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META: Discussion about the discourse in the discussion threads.

#1 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 04:14 AM

**** Link to original comment in Groove thread that kicked off this discussion - several posts moved en masse from that thread to this one ****



View PostAptorian, on 22 October 2019 - 02:59 AM, said:

Yeah, meanwhile the right has fucking nazies walking in the streets, militias vowing to take back America if the orange prince is impeached, religious bigots persecuting gay people and people who get abortions... But the left are pretty scary because some random group or incident got brought up on Breitbart or what ever cesspool you get your opinions from.

Somebody should probably reopen the US politics thread.


Not if this is any example of the level of discourse that will be taking place there.
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#2 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.
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#3 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:06 AM

View Postworry, on 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.


First of all, bold of you to assume I meant Apt's post.

Second of all, even that was not in any way a meaningful response or commentary on US politics other than taking the bait Nico was throwing out and then proceeding to respond by painting broad strokes about "the right".

This forum is not divided into good people and "the right", and neither is the USA.

You lot need to stop dog piling on people and dismissing their points out of hand. The shenanigans in the concerned thread between you, a couple of others, and Brujah was one of the most depressing things I've seen on this forum in a long time.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. This forum has a history of self moderation and while I appreciate that for a whole bunch of us, USA residents or not, the current political situation is polarizing, I wanted to think we could maintain higher standards of discussion without turning on each other and making thinly veiled personal attacks and assumptions about the quality of other members' character or intelligence. And for the record, talking as broadly as possible about one "side" of the debate when you known the other party identifies with that side and you're making derogatory comments about anyone who thinks that way? Yeah, that is still a personal attack.

It's been getting worse over the last few months but apparently we've let it slide too far for too long. The admins are currently in discussions as to where we go from here. Hopefully we'll have an update for you all shortly.
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#4 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:14 AM

View PostSilencer, on 22 October 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.


First of all, bold of you to assume I meant Apt's post.

Second of all, even that was not in any way a meaningful response or commentary on US politics other than taking the bait Nico was throwing out and then proceeding to respond by painting broad strokes about "the right".

This forum is not divided into good people and "the right", and neither is the USA.

You lot need to stop dog piling on people and dismissing their points out of hand. The shenanigans in the concerned thread between you, a couple of others, and Brujah was one of the most depressing things I've seen on this forum in a long time.

Frankly, I'm disappointed. This forum has a history of self moderation and while I appreciate that for a whole bunch of us, USA residents or not, the current political situation is polarizing, I wanted to think we could maintain higher standards of discussion without turning on each other and making thinly veiled personal attacks and assumptions about the quality of other members' character or intelligence.

It's been getting worse over the last few months but apparently we've let it slide too far for too long. The admins are currently in discussions as to where we go from here. Hopefully we'll have an update for you all shortly.


Hmmm. Can't say I disagree with anything you're saying. I like to think I'm normally pretty rational but it has become hard recently to not have a knee jerk reaction.

Feels like we're back to the old days with the religious discussions.

But surely you're not going to ban political discussions!?
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#5 User is offline   worry 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 06:19 AM

Well I assumed you were addressing the person you quoted, my bad. I'm not trying to be argumentative. His post seems absolutely normal to me. As far as your reaction to my conversation with Brujah, that must come down to a matter of perspective too. I thought it was largely good-natured and I didn't feel personally attacked at all (my clones, on the other hand...). But then I was mostly off the board Saturday so I don't know if there was followup that got deleted. From what I see is still there, his responses to my last post or two were normal enough. He seemed like he was being earnest. I was being earnest (in my own way). Both of us were talking about subject matter, rather than each other, even if it got a little meta-politics. I dunno what to tell you. Sorry you guys are so put out.
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#6 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:22 PM

View PostSilencer, on 22 October 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.




You lot need to stop dog piling on people and dismissing their points out of hand.




"points"


Maybe its because you don't live in the US, but the constant stream of gaslighting and bullshit is tiresome. And the last place I want to see it is on one of the few places on the internet I love. If someone wants to discuss a political view that differs from most of the board, that would be awesome. Healthy discussion is great.

But alt right bullshit is not a point, and deserves none of our time or effort.


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#7 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 12:34 PM

Oh look, the forum admins are demanding that everyone give equal time and respect to people who literally are using a gish gallop (https://en.wikipedia...iki/Gish_gallop), then running away and not responding.

And instead of banning the troll doing this, they decide to lock threads where people are sick of their lies and hatred?

That seems... well... you do you I guess.

Protip - Silencer, all your posts about how 'both sides have points' should go on here https://www.reddit.c...HTENEDCENTRISM/
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#8 User is offline   Silencer 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:07 PM

View PostSlow Ben, on 22 October 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

View PostSilencer, on 22 October 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.
You lot need to stop dog piling on people and dismissing their points out of hand.
"points"Maybe its because you don't live in the US, but the constant stream of gaslighting and bullshit is tiresome. And the last place I want to see it is on one of the few places on the internet I love. If someone wants to discuss a political view that differs from most of the board, that would be awesome. Healthy discussion is great. But alt right bullshit is not a point, and deserves none of our time or effort.



View PostObdigore, on 22 October 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh look, the forum admins are demanding that everyone give equal time and respect to people who literally are using a gish gallop (https://en.wikipedia...iki/Gish_gallop), then running away and not responding.And instead of banning the troll doing this, they decide to lock threads where people are sick of their lies and hatred?That seems... well... you do you I guess.Protip - Silencer, all your posts about how 'both sides have points' should go on here https://www.reddit.c...HTENEDCENTRISM/



Or, perhaps, because I don't live in the US I'm less likely to be blinded by my own personal stake in affairs and have watched as, over time, any dissenting viewpoint has been crushed by a cavalcade of dismissive comments? Note, not informative, reasoned responses that logically demonstrate why the opposing viewpoint is wrong, but literally the same broad strokes painting an entire group of people with one brush that only reflects the worst possible version of their position. Now, I could be snarky and link to a well known fallacy about this, but it's been a long enough day already without me actively engaging in talking down to you.

False balance is not the issue here. If you believe something is not a genuine opinion being held by the other member, you don't need to address it. You are most welcome to click the report button if you believe someone is trolling. In fact, one of the parts of our Code of Conduct is "do not respond to any baiting". So I guess the fact that you're all responding instead of ignoring it or using the report button means you find it genuine?

Also, neither Brujah nor Worry "used a gish gallop then ran away and didn't respond". So, Obdi, you might want to get off your own high horse and actually look at the posts that have led to the current locking of said thread, 'coz it had nothing to do with everyone's favourite prepper.

@Slow Ben - the few times any of our members have expressed a different viewpoint (and not one that crosses into caricature, mind you) they've been all but accused of being Nazis. So if it's reasoned discussion you want, maybe help the forum slow it's roll from becoming an echo chamber that crushes everyone different or assumes the worst on the other side, and actually engage people in good faith before they get swarmed?
And, for your own reference, it's not like the news out of the US isn't exhausting or infuriating for the rest of us who find the current administration reprehensible. But what is possibly more worrying is seeing that anger at the current situation being vented here, at our members, without consideration of nuance or intention. I'd also suggest that maybe if it's having that much of an impact on you, frequenting the US Politics thread may not be good for you. Not that I'm suggesting you disengage, it's more important now than ever that people in the US advocate for positive change, but taking time out from politics to look after your own sanity is also perfectly reasonable.




For the record, refusing to acknowledge that anyone with a different opinion from you can have a "point", is exactly the problem. You have both immediately assumed that what we are talking about is the worst position possible. We're not telling you to agree with, or tolerate, holocaust denial, racism, sexism, or other bigotry. Heck, the administration hasn't actually decided yet what we ARE going to do about this, as I noted upthread. But maybe, just maybe, when someone comes on the board and expresses an opinion, "don't jump down their throats and lump them in with Nazis, go off on the same rant you've done six different times in the last month about systemic oppression being the only thing that matters and how looking in the direction of a Trump supporter with less than outright hatred is the same as voting for the man", and you miiiiiiiiiiiiight be getting closer to the position we're advocating.

Or, you know, keep doing what you're doing and proving my point. Whatever floats your boat.
***

Shinrei said:

<Vote Silencer> For not garnering any heat or any love for that matter. And I'm being serious here, it's like a mental block that is there, and you just keep forgetting it.

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#9 User is offline   Tiste Simeon 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:15 PM

Problem is, Silencer, that a lot of the times in the past when certain members have been challenged or asked to explain their viewpoints, they have either not responded or turned it into a "how dare you accuse me of -ism". This has happened on numerous occasions and the actual debate can't proceed. I dunno about others but I grow tired of trying and if a more extreme post provokes an actual reaction then so be it.
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#10 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:30 PM

View PostSilencer, on 22 October 2019 - 01:07 PM, said:

View PostSlow Ben, on 22 October 2019 - 12:22 PM, said:

View PostSilencer, on 22 October 2019 - 06:06 AM, said:

View Postworry, on 22 October 2019 - 05:28 AM, said:

Yikes! What did Apt say that was inaccurate or over the line? All of those things are undeniably true, at least here in the U.S., including the thing about Nico. He literally posted a GAI (Government Accountability Institute) link a week or two ago in there. That's the far right conspiracist 'think tank' Steve Bannon and Pete Schweizer -- both either former or current leadership at Breitbart -- founded together. Schweizer currently pulls double duty as editor of Breitbart and president of GAI, and the far right Mercer oligarch family funds it. Nico literally gets his information from cesspools like Breitbart, and posts it here. That's not a personal attack, it's a fact. If it was the profanity, on the other hand, I apologize for my presumption. I'm not fond of it myself.
You lot need to stop dog piling on people and dismissing their points out of hand.
"points"Maybe its because you don't live in the US, but the constant stream of gaslighting and bullshit is tiresome. And the last place I want to see it is on one of the few places on the internet I love. If someone wants to discuss a political view that differs from most of the board, that would be awesome. Healthy discussion is great. But alt right bullshit is not a point, and deserves none of our time or effort.



View PostObdigore, on 22 October 2019 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh look, the forum admins are demanding that everyone give equal time and respect to people who literally are using a gish gallop (https://en.wikipedia...iki/Gish_gallop), then running away and not responding.And instead of banning the troll doing this, they decide to lock threads where people are sick of their lies and hatred?That seems... well... you do you I guess.Protip - Silencer, all your posts about how 'both sides have points' should go on here https://www.reddit.c...HTENEDCENTRISM/



Or, perhaps, because I don't live in the US I'm less likely to be blinded by my own personal stake in affairs and have watched as, over time, any dissenting viewpoint has been crushed by a cavalcade of dismissive comments? Note, not informative, reasoned responses that logically demonstrate why the opposing viewpoint is wrong, but literally the same broad strokes painting an entire group of people with one brush that only reflects the worst possible version of their position. Now, I could be snarky and link to a well known fallacy about this, but it's been a long enough day already without me actively engaging in talking down to you.

Ahh but there is the thing, we've spent years putting well detailed, researched points in the Politics thread, and you know what happens? 3 weeks later the same poster comes in and posts their same lies. Over and over again. Linking bullshit and lies. So we are supposed to just continually refute those comments, ad naseum, while that person just keeps posting the same shit and ignoring any refutations? Once again, you are holding one side to a standard you aren't holding the other.

Quote

False balance is not the issue here. If you believe something is not a genuine opinion being held by the other member, you don't need to address it. You are most welcome to click the report button if you believe someone is trolling. In fact, one of the parts of our Code of Conduct is "do not respond to any baiting". So I guess the fact that you're all responding instead of ignoring it or using the report button means you find it genuine?

We click the button. Nothing happens. We talk about how troll-y the person is. Nothing happens. Then you close the thread because we don't post detailed responses? Which is it? Laugh at the trolls and don't take the bait, or require well researched, backed posts? It can't be both.

Quote

Also, neither Brujah nor Worry "used a gish gallop then ran away and didn't respond". So, Obdi, you might want to get off your own high horse and actually look at the posts that have led to the current locking of said thread, 'coz it had nothing to do with everyone's favourite prepper.
Nothing in what remains in there should have caused a thread to be locked, and as far as I can tell, everyone is confused why the thread is locked based on those posts. Maybe you could give us a statement there as to exactly why it was locked?

Quote

@Slow Ben - the few times any of our members have expressed a different viewpoint (and not one that crosses into caricature, mind you) they've been all but accused of being Nazis. So if it's reasoned discussion you want, maybe help the forum slow it's roll from becoming an echo chamber that crushes everyone different or assumes the worst on the other side, and actually engage people in good faith before they get swarmed?

Not Slow Ben, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents here. Supporting Donald Trump and the GOP is supporting literal Nazis who put people in cages for months, then sell their kids to the whitest zealots they know. If this isn't abhorrent to you, you are either a fanboy, a racist, or just don't put value on human life.

Quote

And, for your own reference, it's not like the news out of the US isn't exhausting or infuriating for the rest of us who find the current administration reprehensible. But what is possibly more worrying is seeing that anger at the current situation being vented here, at our members, without consideration of nuance or intention. I'd also suggest that maybe if it's having that much of an impact on you, frequenting the US Politics thread may not be good for you. Not that I'm suggesting you disengage, it's more important now than ever that people in the US advocate for positive change, but taking time out from politics to look after your own sanity is also perfectly reasonable.




For the record, refusing to acknowledge that anyone with a different opinion from you can have a "point", is exactly the problem. You have both immediately assumed that what we are talking about is the worst position possible. We're not telling you to agree with, or tolerate, holocaust denial, racism, sexism, or other bigotry. Heck, the administration hasn't actually decided yet what we ARE going to do about this, as I noted upthread. But maybe, just maybe, when someone comes on the board and expresses an opinion, "don't jump down their throats and lump them in with Nazis, go off on the same rant you've done six different times in the last month about systemic oppression being the only thing that matters and how looking in the direction of a Trump supporter with less than outright hatred is the same as voting for the man", and you miiiiiiiiiiiiight be getting closer to the position we're advocating.

Or, you know, keep doing what you're doing and proving my point. Whatever floats your boat.


Nothing we are doing 'proves your point', because your point is a non-starter. Anyone who supports this administration is supporting everything this administration does. Politics isn't a buffet, where you can choose to like the roast beef and the collard greens, but not take the blatant racism and putting children in cages. If you support the group doing all those things, you are supporting all those things.

What point has been made in the politics thread that was pro-trump? I've yet to see one in months. And no, before you try to say that makes me biased, that's because I can't find anything good trump has done in months, much less years. He is looting the coffers of the country, while his fans cheer him on because, and I quote 'he is hurting the right people'.
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#11 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:37 PM

Obdigore, I think with every post, with your tone and your arguments, you're proving Silencer right. In that we've reached a point where the discussion board isn't pleasant any longer.

I've certainly jumped to the defense of other poster in the DB earlier, though I also now find myself more often feeling exasperated and making knee jerk comments that are neither constructive or objective.

That's not how the DB is supposed to work. Most of us a grown ups now a days, rational, well spoken, insightful, we can do better. We have done better.
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#12 User is offline   TheRetiredBridgeburner 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:47 PM

View PostObdigore, on 22 October 2019 - 01:30 PM, said:

Not Slow Ben, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents here. Supporting Donald Trump and the GOP is supporting literal Nazis who put people in cages for months, then sell their kids to the whitest zealots they know. If this isn't abhorrent to you, you are either a fanboy, a racist, or just don't put value on human life.


Honestly - with that bit alone you're wholly proving Silencer's point.

"If you think x, then you are y" is exactly the problem.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 22 October 2019 - 01:48 PM

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#13 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:50 PM

View PostAptorian, on 22 October 2019 - 01:37 PM, said:

Obdigore, I think with every post, with your tone and your arguments, you're proving Silencer right. In that we've reached a point where the discussion board isn't pleasant any longer.

I've certainly jumped to the defense of other poster in the DB earlier, though I also now find myself more often feeling exasperated and making knee jerk comments that are neither constructive or objective.

That's not how the DB is supposed to work. Most of us a grown ups now a days, rational, well spoken, insightful, we can do better. We have done better.


I'd agree if the rules were the same for everyone. If each post needs to be a well though out, rational, sourced debate, that you then defend or amend based on interaction with others, then apply that rule to all.

It's not, and it leads to drive-by comments and people who post obvious lies and disappear.

If there needs to be a re-strictening, then lets do it.
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#14 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 01:51 PM

View PostTheRetiredBridgeburner, on 22 October 2019 - 01:47 PM, said:

View PostObdigore, on 22 October 2019 - 01:30 PM, said:

Not Slow Ben, but I'll go ahead and throw my two cents here. Supporting Donald Trump and the GOP is supporting literal Nazis who put people in cages for months, then sell their kids to the whitest zealots they know. If this isn't abhorrent to you, you are either a fanboy, a racist, or just don't put value on human life.


Honestly - with that bit alone you're wholly proving Silencer's point.

"If you think x, then you are y" is exactly the problem.


And yet I didn't say 'if you think x, then you are y'. I said if you support people who put kids in cages and sell them to be adopted after deporting their parents, you have to own that shit.

What would you call someone who supports that practice?
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#15 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:06 PM

A member of Trump's cabinet? Just because you vote for a republican or have right wing opinions, it doesn't mean you're automatically on board with everything that's done by the administration.
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#16 User is offline   Aptorian 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:08 PM

Some mod should move these posts into a meta thread.
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#17 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:10 PM

View PostAptorian, on 22 October 2019 - 02:06 PM, said:

A member of Trump's cabinet? Just because you vote for a republican or have right wing opinions, it doesn't mean you're automatically on board with everything that's done by the administration.


Inaccurate. If you continue to support someone as you watch them do these atrocities, you are just as to blame.

That's what Democracy is my dude.

Maybe if you voted for him in 2016 and thought it was just a 'fuck you politicians' vote, I could see it. Continuing to support this administration is to be party to its crimes.
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#18 User is offline   Obdigore 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:29 PM

View PostAptorian, on 22 October 2019 - 02:08 PM, said:

Some mod should move these posts into a meta thread.


Like a discussions thread?

I kid I kid!

Might not be a bad idea though.
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#19 User is offline   QuickTidal 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:30 PM

Perspective:

I can see that I disagree with, say, BK from a political leanings angle...but still think decent things about him as a human, be acquainted with him on a personal level and interact about the stuff we like and enjoy chatting about...and let any political divide stay as solely THAT. A political divide, and nothing further. And I would still shake his hand and have a beer with him if I ever met him. And I would never call him a nazi, or a racist...because he isn't one...no matter his politics.

Just like I am not in the habit of disowning my family for voting against all our interests (and good sense) when they vote Conservative in Canadian elections. We can exist, love each other, be family and have WILDLY different political opinions. And one day all of this will pass.

And I think we can all just ignore Nico can't we?

TL;DR: I side with Apt, TRB, and Silencer here. In case it wasn't apparent.
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#20 User is offline   Slow Ben 

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Posted 22 October 2019 - 02:42 PM

View PostQuickTidal, on 22 October 2019 - 02:30 PM, said:

Perspective:

I can see that I disagree with, say, BK from a political leanings angle...but still think decent things about him as a human, be acquainted with him on a personal level and interact about the stuff we like and enjoy chatting about...and let any political divide stay as solely THAT. A political divide, and nothing further. And I would still shake his hand and have a beer with him if I ever met him. And I would never call him a nazi, or a racist...because he isn't one...no matter his politics.

Just like I am not in the habit of disowning my family for voting against all our interests (and good sense) when they vote Conservative in Canadian elections. We can exist, love each other, be family and have WILDLY different political opinions. And one day all of this will pass.

And I think we can all just ignore Nico can't we?

TL;DR: I side with Apt, TRB, and Silencer here. In case it wasn't apparent.


I’m at work and don’t have time to read through everything. I just want to make it clear I’m referring to one member only.

And I was actually enjoying Brujahs and Worry’s discussion.
I've always been crazy but its kept me from going insane.
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