[Prazec Goul]

I am back from a nice weekend, I'll read up. I am not going to heal Ven tonight, I'll heal someone else. It's possible scum will leave me around to create some sort of wifom but it'll be risky for them if I guess right.

[Prazec Goul]

 Rikkter, on 16 August 2019 - 02:09 PM, said:

Now Prazec's reveal and the no nk are very interesting. The Op did not mention other roles. It clearly stated that there were 2 killers and gave the RI pm. If Prazec is a killer, he could be just as convinced that Ven is town as he would already know that Ven was not the other killer. Very convenient to claim healer then and PI himself for the rest of the game.

"If Prazec is Killer".. If I was I would a) know the other killer and b. know whether or not Ven is scum or town.




So why the fuck are you saying "I could be just as convinced"? Sounds very strange.




Urgh. I don't like this post.

If I was scum then I have what, sacrificed a night by withholding a kill, not knowing if there is a town role revealed a role for myself that "could" be counter claimed, to try and make it to end game.

I hope scum keep me alive to try and muddy the waters but the risk they're taking is me healing their targets and giving us a better chance.

[Prazec Goul]

Quick question whilst catching up, has anyone referred to themselves as something different than Motato? Cause I am not Motato, I am Tomato. Even tongue in cheek or something.

[Prazec Goul]

 Rikkter, on 16 August 2019 - 05:07 PM, said:

 Kilava, on 16 August 2019 - 04:37 PM, said:

I'm here, sorry I wasn't able to concentrate much on the game yesterday because of real life stuff, but I think I can manage from now on. Ever felt like you're going insane because you've only slept 1 hour for 48 hours and you're so tired you can't go to sleep? I finally got some sleep thank the Great Motato Head.

I can totally sympathize. I have the same problem and have cried about it before. I feel like there is something just missing in my brain that won't give the proper signal to start sleeping no matter how tired that I am. Have you tried sleeping pills? They help most of the time.

This sounds strange but if lie on my side facing towards the middle of the bed, from the left hand side of the bed then I can stay awake for ages. However if I face towards the outside I'll be asleep in minutes. So to recap, on my right shoulder, right cheek to pillow, stay awake thinking. Left Shoulder down, left cheek down, sleep.

[Prazec Goul]

We have 2 brackets of players in one bracket we have Gait, Kilava and Barghast, all with many posts, lots of thoughts on thread, quite active and available. In my opinion one of these is leading scum. The second bracket we have Rikkter, Gamelon and Sheltatha. One of these is low lying scum.

I think we'll have greater success at finding scum by looking at the actions and game play of the second bracket as there is less to comb through and their actions weigh more.

[Prazec Goul]

Rikkter is the first to get serious, the first one to lay a vote day one.

 Rikkter, on 14 August 2019 - 03:48 PM, said:

Well, we have a few hours, so perhaps a vote will summon him if he's lurking.

vote Gait

Gamelon joins that vote and now Gait is sitting on 2 votes.

Could or would either of these two players be Gait's partner? Have a chat with him via messenger, vote because of absence knowing they can remove when he arrives? If that was the case it'd implicate Rikkter more than Gamelon because Rikkter could have voted anywhere whereas Gamelon as Gait's partner doesn't fit in that situation. Even if they are discussion things off thread, does Gamelon see the opportunity to distance themselves that quickly?

Kilava doesn't join in and mentions a pssible no lynch not being a bad idea at this stage. That's a bit of a town lean.

 Rikkter, on 14 August 2019 - 04:56 PM, said:

I actually would prefer to lynch if he doesn't show up, on the off chance that he is a killer and his partner is holding out hope that he'll sign in.

This confuses me. If he doesn't show up we lynch to get the CF, what does the last bit have to do with anything, or rather it shows Rik is thinking about the partner to Gait. Is he talking about himself knowing Gait will be here soon. Just speculation right now.

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

Oooh I get what you're saying.

Even if Gait's partner was not going to vote that'd still leave a lot of town ready to do the job.

[Prazec Goul]

Sheltatha enters the fray

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 05:04 PM, said:

 Rikkter, on 14 August 2019 - 03:33 PM, said:

Poo… nothing but penis size and dragonsecks to go on so far today. If Gait doesn't arrive should we just vote him since he'll be modkilled anyway? It would suck to lose two townies in 1 day.

How does this even make sense? If there is nothing to go on, why not pressure someone else to see how they respond?

Vote Rikkter

They call out Rik for their reasoning or for voting their partner?

Now to throw in a quick thought, Rik being the first to get serious and vote, and get involved with the thread early day one, getting into the mix of things as it were makes me believe he is not scum avoiding notice.

 Rikkter, on 14 August 2019 - 05:46 PM, said:

Because, if there is a modkill. PLUS a lynch, we run the risk of losing 2 town on day 1, since day 2 lynches rarely hit scum. Add a kill if the killers are successful, and we are already down 3 with a small group.

Now your reaction reads that you are either a symp that I doubt we have the numbers for, or a killer trying to protect his partner.

Of course, you could just be stupid, and you didn't get the math involved.

 Barghast, on 14 August 2019 - 06:01 PM, said:

Except your math is shit, because not voting Gait doesn't imply lynching someone else.
A little bit jumpy, aren't you Rikkter?

Barghast and Sheltatha could be a thing. So if we lynch Sheltatha after that big post of theirs pointing to Barghast we are supposed to think they're not partners. This is quite a big connection I feel.

[Prazec Goul]

 Venesara, on 14 August 2019 - 06:24 PM, said:

I find this exchange weird. Not the topic itself but like, what is with this explanation? And then Kilava suddenly understands basic M&P mafia?

I don't disagree with lynch v modkill necessarily but this is pretty specific speculation about the killers' actions, reasons, and thought process..... WIFOM already, on day 1?

What does voting Gait for modkill have to do with Gait's partner? Why are you discussing Gait's partner's reasons like they matter? Why are you discussing potential scum reasoning out loud on day 1?

Vote Rikkter

Possible reason for Ven's Target, but I still feel the killers were going for the low posters to start with and on this particular night they targeted Okral Lom.

[Prazec Goul]

Guys, Rikkter/Kilava or Barghast/Sheltatha but just read the back and forth's during the end of day.

 Path-Shaper, on 14 August 2019 - 08:50 PM, said:

It is Day 1. 55 minutes remaining
10 Players still alive: Barghast, Gait, Galayn Lord, Gamelon, Kilava, Okral Lom, Prazec Goul, Rikkter, Sheltatha Lore, Venesara

6 votes to lynch, 5 votes to go to night.

2 Votes for Gamelon ( Prazec Goul, Gait )
1 Vote for Gait ( Gamelon )
1 Vote for Sheltatha Lore ( Rikkter )
2 Votes for Rikkter ( Venesara, Sheltatha Lore )

Players not voted: Barghast, Galayn Lord, Kilava, Okral Lom

 Barghast, on 14 August 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

I'm here and I also find this suspicious:

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 05:02 PM, said:

 Rikkter, on 14 August 2019 - 04:56 PM, said:

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 04:54 PM, said:

It's either vote for gait if he's about to get modkilled or we could vote no lynch I guess - How much time until he's modkilled? Path-Shaper can you confirm?

I actually would prefer to lynch if he doesn't show up, on the off chance that he is a killer and his partner is holding out hope that he'll sign in.

Oooh I get what you're saying.

Rikkter's suggestion wasn't particularly useful. Their reasoning was also weak. Latching onto that stinks.

Vote Kilava

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

I figured Rikkter's vote for Gait was useless given how a modkill was coming and a pressure vote just seemed over the top for someone "encouraging" participation. Typically, one votes for present players to garner a reaction, which my vote on Rikkter certainly did. 1 vote out of 6 needed to lynch and Rikkter loses it and follows up with a OMGUS vote, claiming I had no reason to vote for him. Amusing really.

Another interesting action popped up. Gait went for Gamelon not Rikkter, making sure Gamelon had the most momentum behind him after the initial joke vote.

So right now, Rikkter went from rationalizing a vote on a probable modkill to accusing me of symping and not doing proper maths. I argue that if you really want day 1 pressuring, vote for present people and see how others react. Rikkter reacted badly with little pressure. I now would like to see how a lynch on him comes out. Need I say more?

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:09 PM, said:

I would remind everyone that if we do not lynch tonight, we lose a critical opportunity to find information. A game with 10 players will go fast.

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:09 PM, said:

While I agree that Rikkter has come off a bit aggressive, Sheltatha's vote followed by Barghast defending Sheltatha and also not voting makes me wonder? Even if you disagree with Rikkter's reasoning, there are obviously more than one way of putting pressure, and at least vote for someone you find jumpy, as Barghast called Rikkter. If Barghast had followed that up with a vote, I would have been less suspicious - as it stands he comes off as wanting to derail without committing to anything.

Vote Sheltatha Lore

[Prazec Goul]

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:15 PM, said:

No I definitely understood what he was saying. Pretending it wasn't a reasonable way of thinking is weird. You really don't get what he was trying to do? Even if you disagree? That's all I was saying. he's definitely been a bit aggressive though, but I find your defense of Sheltatha weirder.

 Barghast, on 14 August 2019 - 09:19 PM, said:

I see what they were saying. I disagree with the usefulness of it. But that's not my point. What bothers me is explaining this through potential intentions of partner scum. It's a miracle Rikkter didn't hurt themselves with that reach and you reacted as if they were providing good insight. I don't like it.

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:20 PM, said:

Besides the fact that your love triangle includes 3 scum in a 10 person game?

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:28 PM, said:

So wait, you understand that one should go after someone if they defend gait, but to do that you have to give them a reason to, and that's what I thought Rikkter meant, or am I missing something? I'm confused why you don't see that tbh. Ofcourse Rikkter could be messing with us and be scum, but in that case I'm actually retarded.

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

That is what I was asking you. Your scenario assumes I am scum rushing to aid Gait and that Barghast defending me makes him number 3.

Now I amsure I missed bits out but holy fuck.




Something is happening here and it is definitely butting heads.

[Prazec Goul]

The shining light here is that Kilava votes for Rikkter, separating them somewhat. Kilava's point about Shelly going for Rikkter because of the vote on Gait, and that Barghast defended Sheltatha looks pretty incriminating. Combine that with recent events and I am most certainly wanting to vote Sheltatha above all.

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:45 PM, said:

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:40 PM, said:

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:30 PM, said:

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:26 PM, said:

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:24 PM, said:

 Barghast, on 14 August 2019 - 09:19 PM, said:

I see what they were saying. I disagree with the usefulness of it. But that's not my point. What bothers me is explaining this through potential intentions of partner scum. It's a miracle Rikkter didn't hurt themselves with that reach and you reacted as if they were providing good insight. I don't like it.

The way I interpreted it was that Rikkter was putting pressure by voting for Gait and seeing if scum would freak out. As it happens Sheltatha reacted strongly, and then when you came after Rikkter and not voting for him, it's a clear vote for Sheltatha. Saying you don't like it doesn't really mean much, since you're not explaining what is wrong with the reasoning. Can you explain why? I'm big enough to admit if I missed something, so come on explain.

Besides the fact that your love triangle includes 3 scum in a 10 person game?

LOL what how do you get to 3 scum? What kind of maths is that?

That is what I was asking you. Your scenario assumes I am scum rushing to aid Gait and that Barghast defending me makes him number 3.

Oh, no you're confusing what Rikkter is saying with why I voted for you - I only said I understood what Rikkter meant - what bothered me was that Barghast was defending you - I did think it was possible that scum would react if Gait was a partner, but it's much more likely that they would use the vote on gait to go after Rikkter, just like you have, because it's easy to attack someone that is putting pressure. Barghast defending you only solidified that thinking for me. Are you following me?

That makes more sense than someone rushing to save Gait. But you realize this view you have constructed now shows that either you side with Rikkter thinking voting for a modkill is "pressure" somehow or that you understand Rikkter's vote was useless and stupid, which should be in the consideration for scum behavior (aka, useful appearing behavior that is actual useless or worse, destructive).

 Kilava, on 14 August 2019 - 09:46 PM, said:

We do need a lynch, so I don't have a choice.

remove vote

vote Rikkter

[Prazec Goul]

So all that activity towards end of day and those speaking during the first part of day 2 are Gait, GL, Rikkter, myself, Gamelon. Then Barghast, Ven and Kilava. Then Sheltatha. Now, the wind has been blowing and people have been focusing towards GL

Barghast and Kilava are butting heads some and everyone is interacting with each other, then comes this nugget of gold. A vote for GL with no reasoning but more importantly for me, Sheltatha is telling us scum will want to be separate from each other, not linkable. Do not look for defending (which Kilava did with Barghast/Sheltatha) so what do we make of Shell's most recent post?

 Sheltatha Lore, on 15 August 2019 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ok, caught up. I like the reasoning on GL and see very little he has done to change the case against him. Useless townie versus coasting scum.

Let me say (with the risk of changing gameplay from here on out) that paired scum are more likely to do everything they can to be separate from each other and not linkable. If one scum goes down, the other does not want to be connected in any significant way. Thus, I do not think that looking for someone defending another person is all that useful of a strategy in this sort of game (and no, I do not buy that a 10 person game would have a symp).

I think that GL is a good bet for today, but I still want to hear from a few of the other accused alts.

Vote GL

 Sheltatha Lore, on 17 August 2019 - 09:14 PM, said:

This is going to be an unpopular post, but I want you all to hear me out and think logically about it. I will try to keep it concise and high yield, and will discuss more as needed.


Conclusion: Barghast is scum.

Theory: Scum's essential traits, in order of importance, include:
( 1 ) Avoiding notice
( 2 ) Weakening town
( 3 ) Protecting other scum

Evidence: Barghast is a fully engaged, useful town member. He/she provides lynch targets, pressures people, and argues for/against cases. This is stereotypical of engaged town (or scum). So why Barghast?

Day 1: Begins by backing (not leading) the pressure against Rikkter, but also provides an alternative target, Kilava. Paints Rikkter as "jumpy" and accuses Kilava of "latching" onto Rikkter's reasoning. Votes Kilava first, but moves over to the Rikkter train as #4 (middle of the line).

Interesting reasoning, especially when Barghast says this (underline for emphasis):
"I see what they were saying. I disagree with the usefulness of it. But that's not my point. What bothers me is explaining this through potential intentions of partner scum. It's a miracle Rikkter didn't hurt themselves with that reach and you reacted as if they were providing good insight. I don't like it. "
The underlined describes what Barghast him/herself did with their case.


Day 2: At start of day, Barghast maintains suspicion of Rikkter and Kilava, but also adds on two other candidates, PG and GL. Does not immediately vote for any of the four.

Middle of day 2, see the following quotes:
"Based on D1, I'd be leaning towards Rikkter and Sheltatha being scum, but Gamelon's drive-by definitely pings the radar too. Moving on to D2."
"I'm currently considering Kilava, Gamelon, or Galayn for a vote. Not gonna do it yet because I don't want to put Galayn at L-2 and Kilava hasn't spoken today yet. But I'm around for a few more hours and planning to cast a vote before bedtime. I should also be around for the timeout. "

Barghast after this stream of consciousness does not vote. In fact, Kilava points out the lack of vote, and Barghast responds by saying they voted on D1 (not D2):
"I'd love you to explain the reasons that still stand, because the entire post in which you cast your vote against Sheltatha is about me. You also use me not voting as an argument, except at this point I have already voted - against you."

Barghast latter votes Kilava, and does not vote on the GL lynch train, claiming to wait till closer to time out.


Day 3: Barghast is the FIRST to speculate on roled town and nip-in-the-bud any speculation that his/her delayed vote for GL was scummy. Barghast proceeds to discuss many suspects, usually commenting on other's cases and thoughts, asking questions and for input from other people. Barghast is integral to the life and movement of the thread, however, provides no vote or central focus to his/her accusations. Again, Barghast plays the very fine line of being helpful, thoughtful, and directing without being outright scummy or overbearing.

Summary: I think Barghast says it best his/herself (bold and underline added):
"Ugh, Prazec's stream of consciousness puts me on the fence. He throws out a lot of shit to see what sticks. That looks way off to me because I like to do when I'm scum "


Vote Barghast

Hey look everyone, Barghast is not my partner, look I voted for him, he could not possibly be my partner.

[Prazec Goul]

Right I am convinced but I know something else niggles at me and it is in one of Barghast's posts.

[Prazec Goul]

 Barghast, on 18 August 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

First, my fuck-up. I was reading Sheltatha's post and thinking, what are you on about with me pushing for Rikkter. Apart from the D1 jab about them being jumpy I never read too much into Rikkter. But then I saw this (emphasis added):

I'd be leaning towards Rikkter and Sheltatha being scum


"I'm currently considering Kilava, Gamelon, or Galayn for a vote.

I am an idiot. I meant to write I'm leaning towards KILAVA AND SHELTATHA.

There are bundles of stuff that I am thinking about. Firstly, who cares that you made a typo with names? Not me, not until now at least. So you were meant to write Kilava and Sheltatha but you'd vote for Kilava, Gamelon and Galayn instead? No Shel on that list. Easy to put your partner in a list but lower down pecking order, still maintains some distance when called upon?




I don't buy anything you say anymore to be fair and I now have blinkers on.

[Prazec Goul]

Vote Sheltatha Lore

[Gait]

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

I am back from a nice weekend, I'll read up. I am not going to heal Ven tonight, I'll heal someone else. It's possible scum will leave me around to create some sort of wifom but it'll be risky for them if I guess right.

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

I hope scum keep me alive to try and muddy the waters but the risk they're taking is me healing their targets and giving us a better chance.

I don't like these kinds of posts. It reads too much like setting up for a particular future (which should be unknown), it's totally speculative and I don't see it helping town.

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

Quick question whilst catching up, has anyone referred to themselves as something different than Motato? Cause I am not Motato, I am Tomato. Even tongue in cheek or something.

I'm not sure why you'd even put this out there as town. Do you want to out other roled town players?

[Prazec Goul]

 Gait, on 19 August 2019 - 12:01 PM, said:

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:12 AM, said:

I am back from a nice weekend, I'll read up. I am not going to heal Ven tonight, I'll heal someone else. It's possible scum will leave me around to create some sort of wifom but it'll be risky for them if I guess right.

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:27 AM, said:

I hope scum keep me alive to try and muddy the waters but the risk they're taking is me healing their targets and giving us a better chance.

I don't like these kinds of posts. It reads too much like setting up for a particular future (which should be unknown), it's totally speculative and I don't see it helping town.

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 10:30 AM, said:

Quick question whilst catching up, has anyone referred to themselves as something different than Motato? Cause I am not Motato, I am Tomato. Even tongue in cheek or something.

I'm not sure why you'd even put this out there as town. Do you want to out other roled town players?

honestly I don't think there are other roled town. I was thinking in terms of scum slipping up. If asked a question I like to try and answer it Gait

[Gait]

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 11:47 AM, said:

then comes this nugget of gold. A vote for GL with no reasoning but more importantly for me, Sheltatha is telling us scum will want to be separate from each other, not linkable. Do not look for defending (which Kilava did with Barghast/Sheltatha) so what do we make of Shell's most recent post?

 Sheltatha Lore, on 15 August 2019 - 07:26 PM, said:

Ok, caught up. I like the reasoning on GL and see very little he has done to change the case against him. Useless townie versus coasting scum.

Let me say (with the risk of changing gameplay from here on out) that paired scum are more likely to do everything they can to be separate from each other and not linkable. If one scum goes down, the other does not want to be connected in any significant way. Thus, I do not think that looking for someone defending another person is all that useful of a strategy in this sort of game (and no, I do not buy that a 10 person game would have a symp).

I think that GL is a good bet for today, but I still want to hear from a few of the other accused alts.

Vote GL

I agree here for sure, I really dislike this piece of speculation from Shel.

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

So you were meant to write Kilava and Sheltatha but you'd vote for Kilava, Gamelon and Galayn instead? No Shel on that list. Easy to put your partner in a list but lower down pecking order, still maintains some distance when called upon?

This is a good catch.

One of the things that has really been bugging me is how quickly and how completely the pressure on Rikkter disappeared. Partly this is because of the case on GL (and GL does us no favours with the self-vote here). But it's also like none of the people really pushing that train seemed to care at all to pursue it. Ven talks about it some but ultimately goes strongly for GL which I can't criticise. Barghast mentions "Rikkter's meltdown was weird and over the top" but Rikkter doesn't make the list of people he would vote. Shel doesn't even mention him despite the pressure he put on day 1.

Clearly I'm not saying all three are scum, but I do think something weird is going on here. I liked this behaviour on day 1, which to me makes it stranger than none of them seemed at all bothered to follow up. It makes the votes on day 1 look like a matter of convenience rather than any real commitment.

[Gait]

I'm going to

Vote Sheltatha Lore

I don't like the easy hop onto GL or the random speculation that goes with it. I liked how you got the game moving with your Rikkter vote on day one. I don't like that since then you have shown entirely zero interest in the case that you launched.

A few quotes from towards the end of day one:

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 08:56 PM, said:

Typically, one votes for present players to garner a reaction, which my vote on Rikkter certainly did. 1 vote out of 6 needed to lynch and Rikkter loses it and follows up with a OMGUS vote, claiming I had no reason to vote for him. Amusing really.

[...]

So right now, Rikkter went from rationalizing a vote on a probable modkill to accusing me of symping and not doing proper maths. I argue that if you really want day 1 pressuring, vote for present people and see how others react. Rikkter reacted badly with little pressure. I now would like to see how a lynch on him comes out. Need I say more?

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:09 PM, said:

I would remind everyone that if we do not lynch tonight, we lose a critical opportunity to find information. A game with 10 players will go fast.

 Sheltatha Lore, on 14 August 2019 - 09:45 PM, said:

But you realize this view you have constructed now shows that either you side with Rikkter thinking voting for a modkill is "pressure" somehow or that you understand Rikkter's vote was useless and stupid, which should be in the consideration for scum behavior (aka, useful appearing behavior that is actual useless or worse, destructive).

Since then, nothing. Not even a response to being called a fucktard by Rikkter. I'm curious why.

[Barghast]

 Prazec Goul, on 19 August 2019 - 11:57 AM, said:

 Barghast, on 18 August 2019 - 11:29 AM, said:

First, my fuck-up. I was reading Sheltatha's post and thinking, what are you on about with me pushing for Rikkter. Apart from the D1 jab about them being jumpy I never read too much into Rikkter. But then I saw this (emphasis added):

I'd be leaning towards Rikkter and Sheltatha being scum


"I'm currently considering Kilava, Gamelon, or Galayn for a vote.

I am an idiot. I meant to write I'm leaning towards KILAVA AND SHELTATHA.

There are bundles of stuff that I am thinking about. Firstly, who cares that you made a typo with names? Not me, not until now at least. So you were meant to write Kilava and Sheltatha but you'd vote for Kilava, Gamelon and Galayn instead? No Shel on that list. Easy to put your partner in a list but lower down pecking order, still maintains some distance when called upon?




I don't buy anything you say anymore to be fair and I now have blinkers on.

I already addressed this.

Quote

I was mostly keeping Shel at the back of my head as a likely partner to Kilava if they flip scum. Didn't pursue it because guilt-by-association is a weak case before you prove the associate but worth taking another look.

As for who would care I meant one player but wrote about another, that seems like a pretty silly question, but I have also answered it already.

EDIT
Grammar

This post has been edited by Barghast: 19 August 2019 - 01:30 PM