[Macros]

I think we're veering into another divergence here and coming cycle back to us politics three again.

I think it's a good discussion to start in the politics in general thread, about how almost globally we seem to be shifting to the right, is this the baby boomers last gasp before fucking off?

Anyway on topic. I feel that discussion forum has become less civil in the past year or two, is that a general fatigue of right wing politics in the main stream boiling over and lowering collective tolerance for it?

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 23 October 2019 - 01:09 PM, said:

worry, on 23 October 2019 - 03:13 AM, said:

I can see why anyone would conclude that DJT's solipsism is paramount, above and beyond any particular ideology. And that's probably true, at the root of things. But I personally don't think his pathologies and his prejudices, in the end, are that separable. His father Fred was in the KKK and was a notoriously bigoted housing magnate. DJT came into his business and fortune through the tutelage of his father, and even took part in his racist housing practices. He is also a germaphobe, and I suppose you might conclude his racial prejudices marry deep-rooted fears with the nasty stereotypes ingrained in his family and social heritage. I'm sure his decades-long associations with organized crime has reinforced anti-black and brown tendencies. Whatever the case may be, he has given important roles in his admin to Steve Bannon, Kris Kobach, and Stephen Miller, among others, who are each not remotely covert or closeted white nationalists. His campaign promised these policy positions, and his administration has carried them out to harrowing, and as amph has put it, life-threatening effect. It's not hypothetical and we shouldn't treat it as such. That doesn't mean everyone on the board, around the globe, has to be equally invested in it of course, and I don't mean this as a counterargument to your point. Only that his narcissism/greed/self-serving nature isn't mutually exclusive with his other base attitudes.

I agree with your point about the wider implications of policies and personnel of the Trump administration and I would go on to argue that Mitch McConnell's actions prove that these are part of a broader Republican agenda that was waiting for someone to put them into effect. Also I think we can't and shouldn't rule out how utterly mentally incoherent he is, and how this makes it possible for the Republican political machine to get certain things rubber stamped.
However I maintain, that if tomorrow Trump decided that dumping the Evangelical group would benefit him personally, he would do soTrump himself cares only about himself. And if it suited him, he would dump David Duke and Mike Pence tomorrow. He is racist, but before that, he is Trumpist.

Let's also remember that DJT's whole schtick (if we can call it that) is based off his tutelage at the knee of one Roy Cohn. Never a more aptly named person BTW. If you want to know who taught Trump to shove his way through laws/obstacles that should be insurmountable to a law-abiding, upstanding citizens humans, it was fucking Cohn. The whole idea of "push through, no matter who/what stands in your way, and if it's wrong or against the law you can "explain" from the other side of the "win" and move on. This is how this dude runs his whole life. And if you read about Roy Cohn, you will learn the ins and outs of who Trump is to a T. It's like learning how to "human" at the feet of goddamned Jafar from Aladdin.

[Gorefest]

Macros, on 23 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think it's a good discussion to start in the politics in general thread, about how almost globally we seem to be shifting to the right, is this the baby boomers last gasp before fucking off?

To be honest, I believe it is a trend on both sides of the political spectrum. More and more people seem to be vacating the centre ground and moving to the extremes. I personally suspect it is a consequence of our increased social media use and the watering down of journalistic integrity and news content. Balanced viewpoints are sacrificed in a drive towards eye-catching headlines and quick, one-liner updates on current events. At the same time, snap comments ('reacting in the moment') stream out at us through outlets such as Twitter and Facebook, polarising people and entrenching them in fixed ideals and narratives. Balanced discussions and time to reflect on other people's viewpoints is traded in for quickfire personality debates, in which it doesn't matter who has the most compelling viewpoint but instead who can garner the most 'likes' in a short time span.

I fear that, unless we find some way of globally regulating and moderating our social media consumption and educate people better in disseminating information and reviewing their source materials, things will only get more polarised over the next few years. It really worries me.

[Andorion]

Macros, on 23 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think we're veering into another divergence here and coming cycle back to us politics three again.

I think it's a good discussion to start in the politics in general thread, about how almost globally we seem to be shifting to the right, is this the baby boomers last gasp before fucking off?

Anyway on topic. I feel that discussion forum has become less civil in the past year or two, is that a general fatigue of right wing politics in the main stream boiling over and lowering collective tolerance for it?

I think it maybe a side effect of most forms of media in general getting less civil, more polarized and more extreme.

Also, I think for some Americans it might be the cumulative effect of understanding how fragile democratic institutions can be on the one hand and others finding themselves demonized continuously.

In the end, its a struggle to rationalize that the person who disagrees with you, that the person who is clearly wrong, is also a fully functional human being. This has become even more extreme because the stakes of this disagreement are human rights, human lives, and big picture: the survival of humanity.

[Grief]

I'll try and add more detail later but a few things I'd raise as possible food for thought;

- In terms of concretely improving the situation, I think we need to account for the changing dynamic of the forum as a whole (in terms of size, membership, activity etc).

- To chime in on a point made earlier by obdi about reporting comments- I have to say my experience from the other side is different. Reports are underutilised imo.

[Vengeance]

Grief, on 23 October 2019 - 05:34 PM, said:

I'll try and add more detail later but a few things I'd raise as possible food for thought;

- In terms of concretely improving the situation, I think we need to account for the changing dynamic of the forum as a whole (in terms of size, membership, activity etc).

- To chime in on a point made earlier by obdi about reporting comments- I have to say my experience from the other side is different. Reports are underutilised imo.

Or reports are utilized wrongly in some cases.

[amphibian]

Andorion, on 23 October 2019 - 04:59 PM, said:

Macros, on 23 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think we're veering into another divergence here and coming cycle back to us politics three again.

I think it's a good discussion to start in the politics in general thread, about how almost globally we seem to be shifting to the right, is this the baby boomers last gasp before fucking off?

Anyway on topic. I feel that discussion forum has become less civil in the past year or two, is that a general fatigue of right wing politics in the main stream boiling over and lowering collective tolerance for it?

I think it maybe a side effect of most forms of media in general getting less civil, more polarized and more extreme.

Also, I think for some Americans it might be the cumulative effect of understanding how fragile democratic institutions can be on the one hand and others finding themselves demonized continuously.

In the end, its a struggle to rationalize that the person who disagrees with you, that the person who is clearly wrong, is also a fully functional human being. This has become even more extreme because the stakes of this disagreement are human rights, human lives, and big picture: the survival of humanity.

Where the "center" is moved a ton in my adult life time and I've only been an adult for 15 years. It moved super far right and the successful capture of state and federal government by the GOP is the cause. That capture was driven by voter disenfranchisement, gerrymandering, the flood of corporate money into elections, and above all, a large chunk of the population fighting back against the re-balancing of economic and political opportunity.

Nicodimas wrote in his private message to me that his grandmother fled a majority Romani town in Hungary ahead of the Nazis. One might think that would mean he'd be forever anti-fascist, very welcoming of immigration, or at the least, not read and parrot the talking points of people who are clearly bigoted and attempting to persecute other minorities. But nah, he's donating to Trump, anti-Mexican, and quite happy to bolster fascist things.

These things don't make sense in an abstract way and pushing back against this is exhausting, seemingly fruitless, and makes the forum worse.

Obdigore used to joke a lot here. But around 2015, things started getting really bad in the US and his tone and my tone changed. I don't think it's permanent, at least I hope it's not, but for me, it's directly linked to how bad things are politically where I live.

Mentalist had a huge thread about the Russian invasion of the Crimea. It was one of the most courageous things I've ever seen here and it didn't get rebutted by pro-Russians here. Nobody here was dumb enough to buy into Putin's propaganda.

But people here are buying into the GOP propaganda and it's bad. There's diversity of opinion and then there's supporting a party that's breaking up families, causing farmers to go bankrupt, starting stupid trade wars with China, supporting North Korean and Saudi Arabian dictators, abetting the murder of Kurds, crushing social welfare programs, ruining the environment, removing bodily autonomy from women and non-binary people, and committing a ton of acts of corruption.

This is unreservedly bad. Taking a stance against this stuff is important.

What did you think about what Erikson was doing with The Snake or the Letherii perversion of the Edur invasion and government? This stuff may seem abstract to you in your daily lives, but it's happening to real people not that far from you. It'll start to creep closer and closer until you're dealing with it yourself. I'm already dealing with Type 1 diabetes clients rationing insulin because they can't afford it. I'm already telling family members with green cards to not convert to citizenship now because even a minor fuck up like forgetting a day trip to Canada 8 years ago on the paperwork can get them deported.

That's why I'm strident and why I was not nice in my statements towards Nicodimas for the last couple years. I held my tongue for a long time, but what did it get us? Just more and more radicalized stuff from him.

I don't think I'm super left wing. I think that by not speaking up before, I contributed to the motion of the discussion to the right of where it's supposed to be - where it is in places like Scandinavia and so on.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Gorefest, on 23 October 2019 - 03:36 PM, said:

Macros, on 23 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

I think it's a good discussion to start in the politics in general thread, about how almost globally we seem to be shifting to the right, is this the baby boomers last gasp before fucking off?

To be honest, I believe it is a trend on both sides of the political spectrum. More and more people seem to be vacating the centre ground and moving to the extremes. I personally suspect it is a consequence of our increased social media use and the watering down of journalistic integrity and news content. Balanced viewpoints are sacrificed in a drive towards eye-catching headlines and quick, one-liner updates on current events. At the same time, snap comments ('reacting in the moment') stream out at us through outlets such as Twitter and Facebook, polarising people and entrenching them in fixed ideals and narratives. Balanced discussions and time to reflect on other people's viewpoints is traded in for quickfire personality debates, in which it doesn't matter who has the most compelling viewpoint but instead who can garner the most 'likes' in a short time span.

I fear that, unless we find some way of globally regulating and moderating our social media consumption and educate people better in disseminating information and reviewing their source materials, things will only get more polarised over the next few years. It really worries me.

I think people also have less time to spend. Most people on this forum were considerably younger with considerably fewer responsibilities and burdens on their time in the Long Long Ago. They had time to spend hours reading, thinking, and responding.

These days, perhaps not so much. (Maybe I'm just projecting my own experience).

[worry]

From my perspective, the whole notion of polarization (at least in the US) is a euphemism to couch the fact that its conservative party has gone off the deep end. Its rival party (also largely conservative to moderate) is...complacent (also a euphemism, this time for derelict). I mean, doesn't polarization by definition require two ends? Where's the other end?

Re: Ando's point about Trump, I agree in the end with that, he's Trumpist above all. But I also think everyone on here from the center on leftward (and nobody regular on here is even crazy far left) is fully aware Trump is a symptom and not the disease. Those who aren't US Politics thread regulars naturally might not know this, but amph in particular has been steadfast and patient several times over in detailing the Southern Strategy and its implications in American politics, its throughline to today's neo-fascist state of the GOP.

Part of the pain of the current moment in my country -- and maybe in the US Politics thread, though I hate thinking of it it as a microcosm since pretty much everyone who boards here is genuinely kind, smart, and well-meaning -- is being honest about why the Southern Strategy has worked so well, so often, and how it fits in a longer historical legacy of power dynamics. Another part of the pain is that as the populace at large becomes more socially liberal, the victims of this horrifying cultural and political legacy gain voice in the public discourse, and they're not necessarily satisfied with the status quo. It's a relatively small voice, even in coalition, but even that small rock of the boat makes some people uncomfortable (and is also inspiring to so many others).

So being honest is uncomfortable for sure and in many ways painful, and pain/discomfort leads sometimes to reactionary responses (and that's definitely non-partisan). One interesting example of this is people taking tours of American plantations and getting furious that their tour guides spend so much time talking about slavery -- but that's kinda what's happening all over, with a bunch of different topics, so there's a microcosm I don't mind so much. Anyway, we have to be honest about these phenomena, we have to be honest about the legacies involved, we have to be honest about how modern public figures and the American populace at large fit in (even as we're aware generalizations are what they are), and we have to be honest that politics isn't always 'opinions' like chocolate vs vanilla, who would win in a fight between Rake and Inspector Gadget, etc. Sometimes it is, but a lot of times it's not, and the stakes -- the harm -- is real. On the other hand, it sucks when people take out their broader frustrations on individuals like BK. It sucks when people put words in his mouth, and it sucks when people treat him like he's MAGA. It also kinda sucks that I'm talking about him in third person, but he's the most concrete example of that I can think of.

[Malankazooie]

[Gorefest]

Indeed, I'd be crying all day long about losing friends and family without end.

[Maark Abbott]

Macros, on 23 October 2019 - 01:42 PM, said:

Anyway on topic. I feel that discussion forum has become less civil in the past year or two, is that a general fatigue of right wing politics in the main stream boiling over and lowering collective tolerance for it?

The people who have grown up to see exactly what sort of a post-right wing populist world they will inherit are now old enough to have a voice. Add that to shifting sociological outlooks and I'd agree that tolerance for right wing boomerism is falling rapidly. We're seeing firsthand the Simpsons' song where it's the young vs the old.

The less facetious, more immediately relevant point is that the populist right shift is spiralling into parallels of a certain country circa 1920 - I don't feel that it's a stretch to say that right wing populism leads into fascism because we are actively witnessing the same at the moment - and on the BOP, what other cause is there?

[worry]

This is a tough one, because I'm absolutely positive that the mod team isn't like, "You know you're making a generalization right?" whenever someone talks about millions of people in aggregate. That would be patronizing. Like if someone on the board had a bad experience on a date with a man and they said "Men suck!" folks here wouldn't bombard them with "Not all men are like that!" and they wouldn't face censure for that generalization, because we respect the fact they know that already. We'd also understand that a guy who piped up truly all upset about it would be the one in the wrong, for being a wiener, and taking their complaint (earnest or not) seriously would be a waste of everyone's time. Likewise, the board wouldn't countenance a 'debate' on (for example) phrenology just because it was tonally civil. We all have that baseline respect for one another.

But on the other hand, Silencer is right that Daft is an insult that doesn't invite discussion from the so-called 'daft' to hash things out. If someone's not daft, they take it as the insult it was meant to be and it potentially derails the conversation as they defend themselves, and if they are daft or borderline daft, it may send them into an existential crisis, which derails the conversation in its own way. So in that light, it may be antithetical to the Discussion forum to call such a broad group (particularly not public figures) daft. In its place, I think maybe the word you're looking for is complicit, as in regardless of your intelligence level, your kindness/friendliness towards others on a personal & day to day level, whether you happen to like the same nerd books and video games, etc., one's complicity with Toryism (and its inextricable link to the right's overall slide into fascism) is what is at question. Their threat to you or your kids, or other loved ones, or (in the long run) society or civilization is real -- that's not debatable, and it's really at the heart of your frustration/disagreement right? -- but voicing objections to complicity doesn't rely on any personal vice or foible (including daftness or malice). So it's a personally neutral statement that doesn't rely on insults, just actions/decisions politically speaking, and it's worth interrogating through discussion. And even when you're making generalizations, it's essentially accurate.

In terms of morality: Now there are people who are downright virulent, of course, there's no denying that. And they number in frighteningly, uncomfortably high numbers -- and the moral thing is to cut them out/off period. But if you feel someone is complicit because they're truly daft, then it's probably best not to put it that way. Think of it as you would saving your nan from a phishing email. You wouldn't say, "Hey dummy you sure screwed up your life lol." You would say, "Nan, I'm afraid this person isn't a legitimate prince looking to give away his fortune. In fact, this is a common scam, so you shouldn't send them anything, and in the future you should ignore these emails, delete them right away. If you're ever not sure, feel free to ask me and I will help you. Because you're my nan and I love you." You don't have to love everyone as much as you love your nan, but morally (and time permitting) you maybe gotta at least try to help them before you write them off as a lost cause (and for some you might not ever write them off, period).

I apologize, I suppose this post is more appropriate for the meta thread. Hopefully it helps someone.

[Silencer]

worry, on 29 October 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

*snip*

You know, worry, I wouldn't have thought you'd be in favour of tarring large groups of people with the same brush. It seems like something you're really passionate about NOT doing, under most circumstances. Unless you're suggesting if someone were to come on this forum and suggest that all people of a certain race were lesser somehow, that this would be OK because it's just a generalisation? Oh, oh no, because that would be racism and terrible. And if I recall correctly, aren't we supposed to be applying the same standards equally to all "sides"? Hmmm. Whatever shall we do?

[worry]

Huh? I said I agreed with you about "daft". My point about complicity is that it's not a personal insult, it's a matter of emphasizing ownership for your political choices (which, at least in terms of voting, are actions) in a democracy. I also didn't say it exists in a vacuum, it's all that defines you, or that it's permanently damning. It's not a scarlet letter to admit you're complicit in a negative phenomenon.

[worry]

Regarding generalizations, I think I'm misreading you. I honestly don't know who I've tarred with that post, or who the racial analogy is applying to in your post, and I've read it over a couple times (it's late and I'm sick though). My apologies if I'm not addressing your full meaning.

Edit: And sorry, I meant that as an invitation to expand on your meaning if you want to or have time (I don't want to disrupt your day though).

This post has been edited by worry: 30 October 2019 - 07:20 AM

[Morgoth]

Silencer, on 30 October 2019 - 05:51 AM, said:

worry, on 29 October 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

*snip*

You know, worry, I wouldn't have thought you'd be in favour of tarring large groups of people with the same brush. It seems like something you're really passionate about NOT doing, under most circumstances. Unless you're suggesting if someone were to come on this forum and suggest that all people of a certain race were lesser somehow, that this would be OK because it's just a generalisation? Oh, oh no, because that would be racism and terrible. And if I recall correctly, aren't we supposed to be applying the same standards equally to all "sides"? Hmmm. Whatever shall we do?

... what? I don't get this post at all.

[King Lear]

Silencer, on 30 October 2019 - 05:51 AM, said:

worry, on 29 October 2019 - 08:05 PM, said:

*snip*

You know, worry, I wouldn't have thought you'd be in favour of tarring large groups of people with the same brush. It seems like something you're really passionate about NOT doing, under most circumstances. Unless you're suggesting if someone were to come on this forum and suggest that all people of a certain race were lesser somehow, that this would be OK because it's just a generalisation? Oh, oh no, because that would be racism and terrible. And if I recall correctly, aren't we supposed to be applying the same standards equally to all "sides"? Hmmm. Whatever shall we do?

You know, personal insults aren't the only thing that contributes to stifling the kinds of discussion you've stated you want for this board. Being condescending as hell works too. So does vague generalizing about expectations for behaviour, while alluding to goings-on behind the mod screen, while using said modship as cudgel to get people to do ... something that you want them to. It's been over a week and you still haven't really clarified what you want from people because you haven't really defined what the problem is.

If you could get down off your high horse for a couple of minutes, and restrain yourself from berating grown adults like recalcitrant children and actually fucking talk about what you want and how you'd like to go about getting it, and what people can do to achieve that, please do so, or get a mod who can. Because I tell you what, you want to talk about a forum being welcoming and place for everyone, I'm really tired of seeing these dripping with sarcasm messages from you while you simultaneously demand that people be nice.

Like if you want Tiste to stop needling BK, why doesn't anyone say that? If you want BK to stop doing drivebys in the Discussion forms, then use those specific words.

If you want people to #notallconservatives, #notallrebublicans, #notalltories after every "the group X said a bad thing, their supporters still support them but that doesn't mean that they support bad thing" or whatever it is then maybe say that. And if you think this is an unfair misrepresentation of what's been happening, please feel free to correct me, because I'm very confused!

But let me just say, that if you find yourself unable to do so without any "bold of you to assume" gotcha type argument where you can feel smug in your intellectual superiority over me, instead of clarifying your position (with evidence, if you please) then I'll ask you kindly to get fucked and be done.

[Mezla PigDog]

I haven't read this whole thread but you know when you read a post and imagine it was written in a certain tone, and it pisses you off? But then you read it again another time with a more generous imagined tone and it reads completely differently? My spidey senses are picking up a lot of that.

But it's a tricky thing. I was awful to Battalion in the Brexit thread at least once some time back. It was a definite breach of forum rules and I'm not sorry. Glad I don't have to moderate it though and I'll try not to do it again. Unless he comes back.

[Whisperzzzzzzz]

Mezla PigDog, on 31 October 2019 - 10:26 PM, said:

I haven't read this whole thread but you know when you read a post and imagine it was written in a certain tone, and it pisses you off? But then you read it again another time with a more generous imagined tone and it reads completely differently? My spidey senses are picking up a lot of that.

But it's a tricky thing. I was awful to Battalion in the Brexit thread at least once some time back. It was a definite breach of forum rules and I'm not sorry. Glad I don't have to moderate it though and I'll try not to do it again. Unless he comes back.

Principle Of Charity