer infiltrated that chapter of the cult and assassinated almost everyone, with Delat having gotten in either by impersonating a High Priest or else by *being* a High Priest of the cult.

I thought that happened AFTER Raraku.

There's a lot of {things that happened in} Rarakus. Which do you mean?

[Abyss]

D, on 22 January 2020 - 08:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 21 January 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

The fact that he was once a High-Priest of shadow is interesting.

I don't really want to know his background or who all his souls are but Delat the man, must have been formidable in his own right one assumes. And somewhat familiar with Kel and Dancer, maybe? At least in their official religious roles? Or was it a rivalry? Quon Tali shadow cults versus 7C? Shit, imagine an Esslemont prequel book where Quick Ben is a character opposing the Malazan invasion of 7C.

Abyss, on 21 January 2020 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest involvement with Kellanved and Dancer pre Raraku and the Bridgeburners... tho we don't know about all his souls.

There's obviously a lot to QB and since the first two KT books multiple peple have raised the suggestion he's descended from an Azathanii.

The other big info pointing towards Delat being formerly very involved with Kel/Dancer and the Shadow Priesthood that I can remember is Lostara Yil remembering her time spent as a Shadow Dancer in Bidithal's chapter of the Shadow/Rashan Cult/Religion. Delat and Dancer infiltrated that chapter of the cult and assassinated almost everyone, with Delat having gotten in either by impersonating a High Priest or else by *being* a High Priest of the cult.

I thought that happened AFTER Raraku.

There's a lot of {things that happened in} Rarakus. Which do you mean?

I mean that QB's association with the Malazan Empire starts when he joins the BBs. Apt was commenting on possible association between QB or any of his souls with Kel & co. before then.

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 08:15 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 06:27 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 04:27 PM, said:

Aptorian, on 21 January 2020 - 02:56 PM, said:

The fact that he was once a High-Priest of shadow is interesting.

I don't really want to know his background or who all his souls are but Delat the man, must have been formidable in his own right one assumes. And somewhat familiar with Kel and Dancer, maybe? At least in their official religious roles? Or was it a rivalry? Quon Tali shadow cults versus 7C? Shit, imagine an Esslemont prequel book where Quick Ben is a character opposing the Malazan invasion of 7C.

Abyss, on 21 January 2020 - 04:09 PM, said:

I don't think we've seen anything to suggest involvement with Kellanved and Dancer pre Raraku and the Bridgeburners... tho we don't know about all his souls.

There's obviously a lot to QB and since the first two KT books multiple peple have raised the suggestion he's descended from an Azathanii.

The other big info pointing towards Delat being formerly very involved with Kel/Dancer and the Shadow Priesthood that I can remember is Lostara Yil remembering her time spent as a Shadow Dancer in Bidithal's chapter of the Shadow/Rashan Cult/Religion. Delat and Dancer infiltrated that chapter of the cult and assassinated almost everyone, with Delat having gotten in either by impersonating a High Priest or else by *being* a High Priest of the cult.

I thought that happened AFTER Raraku.

There's a lot of {things that happened in} Rarakus. Which do you mean?

I mean that QB's association with the Malazan Empire starts when he joins the BBs. Apt was commenting on possible association between QB or any of his souls with Kel & co. before then.

Ah, yeah. Whatever history we know of QB up until the forging of the Bridgeburners never has him working with the Empire or specifically tied to anything in the various religious/assassin/mage organizations affiliated with Shadow/Rashan/Meanas, though he is known as a mage of Meanas, and likewise for the two other Meanas/Rashan mages that were part of his cabal.

His sister Torahaval does eventually get wrapped up in the Rashan religion, too, so it wouldn't be unexpected for him to have had some dealings with them before he joined the Bridgeburners. But then again the Rashan religion/cult is pretty active across Seven Cities, even if Quick Ben was never part of it prior to that it wouldn't be all that unusual for his sister to have gotten tied up with it for reasons completely unrelated to him.

All the temple assassinations, doing stuff in the upper ranks of the shadow priesthood, etc, I see as having occurred after the formation of the Bridgeburners and before the "deaths" of Kellanved/Dancer. There was a lot of preemptive and post-emptive rebellion-quashing in Seven Cities in that time, so I imagine targeting parts of the Rashan cult that were planning rebellion was a two-birds-with-one-stone sort of thing where it helped the Empire domestically as well as helped Kellanved et al consolidate power over Shadow politics.

Then K&D become ST&C, QB fakes his death as Rool the Rude (uncertain if this actually made ST think he was dead) and goes into hiding with WJ et al as a squad mage that occasionally casually uses Kurald Galain in front of Tattersail :hmm:

[Abyss]

Keysi, on 22 January 2020 - 11:22 AM, said:

...

Page 430 of the paperback version I reading, Whiskykack having an inner monologue"To Whiskyjack's mind, Hedge and Fiddler were terrible soldiers"

I always read that as an ironic statement and/or a GotMism.
It's apparent from pretty much everything else we see even in just GotM that while they're nuts and unconventional, they're both VERY good sappers and in a fight.
DG goes one further and pretty much throws away any notion of Fid as anything but extremely competent, and by the end of the series they're both leaders, survivors, and borderline ascendents, tho i ack most of Hedge's development is post-mortem after MoI, but in DoD he pretty much saves half the Letherii force from the Nahruk by taking his Bridgeburners sideways into the fight.

[Abyss]

D, on 22 January 2020 - 09:19 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

...

I mean that QB's association with the Malazan Empire starts when he joins the BBs. Apt was commenting on possible association between QB or any of his souls with Kel & co. before then.

...
All the temple assassinations, doing stuff in the upper ranks of the shadow priesthood, etc, I see as having occurred after the formation of the Bridgeburners and before the "deaths" of Kellanved/Dancer. There was a lot of preemptive and post-emptive rebellion-quashing in Seven Cities in that time, so I imagine targeting parts of the Rashan cult that were planning rebellion was a two-birds-with-one-stone sort of thing where it helped the Empire domestically as well as helped Kellanved et al consolidate power over Shadow politics.

Then K&D become ST&C, QB fakes his death as Rool the Rude (uncertain if this actually made ST think he was dead) and goes into hiding with WJ et al as a squad mage that occasionally casually uses Kurald Galain in front of Tattersail :hmm:

We're on the same ground then re his involvement w the Empire.

His Rule the Rude guise was parallel to his BB time...

Spoiler

‘Welcome, High Fist,’ Quick Ben said, straightening, adding a slightly deferential bow to Tayschrenn. ‘Colleague…’

Tayschrenn’s thin, almost hairless brows rose. ‘A field promotion, wasn’t it? Well, perhaps long overdue. Nonetheless, I do not believe the Empress has sanctioned that title as yet.’

Quick Ben offered him a broad, white smile. ‘Do you recall, High Mage, a certain other High Mage, sent by the Emperor, early on in the Blackdog Campaign? Kribalah Rule?’

‘Rule the Rude? Yes, he died after a month or so—’

‘In a horrible conflagration, aye. Well, that was me. Thus, I’ve been a High Mage before, colleague…’

Tayschrenn was frowning, clearly thinking back, then the frown became a scowl. ‘And the Emperor knew this? He must have, having sent you – unless, of course, he didn’t send you at all.’

‘Well, granted, there were some improprieties involved, and had one set out on that particular trail they might well have been noted. But you did not feel the need to do so, evidently, since, although briefly, I more than held my own – pulling you out of trouble once, I seem to recall…something about Tiste Andii assassin-mages—’

‘When I lost a certain object containing a demon lord…’

‘You did? Sorry to hear that.’

‘The same demon that later died by Rake’s sword in Darujhistan.’

‘Oh, how unfortunate.’

[Abyss]

Bachelor King, on 23 January 2020 - 06:45 PM, said:

Bout goddamn time she brought that water up.

BK, you do know there's a whole other subforum for TCG, yes? ...one where your ongoing posts about that would be on point and relevant?

[D'rek]

Abyss, on 23 January 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 09:19 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

...

I mean that QB's association with the Malazan Empire starts when he joins the BBs. Apt was commenting on possible association between QB or any of his souls with Kel & co. before then.

...
All the temple assassinations, doing stuff in the upper ranks of the shadow priesthood, etc, I see as having occurred after the formation of the Bridgeburners and before the "deaths" of Kellanved/Dancer. There was a lot of preemptive and post-emptive rebellion-quashing in Seven Cities in that time, so I imagine targeting parts of the Rashan cult that were planning rebellion was a two-birds-with-one-stone sort of thing where it helped the Empire domestically as well as helped Kellanved et al consolidate power over Shadow politics.

Then K&D become ST&C, QB fakes his death as Rool the Rude (uncertain if this actually made ST think he was dead) and goes into hiding with WJ et al as a squad mage that occasionally casually uses Kurald Galain in front of Tattersail :hmm:

We're on the same ground then re his involvement w the Empire.

His Rule the Rude guise was parallel to his BB time...

Everything after the BB walk through Raraku up until the end of House of Chains would be parallel to his BB time, no?

[Traveller]

Abyss, on 23 January 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

D, on 22 January 2020 - 09:19 PM, said:

Abyss, on 22 January 2020 - 08:21 PM, said:

...

I mean that QB's association with the Malazan Empire starts when he joins the BBs. Apt was commenting on possible association between QB or any of his souls with Kel & co. before then.

...
All the temple assassinations, doing stuff in the upper ranks of the shadow priesthood, etc, I see as having occurred after the formation of the Bridgeburners and before the "deaths" of Kellanved/Dancer. There was a lot of preemptive and post-emptive rebellion-quashing in Seven Cities in that time, so I imagine targeting parts of the Rashan cult that were planning rebellion was a two-birds-with-one-stone sort of thing where it helped the Empire domestically as well as helped Kellanved et al consolidate power over Shadow politics.

Then K&D become ST&C, QB fakes his death as Rool the Rude (uncertain if this actually made ST think he was dead) and goes into hiding with WJ et al as a squad mage that occasionally casually uses Kurald Galain in front of Tattersail :hmm:

We're on the same ground then re his involvement w the Empire.

His Rule the Rude guise was parallel to his BB time...

Spoiler

‘Welcome, High Fist,’ Quick Ben said, straightening, adding a slightly deferential bow to Tayschrenn. ‘Colleague…’

Tayschrenn’s thin, almost hairless brows rose. ‘A field promotion, wasn’t it? Well, perhaps long overdue. Nonetheless, I do not believe the Empress has sanctioned that title as yet.’

Quick Ben offered him a broad, white smile. ‘Do you recall, High Mage, a certain other High Mage, sent by the Emperor, early on in the Blackdog Campaign? Kribalah Rule?’

‘Rule the Rude? Yes, he died after a month or so—’

‘In a horrible conflagration, aye. Well, that was me. Thus, I’ve been a High Mage before, colleague…’

Tayschrenn was frowning, clearly thinking back, then the frown became a scowl. ‘And the Emperor knew this? He must have, having sent you – unless, of course, he didn’t send you at all.’

‘Well, granted, there were some improprieties involved, and had one set out on that particular trail they might well have been noted. But you did not feel the need to do so, evidently, since, although briefly, I more than held my own – pulling you out of trouble once, I seem to recall…something about Tiste Andii assassin-mages—’

‘When I lost a certain object containing a demon lord…’

‘You did? Sorry to hear that.’

‘The same demon that later died by Rake’s sword in Darujhistan.’

‘Oh, how unfortunate.’

Where's the spoilered bit from?

[Abyss]

D, on 23 January 2020 - 07:34 PM, said:

Abyss, on 23 January 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

...
His Rule the Rude guise was parallel to his BB time...

Everything after the BB walk through Raraku up until the end of House of Chains would be parallel to his BB time, no?

The BBs cease to exist as a unit at the end of MoI but he's still working for the Empire until Tavore splits from Laseen at the end of TB and ST tosses QB at Icarium.
The relevant timeline would seem to be from BBs forming in Raraku until the debacle at Pale, which is also when Blackdog happened. Iirc all we really know about that is that the BBs were bogged down in ugly ongoing fighting for a while. It would appear that QB ran a separate con as Rule at the same time.

Traveller, on 23 January 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

...
Where's the spoilered bit from?

TB Chapter 2. I searched for 'the Rude' in my collected ed.

[Traveller]

Abyss, on 23 January 2020 - 08:37 PM, said:

D, on 23 January 2020 - 07:34 PM, said:

Abyss, on 23 January 2020 - 04:37 PM, said:

...
His Rule the Rude guise was parallel to his BB time...

Everything after the BB walk through Raraku up until the end of House of Chains would be parallel to his BB time, no?

The BBs cease to exist as a unit at the end of MoI but he's still working for the Empire until Tavore splits from Laseen at the end of TB and ST tosses QB at Icarium.
The relevant timeline would seem to be from BBs forming in Raraku until the debacle at Pale, which is also when Blackdog happened. Iirc all we really know about that is that the BBs were bogged down in ugly ongoing fighting for a while. It would appear that QB ran a separate con as Rule at the same time.

Traveller, on 23 January 2020 - 08:27 PM, said:

...
Where's the spoilered bit from?

TB Chapter 2. I searched for 'the Rude' in my collected ed.

Well, shiit. Guess it is time for a reread, I didn't remember that convo at all.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Quote

The other laughed softly and beckoned Kruppe to the fire. "I seek sensation once again," it said, "but my hands feel nothing. To be worshipped is to feel the supplicants pain. I fear my followers are no more."

Kruppe was silent. He did not like the somber mood of this dream. He held his hands before the fire yet felt little heat. A chill ache had settled into his knees. Finally he looked over the flames to the hooded figure opposite him. "Kruppe thinks you are an Elder God. Have you a name?"

That's quite a deductive leap from Kruppe. Far longer than his short legs could ever carry him in one bound.

[Aptorian]

First of all dream logic and your inherent knowledge is often strange and absolute. Second of all, it's Kruppe. He's is extremely clever, has a deck of dragons in his head and probably knows every modern deity and it's flavor.

[Aptorian]

Finished GOTM last night. Can't believe it took me most of a month to get through the book but I was busy.

I think it more than holds up. The level of world building and the layers and layers of plot and story lines is still a monumental achievement.

It is was jarring to constantly bump into GOTMisms, like this and that is a thousand years old, motives being very different in later books, Baruk who we know is probably 10-100,000+ years old doesn't remember Icarium building a machine in his city a thousand years ago, nobody seems to know who and what Rake and Brood are, Raest being utterly unkillable when we see plenty of powerful ascendants and gods later on dying pretty simply, etc.

I also thought that it was pretty out of left field to have Rake fight a previously unmentioned bottled demon as the finale, instead of him locking up with Raest.

But that aside it's an extremely enjoyable fantasy book.

And next week it's Deadhouse Gates. The second best Malazan Book?

This post has been edited by Aptorian: 26 January 2020 - 07:43 AM

[D'rek]

I'm still not done it... oof

Aptorian, on 26 January 2020 - 07:43 AM, said:

It is was jarring to constantly bump into GOTMisms, like this and that is a thousand years old, motives being very different in later books, Baruk who we know is probably 10-100,000+ years old doesn't remember Icarium building a machine in his city a thousand years ago, nobody seems to know who and what Rake and Brood are, Raest being utterly unkillable when we see plenty of powerful ascendants and gods later on dying pretty simply, etc.

IMO, one of Erikson's (and Esslemont's) worst habits has been to retcon in later books far too many characters into being much older (and usually therefore a "bigger deal") than they were when first introduced. I can remember when only the books up to Midnight Tides were out and one of the things we fans loved and talked about tons and tons was how any ordinary person/mage/whatever can take down an Elder God in the right circumstances, and such. It felt almost like a running theme through the first few. And while it's not technically *untrue*, it then later turned out that so, so many of the seemingly-young-but-smart characters from the first few books were themselves old or Elder beings.

[Traveller]

Really, who? Could you put a couple in spoilers? I just didnt get on with Cams books for mostly this reason - his writing of SEs characters is too at odds with the main series.

I read up to OST iirc, nothing of his after that, and I'm still not sure I'll bother.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 27 January 2020 - 06:32 AM

[Aptorian]

For what it's worth, while I agree that none of the Crimon Guard centric books are great, Esslemont improves with every book.

The latest prequel books he's written are a great and entertaining take on the beginning of the Malazan Empire. They're a bit too rushed and YA in places but they've got a terrific pace.

[Traveller]

See I'd like to read them because I'm interested in that time, but I think the discrepencies and the fundamental difference that is someone else writing the world will put me off. I know its their shared world and all but you can't get around the fact that the way it is written is what makes it what it is, not the names and places.

[champ]

I am quite a way behind the reread unfortunately but January was always going to be a busy month for me… The below is just a few quotations that stood out to me whilst reading…



Couple of points with the below quotation:

Quote

A blossoming of power filled the room and Tattersail spun to face Quick Ben. The wizard had accessed his Warren. The sorcery bled a strange, swirling flavor that she could not recognize, and it frightened her with its intensity. She met the black man's shining eyes. "I should know you," she whispered. "There's not enough true masters in this world for me to not know you. Who are you, Quick Ben?'

Another hint to what QB is really capable of with this cool line, another teaser that he could be more than meets the eye.

This is the scene just after Sorry knifed Paran too and we see a hint towards Fiddlers "intuition" that he has throughout the series.

Quote

The other agreed. "You felt the parting too, then." "An Ascendant . . . meddled. Too cautious to show itself fully, however." "Unfortunate. It's been years since I last killed an Ascendant.

Seriously, how epic is the Crokus chase scene across the rooftops and this little line gives you an oh-shit moment as to the power they possess/the people chasing Crokus.

Quote

Perhaps. If so, then the Child Gods have made a grave error. After all," a ghastly smile seemed to come into his tone, "I will lose a battle. But I will not die." K'rul turned away from the fire then. His voice drifted back to Kruppe. "Play on, mortal. Every god falls at a mortal's hands. Such is the only end to immortality."
The Elder God's wistfulness was not lost on Kruppe. He suspected that a great truth had been revealed to him with those final words, a truth he was now given leave to use. "And use it Kruppe shall," he whispered.

The theme we see at the start of the series with how vulnerable Gods can be to mere mortals… (just noted D'rek speaks about it above)

Quote

The red ink had been watered down. He painted wash on the map, covering the areas now held by the Malazan Empire. Fully one half of the map—the north half—was red. A small clear strip just south of Blackdog Forest marked Caladan Brood's forces, flanked on either side by two smaller patches indicating the Crimson Guard. The red wash surrounded these clear spots and extended down to engulf Pale, ending on the north edge of the Tahlyn Mountains. The street noises had become quite loud, Baruk noted, as he leaned close to the map to paint the red tide's southern border. Construction work, he concluded, hearing the squeal of winches and a voice bellowing at passers-by. The sounds died away, then there came a loud crack! Baruk jumped, his right forearm jerking out and knocking over the inkwell. The red ink poured across his map. Cursing, Baruk sat back. His eyes widened as he watched the spreading stain cover Darujhistan and continue south to Catlin. He stepped down from the stool, reaching for a cloth to wipe his hands, more than a little shaken by what could easily be taken as an omen. He walked across the chamber to the window, bent forward and looked down. A crew of workers was busy tearing up the street directly below. Two burly men swung picks while three others formed a line passing the shattered cobblestones to a growing pile on the pavement. The foreman stood nearby, his back to a wagon, studying a parchment scroll. Baruk frowned. "Who's in charge of road maintenance?" he wondered aloud.

…

Baruk glanced at the window. "Unfortunately," he said, "the air outside my window has become rather dusty." Kruppe paused. His arms returned to his sides, then he reached into a sleeve and withdrew his handkerchief. He patted his brow. "Ah, yes, the road workers. Kruppe passed them on his way in. A rather belligerent lot, thinks Kruppe. Indeed, rude, but hardly exceptional for such menial laborers."

The above is such a clever passage… how we see the ink spread out across the map when Baruk's attention turns towards the road workers and the BB. Then we have the word play with Kruppe and the "belligerent lot" outside. Just a great piece of writing.

[D'rek]

Traveller, on 27 January 2020 - 06:32 AM, said:

Really, who? Could you put a couple in spoilers? I just didnt get on with Cams books for mostly this reason - his writing of SEs characters is too at odds with the main series.

Oh, you know. Quick Ben has some sort of Elder soul and he talks to Mother Dark, knows Draconus personally, etc. Fiddler isn't just a great sapper, he's an 80-year old-but-young-because-Raraku Old Guard member and the most powerful Deck of Dragons reader in the world with magic intuition that comes with that. Ameron can't be just a naval commander, he turns out to be former head of the Talon too why not, and so was Hawl why not.

Caladan Brood had a perfectly reasonable setup - ordinary man gets strong and involved in gods/religion/whatever, becomes Burn's champion and gets her hammer, is now a human or perhaps Rhivi-grown Ascendant and has been around for a thousand years or so. Perfect. Oh wait no, now he's an Azathenai. Same for Lady Envy, Tulas Shorn, Olar Ethil, etc, once you hit the Kharkanas trilogy there's hardly any "normal" Ascendants left and basically every character either comes from before the Tiste split or else was part of the Old Guard.