Malazan Empire: Steven Erikson's petty resentment of dragons - Malazan Empire

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Steven Erikson's petty resentment of dragons

#1 User is offline   MattK3 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:53 AM

Steven Erikson is no stranger, despite his pretense of universal fairness or understanding, to sowing or implying petty, irrational resentments here and there. And I think dragons in general might be his most high-status target. Whenever dragons appear, he wrecks them brutally and with apparent relish - even if it's a transformed character he otherwise appears to like, and he badmouths them at every turn in the pettiest, most irrational, irrelevant manner. For example in Toll The Hounds he speaks about Silanah in a retrospective through the thoughts of another character as the worst thing that dragon has done (just aside from fighting on behalf of Anomander Rake, which of course is good, and getting wrecked, but whatever...): "Five Soletaken Tiste Andii whirling round her like crows escorting an eagle." (Silanah fleeing from the Jaghut Tyrant after being brutally wrecked.)


This image, of utterly irrelevant pettiness about the juxtaposition of the protected dragon (wrecked badly) and Tiste Andii (serving), is supposed to evoke the worst sentiments of anything that happens in the book series EVER! (Almost anything else can be talked about.) And I bet Erikson just forgot his gnashing of teeth over those Soletaken Almost-dragons (grrrgh!) by way of priority.
Aside from the irrational hate of dragons, which is absurd and rather annoying enough, one can't ignore how unbelievable LOW Erikson regularly gets, even if one is ready to admire him for all his other achievements and depth...

This post has been edited by MattK3: 20 November 2019 - 03:24 AM

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#2 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 04:27 AM

Counterpoint:

Anomander and the demon lord in GotM.
Olar Ethil in DG, rescuing the ship and guarding the Path of Hands.
MoI, Orfantal flying alone to defend the army against the condors.
Silchas and the rest of his Storm flying to the Otataral Dragon's aid in TCG.


...also, none of it is 'petty', it's storytelling.
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#3 User is offline   bubba 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 01:54 PM

Countercounterpoint...
"Fucking Dragons"

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#4 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 02:18 PM

Can I just ask why the OP has such a hatred for Erikson/Malazan? In pretty much every post from the OP that I've come across over the past year or so he is dissing SE or ICE, or criticising the series in some way. Now, don't get me wrong, a bit of healthy discussion is always a good thing on a forum, but why such open hatred all the time and why spend so much time and effort on shooting down something that you clearly don't like on a platform where most people really enjoy the series? Why bother?
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#5 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 03:11 PM

 Abyss, on 20 November 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

Counterpoint:

Anomander and the demon lord in GotM.
Olar Ethil in DG, rescuing the ship and guarding the Path of Hands.
MoI, Orfantal flying alone to defend the army against the condors.
Silchas and the rest of his Storm flying to the Otataral Dragon's aid in TCG.


...also, none of it is 'petty', it's storytelling.



 Uncle Bubba, on 20 November 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

Countercounterpoint...
"Fucking Dragons"


I see precisely zero contradiction between my point and one of the greatest lines in the entire extended series.


 Gorefest, on 20 November 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

Can I just ask why the OP has such a hatred for Erikson/Malazan? In pretty much every post from the OP that I've come across over the past year or so he is dissing SE or ICE, or criticising the series in some way. Now, don't get me wrong, a bit of healthy discussion is always a good thing on a forum, but why such open hatred all the time and why spend so much time and effort on shooting down something that you clearly don't like on a platform where most people really enjoy the series? Why bother?


Mal is bored.
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#6 User is offline   bubba 

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Posted 20 November 2019 - 03:34 PM

 Abyss, on 20 November 2019 - 03:11 PM, said:

 Abyss, on 20 November 2019 - 04:27 AM, said:

Counterpoint:

Anomander and the demon lord in GotM.
Olar Ethil in DG, rescuing the ship and guarding the Path of Hands.
MoI, Orfantal flying alone to defend the army against the condors.
Silchas and the rest of his Storm flying to the Otataral Dragon's aid in TCG.


...also, none of it is 'petty', it's storytelling.



 Uncle Bubba, on 20 November 2019 - 01:54 PM, said:

Countercounterpoint...
"Fucking Dragons"


I see precisely zero contradiction between my point and one of the greatest lines in the entire extended series.


 Gorefest, on 20 November 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

Can I just ask why the OP has such a hatred for Erikson/Malazan? In pretty much every post from the OP that I've come across over the past year or so he is dissing SE or ICE, or criticising the series in some way. Now, don't get me wrong, a bit of healthy discussion is always a good thing on a forum, but why such open hatred all the time and why spend so much time and effort on shooting down something that you clearly don't like on a platform where most people really enjoy the series? Why bother?


Mal is bored.


....Or on the loose again

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#7 User is offline   Puck 

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 10:56 AM

This ain't Mal. Also, this:

 Gorefest, on 20 November 2019 - 02:18 PM, said:

Can I just ask why the OP has such a hatred for Erikson/Malazan? In pretty much every post from the OP that I've come across over the past year or so he is dissing SE or ICE, or criticising the series in some way. Now, don't get me wrong, a bit of healthy discussion is always a good thing on a forum, but why such open hatred all the time and why spend so much time and effort on shooting down something that you clearly don't like on a platform where most people really enjoy the series? Why bother?


Don't like it, don't read it. I've never understood this obsession some people have with bashing something and keeping torturing themselves with it, when the obvious solution is to just move on. I'm kind of tired of this dragon fetish some people in the fantasy fandom seem to have.
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#8 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 03:25 PM

 Puck, on 21 November 2019 - 10:56 AM, said:

.... I'm kind of tired of this dragon fetish some people in the fantasy fandom seem to have.


Honestly, it's past time that flumphs got the respect that they deserve.
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#9 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 03:39 PM

Don't forget the gerblins. Why won't anyone think of the gerblins?

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 21 November 2019 - 03:39 PM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#10 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 November 2019 - 05:19 PM

 Gorefest, on 21 November 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

Don't forget the gerblins. Why won't anyone think of the gerblins?


Fact: gerblins and gerbling are different things.
Fact: spellcheck does not known this.
Fact: googling gerbling at work is bad. BAD BAD BAD.
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#11 User is online   Tsundoku 

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 12:04 AM

 Abyss, on 21 November 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

 Gorefest, on 21 November 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

Don't forget the gerblins. Why won't anyone think of the gerblins?


Fact: gerblins and gerbling are different things.
Fact: spellcheck does not known this.
Fact: googling gerbling at work is bad. BAD BAD BAD.


Don't you work in Child Protective Services?
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#12 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 08:00 AM

In my defence, I was simply referring to these: https://www.amazon.c...s/dp/1250153700

This post has been edited by Gorefest: 22 November 2019 - 08:01 AM

She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#13 User is offline   Gorefest 

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 08:12 AM

Although I guess it never hurts to find new fun stuff to do in the bedroom.
She went and she left me like litter. She took all future summers with her. I lost all my money cuz I tried to bribe her. Now I can only afford an amateur sniper.
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#14 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 03:29 PM

 Tsundoku, on 22 November 2019 - 12:04 AM, said:

 Abyss, on 21 November 2019 - 05:19 PM, said:

 Gorefest, on 21 November 2019 - 03:39 PM, said:

Don't forget the gerblins. Why won't anyone think of the gerblins?


Fact: gerblins and gerbling are different things.
Fact: spellcheck does not known this.
Fact: googling gerbling at work is bad. BAD BAD BAD.


Don't you work in Child Protective Services?


Nah, that's someone else. If anything i work in Child Endangerment Services.
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#15 User is online   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 November 2019 - 04:30 PM

There's a TV-show pitch hidden somewhere in there.
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#16 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 06:07 PM

I think he just treats them as characters instead of demigods as is often the case in high fantasy.

If they get wrecked more often than would be expected, it also fits the theme of "ancient terrors thinking they're still on top but having not predicted new developments and facing harsh consequences as a result" that happens a lot in Malazan. Dragons aren't the only unfathomably ancient beings this happens to (remember, Karsa Orlong's trophies).

Upending fantasy tropes is also one of the features of the series. Dragons being godlike/unstoppable/etc. is a fantasy trope. So combined with the above, them getting their shit kicked in from time to time isn't surprising.


All that said, the treatment of dragons is far from uniform throughout the series. Silanah, Telorast, and Curdle are all treated pretty positively, as are the soletaken Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, Rud Elalle, and Orfantal.

Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
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#17 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 06:51 PM

View PostKanese S, on 21 January 2020 - 06:07 PM, said:

... the treatment of dragons is far from uniform throughout the series. Silanah, Telorast, and Curdle are all treated pretty positively, as are the soletaken Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, Rud Elalle, and Orfantal.



Silanah was one spark away from reducing Black Coral to ash in TtH, which is the closest we ever get to a pov of a 'trueblood' dragon i think. We never get inside Telorast and Curdle's heads, which is probably for the best tho the scene in TB when they fuck with the Hounds is telling (and awesome).
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#18 User is offline   Kanese S's 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:02 PM

View PostAbyss, on 21 January 2020 - 06:51 PM, said:

View PostKanese S, on 21 January 2020 - 06:07 PM, said:

... the treatment of dragons is far from uniform throughout the series. Silanah, Telorast, and Curdle are all treated pretty positively, as are the soletaken Anomander Rake, Silchas Ruin, Rud Elalle, and Orfantal.



Silanah was one spark away from reducing Black Coral to ash in TtH, which is the closest we ever get to a pov of a 'trueblood' dragon i think. We never get inside Telorast and Curdle's heads, which is probably for the best tho the scene in TB when they fuck with the Hounds is telling (and awesome).

Telorast and Curdle are pretty great whenever they're featured, IMO.


Laseen did nothing wrong.

I demand Telorast & Curdle plushies.
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#19 User is offline   Briar King 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:38 PM

Do dragons have dicks?
Drive by bye bye king on my dumb horse
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#20 User is offline   Abyss 

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Posted 21 January 2020 - 07:40 PM

View PostBachelor King, on 21 January 2020 - 07:38 PM, said:

Do dragons have dicks?


i will not post that picture from SAGA 29
i will not post that picture from SAGA 29
i will not post that picture from SAGA 29
i will not post that picture from SAGA 29
i will not post that picture from SAGA 29
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