[Gait]

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 06:26 PM, said:

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 06:17 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 05:48 PM, said:

Try to suss out my reasoning all you like. When threatened with a very real chance of being lynched, I capitulated throwing out a hint of being roled to see if that would alter the course. When it didn't, I decided to let it be and make sure I defended my case to the end so that my most likely scum candidate would be taken seriously (I always have trouble convincing people not to ignore the "good townies" as possible scum). In the end, I revealed fully, even though I was more secure, because I saw a very real opportunity to coordinate with PG to cinch the game. I thought with one scum down, I would at least know who I guarded and if that failed I would know the identity of another fellow townie. I figured if scum were blocked, either the heal worked or I succeeded in guarding and we could work backwards from there, cock blocking scum each step of the way.

This all fell apart when I was dead wrong about Barg (who I was convinced was a stellar "townie" scum). That was my fuckup and I own it.

Regardless, you have Ven as known town. You can quibble over me all you like, but you do have 2 scum in the game still, so I would suggest we go after someone who is not possibly roled (and can save a neck tonight if we nail scum in a lynch). I don't care what you think of me. But at least approach this logically as D-Day.

In this this case I still don't see why you'd reveal right at the end of the day, indeed when Barg was already lynched. I get being convinced someone is scum but that certain...? Like you say, this is for the rest of us to suss out though.

I certainly hope to approach this rationally. To me, that means prioritising hitting scum today much more than worrying about tonight or tomorrow. If it's a close call then I'd start thinking about that, sure. But I'd be stupid to write someone off because they're claiming a role that could help in the future when we need to hit scum today.

Not stupid at all. If you are certain I am scum, you can definitely push for me, but that still means you have another scum among the remaining people. What I am saying is, logically, if there is a question of me being roled (I am), err on the side of caution since there are two scum, not just one. Don't eliminate a potential roled when you have 4 other people not roled, 1 of whom is scum.

Ultimately, it's equally bad to hit any town on D-day. We need to hit scum or the future doesn't come into play; the nature of the day is that the present is much more pressing. Like I said, for close calls I might give it more weight. But otherwise I want to go for whoever I think gives us the best chance to hit scum now. Currently, I think it's you honestly. However, I'm aware that this could also be a case of present bias and that the activity at the end of of the day might have been very nice for scum to just drift out of attention while we all get into arguments. I'll try to do a more thorough read of yesterday later today because I don't want to get tunnel-visioned onto my immediate reactions.

[Gait]

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

Gait comes in swinging at anything and everything, fingering at least five people in his burst of posting (Ven, Shel, Rikkter, Gamelon, and Kilava).

I find this to be a significant mis-representation of the facts. To summarise:

Ven: Rikkter said he found Shel scummier than Ven and voted him. So I asked Rikkter why he thought that, and what he thought about Ven's post. This was because Ven provided more in-depth argumentation for his vote, whereas Shel's vote seemed like a typical "prod and see what happens" vote. This is a prod for a response from Rikkter, not some attack on Ven.
Shel: I have no idea where he thinks I swung at him here. To quote myself: My initial feeling was that Shel's vote was a "poke and see what happens" type thing and I still buy that. Or is it just like Ven that when he says "swinging at" he means "saying their name at all in any context".
Rikkter: I said that Rikkter's vote seemed rather OMGUS and that I was happy voting when time was about to run out.
Gamelon: I voted him because he came on and dropped a drive-by vote because "why not".
Kilava: I said I wasn't sure what to make of Kilava. It was day one and I'd just arrived. Actually, the full quote regarding Kilava is:

Barg's voting behaviour is also somewhat catching my attention at the moment. He didn't vote Rikkter earlier but he's now dropping a vote on Kilava, someone who currently has zero votes, with so little time remaining. I'm not sure what to make of Kilava but it's not generally the ideal time for a new train...


So not only does Shel claim that I swung for people that I did not, he also somehow misses the person I said was actually catching my attention. It's almost like the facts don't matter to the pre-determined conclusion.

And I notice that all the people he's telling you I "swung at" are the exact people he's trying to convince... just conveniently happens to be the exact people still here, huh?

Here are all my posts from day 1, so you can judge for yourselves:

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 06:23 PM, said:

I'm here don't kill me I forgot about the game sorry!

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

The people voting for me are clearly either dumb or scum. Why would you ever go for the vote that gives town the least information possible?

Let's get this game rolling.

Vote Gamelon

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 06:37 PM, said:

Galayn Lord, on 14 August 2019 - 06:33 PM, said:

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 06:27 PM, said:

The people voting for me are clearly either dumb or scum. Why would you ever go for the vote that gives town the least information possible?

Let's get this game rolling.

Vote Gamelon

Actually failing to lynch does that. At least with a lynch you have a CF rather than a "X was modkilled for inactivity" so you know their alignment.

Discussing the game but failing to reach a lynch (which you can then discuss the reasons behind) is much more information than "let's vote for someone who hasn't realised the game has started", "ok sure why not", in terms of moving forward the next day. Talk about path of least resistance.

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 07:15 PM, said:

I'm curious as to why Shelly moreso than Ven, and your general thoughts on Ven's post.

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 08:46 PM, said:

Are people around? 1 hour left by my count.

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 09:37 PM, said:

My initial feeling was that Shel's vote was a "poke and see what happens" type thing and I still buy that. Regarding my vote on Gamelon, the very easy "why not" bandwagon vote rubbed me the wrong way.

Rikkter's reaction has been rather OMGUS and I'm happy voting there.

Remove vote
Vote Rikkter

Barg's voting behaviour is also somewhat catching my attention at the moment. He didn't vote Rikkter earlier but he's now dropping a vote on Kilava, someone who currently has zero votes, with so little time remaining. I'm not sure what to make of Kilava but it's not generally the ideal time for a new train...

Gait, on 14 August 2019 - 09:38 PM, said:

Oh, x-post with Barg changing his vote fair enough

Edit: clarity

This post has been edited by Gait: 20 August 2019 - 07:42 PM

[Gait]

Awaiting the rest of the OMGUS now.

[Venesara]

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

Gait comes in swinging at anything and everything, fingering at least five people in his burst of posting (Ven, Shel, Rikkter, Gamelon, and Kilava).

....

So not only does Shel claim that I swung for people that I did not, he also somehow misses the person I said was actually catching my attention. It's almost like the facts don't matter to the pre-determined conclusion.

And I notice that all the people he's telling you I "swung at" are the exact people he's trying to convince... just conveniently happens to be the exact people still here, huh?

Hmmm this is a big deal. The list of players matches exactly. The odds of this happening are nil. Why choose us five, Shel?

I went back and reread for context. Shel's whole d1 writeup there is only about surviving players, he doesn't mention anyone who is dead. So was Shel trying to say Gait was "swinging" at all of us plus others, or it just happened to be the same list? I could buy it if he sold it maybe but it doesn't read right. Definitely needs to be addressed though... Doesn't make sense at all.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Venesara, on 20 August 2019 - 07:56 PM, said:

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 07:38 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 06:52 PM, said:

Gait comes in swinging at anything and everything, fingering at least five people in his burst of posting (Ven, Shel, Rikkter, Gamelon, and Kilava).

....

So not only does Shel claim that I swung for people that I did not, he also somehow misses the person I said was actually catching my attention. It's almost like the facts don't matter to the pre-determined conclusion.

And I notice that all the people he's telling you I "swung at" are the exact people he's trying to convince... just conveniently happens to be the exact people still here, huh?

Hmmm this is a big deal. The list of players matches exactly. The odds of this happening are nil. Why choose us five, Shel?

I went back and reread for context. Shel's whole d1 writeup there is only about surviving players, he doesn't mention anyone who is dead. So was Shel trying to say Gait was "swinging" at all of us plus others, or it just happened to be the same list? I could buy it if he sold it maybe but it doesn't read right. Definitely needs to be addressed though... Doesn't make sense at all.

The five listed are just the ones fingered by Gait. I can post quotes if you like.


Why would I write about anyone else? The decision point is between the 4 people who could be scum: Gait, Gamelon, Kilava, and Rikkter. You obvious are inno to me and unlike Mess, I am not self voting.

[Sheltatha Lore]

I guess I should read gaits post before responding to Ven... seeing all the quotes. I listed out the people Gait discussed, and you are correct, swung at and fingered are strong words for what he considered for me and ven (I saw him asking about us in context of that "vote rikkter" post where he explains voting for gamelon, votes rikkter, says he is suspicious of barg and then expresses unsureness about kilava (all in one post).

[Sheltatha Lore]

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

Awaiting the rest of the OMGUS now.

No OMGUS. I am trying to go back through each day in the context of what we now know. Having a healer cf confirmed changes how I read Barg's posts (for one) and I have been leery of Barg since day 2 (I was watching him more closely after day 1 and saw more on day 2 that lead to my case on him day 3)

[Gait]

OK, I've had a look back over the thread but honestly everything is just screaming that Shel is scum at me.

Day one he launches the pressure on Rikkter then never follows up.
Day two he coats by with an easy bandwagon vote and some weird speculation about how killers would totally be playing.
Day three, where to even start. I've already explained in depth why I think the reveal reeks. He also forces the Barghast lynch by flatly refusing to change his vote. To quote Ven "if you can't vote to get a lynch it calls into question your whole playstyle, really".
Day four he has so far spent sucking up to Ven, telling us why it's only logical to treat him as if he's off the table, and completely misconstruing what I've posted - which I'm sure is totally unrelated to the fact that I called BS on his reveal.

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 08:19 PM, said:

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 07:41 PM, said:

Awaiting the rest of the OMGUS now.

No OMGUS.

No OMGUS but asking Rikkter what he thinks about Ven's case on him = swinging at Ven btw.

[Gait]

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 08:03 PM, said:

The five listed are just the ones fingered by Gait. I can post quotes if you like.

They clearly aren't though. You didn't even mention Barghast and I didn't remotely finger some of the others. You can see this easily by the quotes that you didn't post to back up your point. It's a misrepresentation of facts. It isn't a matter of using "strong words" and it's ridiculous to try and walk it back as it if is (nevermind what that says about your analysis or your priorities).

[Rikkter]

Ok I’m backed and reasonably sobered up

[Sheltatha Lore]

I guess I should just shut up then, huh? Still rereading sporadically on my phone as the day goes, but obviously doing a bang up job.

[Rikkter]

It was dumb to reveal but at least we PId ven
With Barg out I need to rethink the game. I’ll reread before I post something else.

Warnings there may be drink but you’ll be able to tell when that kicks in

[Gamelon]

Well, at least if Gait and Shel are partners they are really putting in the hours to distance from each other

For the record, I am not discounting Shel at all (or Rikkter for that matter), and I’m now going to start a reread. The reason why I didn’t like a Shel lynch yesterday is because it seemed the exact same situation as Galayn Lord’s lynch - a low poster being chosen because they were low-hanging fruit. But Shel’s really...come out of their shell today.

[Gait]

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:

I guess I should just shut up then, huh? Still rereading sporadically on my phone as the day goes, but obviously doing a bang up job.

That certainly seems to have been your approach to dealing with pressure so far.

[Gait]

Gamelon, on 20 August 2019 - 09:27 PM, said:

Shel’s really...come out of their shell today.

[Venesara]

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not obvious. I figured my arguments at that point in the game would have stood up better of I was lynched and proven to be town (no question of being a symp when you are roled town) and until one of the scum were killed, I was essentially useless alive. So I made my case and hoped my death would break the typical "cannot lynch someone for being good town" mantra that I always hear.

I'm struggling to see a town player choosing sacrifice one of our few lynches on the hope that people decide that you must have been right because you're town. Given the size of the game it's so unlikely the symp question would even come up, as you've even said, but that was part of your thinking? And then instead you reveal now. Urgh.

This is unfortunately really true. Saying "I'm not switching" is great if you *actually* know something, but otherwise you gotta remember we win and lose as a team. Forcing your team into shitty decisions is bad play. And in this case, you ended up wrong. That was a bummer, dude.

A lot of Gait's points are landing right now. Shel has always been shady, the whole thing with Barg/Kilava/etc that had them yelling at each other most of the game. Shel came out of that looking the worst, for whatever reason, and the reveal is not helping.

The problem, Shel, is that you do look scummy, and even though that's how roled town often come off, you're playing it tough like if we don't believe your reveal then you don't care. Isn't that just what you said Gait did? He just voted but didn't care who got lynched? It feels like that. You should want us to believe you, and you seem to disagree. I don't know how that helps town.

Finally I read a lot of the recent posts about your ability and a couple problems -

You talk a lot about gaining info on who is scum and who is not by using your guard. You realize that is not how guarding works, right? Usually, you do not find out if your action succeeds or not, period. Only on thread perhaps would you see the effects. If you guarded an RI you would gain no information. If the killers are paired, it makes sense that you can't use it till one is dead because even if you guard a killer there is still the other killer out there who has a night action - usually, this doesn't prevent a kill unless you somehow guarded them both. So you still can't say who's scum or not.

I am sorry to mechanics dump on you but this seems like a major oversight. It does seem like you're saying we should keep you alive so you can be a finder for us. But you revealed guard, not finder, and too early as well. Any comments on your play here?

It sometimes reads like bad roled town but it just as easily seems like scum fake-revealing and out of their depth...

Also Rikkter has been gone awhile.

When I looked at all of Kilava's posts in a row it feels like they are coasting super hard. Is this just me? For so many posts the actual contribution is low.

Gait has played really well and has a defense for most angles you could attack him at. I find it hard to pick out posts he's made that stand out or aren't backed up, but there just aren't many.

[Gamelon]

Venesara, on 20 August 2019 - 09:47 PM, said:

Gait, on 20 August 2019 - 04:41 PM, said:

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

Not obvious. I figured my arguments at that point in the game would have stood up better of I was lynched and proven to be town (no question of being a symp when you are roled town) and until one of the scum were killed, I was essentially useless alive. So I made my case and hoped my death would break the typical "cannot lynch someone for being good town" mantra that I always hear.

I'm struggling to see a town player choosing sacrifice one of our few lynches on the hope that people decide that you must have been right because you're town. Given the size of the game it's so unlikely the symp question would even come up, as you've even said, but that was part of your thinking? And then instead you reveal now. Urgh.

This is unfortunately really true. Saying "I'm not switching" is great if you *actually* know something, but otherwise you gotta remember we win and lose as a team. Forcing your team into shitty decisions is bad play. And in this case, you ended up wrong. That was a bummer, dude.

A lot of Gait's points are landing right now. Shel has always been shady, the whole thing with Barg/Kilava/etc that had them yelling at each other most of the game. Shel came out of that looking the worst, for whatever reason, and the reveal is not helping.

The problem, Shel, is that you do look scummy, and even though that's how roled town often come off, you're playing it tough like if we don't believe your reveal then you don't care. Isn't that just what you said Gait did? He just voted but didn't care who got lynched? It feels like that. You should want us to believe you, and you seem to disagree. I don't know how that helps town.

Finally I read a lot of the recent posts about your ability and a couple problems -

You talk a lot about gaining info on who is scum and who is not by using your guard. You realize that is not how guarding works, right? Usually, you do not find out if your action succeeds or not, period. Only on thread perhaps would you see the effects. If you guarded an RI you would gain no information. If the killers are paired, it makes sense that you can't use it till one is dead because even if you guard a killer there is still the other killer out there who has a night action - usually, this doesn't prevent a kill unless you somehow guarded them both. So you still can't say who's scum or not.

I am sorry to mechanics dump on you but this seems like a major oversight. It does seem like you're saying we should keep you alive so you can be a finder for us. But you revealed guard, not finder, and too early as well. Any comments on your play here?

It sometimes reads like bad roled town but it just as easily seems like scum fake-revealing and out of their depth...

Also Rikkter has been gone awhile.

When I looked at all of Kilava's posts in a row it feels like they are coasting super hard. Is this just me? For so many posts the actual contribution is low.

Gait has played really well and has a defense for most angles you could attack him at. I find it hard to pick out posts he's made that stand out or aren't backed up, but there just aren't many.

I noticed this too. I was wondering why Shel was talking about putting in a provisional guard and getting information off it, but I was also travelling at the time and thought that maybe I missed something.

[Venesara]

Sheltatha Lore, on 20 August 2019 - 09:23 PM, said:

I guess I should just shut up then, huh? Still rereading sporadically on my phone as the day goes, but obviously doing a bang up job.

Don't fall into this same GL bullshit. Just quit doing it, if you really are the guard then man the fuck up like you care about town winning instead of just staying alive for another day. One of the worst parts of your reveal is the "Oh, you have to keep me around till the very end of the game or my ability won't work." Convenient.

And no, you should not sulk and stop playing because no one believes you, or whatever.

[Gamelon]

I suppose the info gained would be if Barghast had come up scum and then there was no kill (because with one scum left, a guard could work), but as you say, that info would be seen on thread, not also given to the guard as a message, usually.

[Sheltatha Lore]

Oh, don't mistake my not caring if I got lynched as not caring who got lynched. Fine distinction. I stuck to my guns on Barg because in my experience, the best town players are scum (often helped by knowing the layout of the game, who is scum who is not). I gambled everything on that case. And it is true I look scummy and low post because of a roled status and am very aware of that self made perception. Not much I can do about it now and I did what I thought I could when playing in earlier days.

So now, flub ups make it worse for me, and this is dday so all important. Hence my abashed play and comments.