[Aptorian]

Oink, oink, Tiste!

[Maark Abbott]

Tiste Simeon, on 28 January 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 28 January 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

Pride vs. police has been a thing since the very beginning.
Pride commemorates a riot literally against the police.
Fuck the pigs.

Huh. Useful contribution...

At least buy me dinner first, Tiste.

[Obdigore]

Tiste Simeon, on 28 January 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 28 January 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

Pride vs. police has been a thing since the very beginning.
Pride commemorates a riot literally against the police.
Fuck the pigs.

Huh. Useful contribution...

I mean let's be honest here. Most police are very Authoritarian and do not welcome change. For many cultures, especially western cultures, the Pride movement is a change where people aren't hiding what consenting adults do anymore. It's no different than the police clamping down on the de-segregation movement in the US. They are both civil rights movements, and many police forces have been extremely hostile towards them.

[Kanese S's]

Tiste Simeon, on 28 January 2020 - 06:44 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 28 January 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

Pride vs. police has been a thing since the very beginning.
Pride commemorates a riot literally against the police.
Fuck the pigs.

Huh. Useful contribution...

Pride commemorates the Stonewall Riots, an uprising prompted by police raids on gay bars.

Historically police, not just in New York, have been the most direct face of oppression of LGBT people.

As recently as the 90s the SFPD routinely beat the shit out of people for being gay.

You don't see how many in the LGBT community might be very uncomfortable with highly visible police presence at Pride events?

[Tiste Simeon]

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

[Kanese S's]

Tiste Simeon, on 29 January 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

Many of the older folks in the LGBT community remember being harassed and abused by the cops. It's really not that long ago. It's disrespectful both to them and the victims who are dead now to have conspicuous police presence at Pride events.

I understand that any large event in an urban area is realistically going to have some cops there, but they should be as inconspicuous as possible in light of their historical role as the oppressors of the community... oppression that is the very spark of the Pride movement in the first place.

[QuickTidal]

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 07:33 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 29 January 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

Many of the older folks in the LGBT community remember being harassed and abused by the cops. It's really not that long ago. It's disrespectful both to them and the victims who are dead now to have conspicuous police presence at Pride events.

I understand that any large event in an urban area is realistically going to have some cops there, but they should be as inconspicuous as possible in light of their historical role as the oppressors of the community... oppression that is the very spark of the Pride movement in the first place.

Devils Advocate/has family/friends in law enforcement: Pride events in this day and age are not just a street parade and a few scattered events, it's a damned near city-dominating week-long party, with tonnes of people from local and abroad. In Toronto it spills out over out most major street and beyond for a long long period of time. Between 1 and 2 million people attended the most recent Pride events in Toronto. That's a massive logistical nightmare of an event...you literally CANNOT have them be "be as inconspicuous as possible"...they are either immersed in such an event throughout...or they aren't a functioning body that protects the safety and security of that event. End of. This can't be both ways, and that's on (and not a bad way) the success of Pride becoming what it is now, compared to its origins.

I understand the contention, and history (there is a great CBC Uncover podcast about it)...but there is no way for the police to do their jobs and be inconspicuous at Pride in any major city.

[Kanese S's]

QuickTidal, on 30 January 2020 - 07:57 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 07:33 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 29 January 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

Many of the older folks in the LGBT community remember being harassed and abused by the cops. It's really not that long ago. It's disrespectful both to them and the victims who are dead now to have conspicuous police presence at Pride events.

I understand that any large event in an urban area is realistically going to have some cops there, but they should be as inconspicuous as possible in light of their historical role as the oppressors of the community... oppression that is the very spark of the Pride movement in the first place.

Devils Advocate/has family/friends in law enforcement: Pride events in this day and age are not just a street parade and a few scattered events, it's a damned near city-dominating week-long party, with tonnes of people from local and abroad. In Toronto it spills out over out most major street and beyond for a long long period of time. Between 1 and 2 million people attended the most recent Pride events in Toronto. That's a massive logistical nightmare of an event...you literally CANNOT have them be "be as inconspicuous as possible"...they are either immersed in such an event throughout...or they aren't a functioning body that protects the safety and security of that event. End of. This can't be both ways, and that's on (and not a bad way) the success of Pride becoming what it is now, compared to its origins.

I understand the contention, and history (there is a great CBC Uncover podcast about it)...but there is no way for the police to do their jobs and be inconspicuous at Pride in any major city.

I'm talking about shit like being in the actual parade. I understand that as a major event there is going to be some police presence (regrettably). Police shouldn't be pretending that they weren't the arm of oppression against the LGBT community.
I also don't give a shit if people have family/friends in law enforcement.

[Tiste Simeon]

But if we're ever to move on surely the police trying to integrate and become better is a welcome move? Or would you suggest gay people should never become cops?

You won't find many police officers now who think that the way the LGBT community was treated was OK in any way shape or form.

And don't get me wrong I'm not advocating for a "just forget about it" approach by any means - we need to learn from our ugly history, that's basically what the inquiries into the Brixton riots and the Steven Lawrence murder said on the issue of BAME communities and the police. It is very much something the police in the UK are aware of and they really go into it deeply in training.

I get why people do get upset because of what happened before. It is awful to consider. And I can't comment on the police in any other country. But all the gay officers I know are both proud to be officers and to be gay.

I don't see why the pride of today shouldn't be a) a celebration of how far society has come and b ) a joining together of diverse communities to look forwards to the further building (or perhaps mending) of bridges.

This post has been edited by Tiste Simeon: 30 January 2020 - 08:06 PM

[Kanese S's]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 January 2020 - 08:06 PM, said:

But if we're ever to move on surely the police trying to integrate and become better is a welcome move? Or would you suggest gay people should never become cops?

You won't find many police officers now who think that the way the LGBT community was treated was OK in any way shape or form.

And don't get me wrong I'm not advocating for a "just forget about it" approach by any means - we need to learn from our ugly history, that's basically what the inquiries into the Brixton riots and the Steven Lawrence murder said on the issue of BAME communities and the police. It is very much something the police in the UK are aware of and they really go into it deeply in training.

I get why people do get upset because of what happened before. It is awful to consider. And I can't comment on the police in any other country. But all the gay officers I know are both proud to be officers and to be gay.

I don't see why the pride of today shouldn't be a) a celebration of how far society has come and b ) a joining together of diverse communities to look forwards to the further building (or perhaps mending) of bridges.

First, I would suggest that no one should become cops under our present system in my country.

Second, yeah, actually, the police can still be very, very homophobic and especially transphobic.

Finally, I am an American, and while I know that this forum is international, when I'm talking about the police, I am talking about the ones that I interact with. I have no experiences with British police, though I am led to believe they are somewhat better, so I can't really comment on them.

[Tiste Simeon]

For some reason I thought you were British. In that case yeah I do get where you're coming from. I think our training is very different to what those guys have. Very different world...

[Kanese S's]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 January 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

For some reason I thought you were British. In that case yeah I do get where you're coming from. I think our training is very different to what those guys have. Very different world...

I have never been British, lol.
In fact, the only time I've ever spent in the UK was at Heathrow Airport.

[Obdigore]

Tiste Simeon, on 30 January 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

For some reason I thought you were British. In that case yeah I do get where you're coming from. I think our training is very different to what those guys have. Very different world...

Remember that most police in the US are no longer required to have a Criminal Justice degree, or anything like that. Many also have a high school diploma and no real ability to do other jobs. Something like 40% admit to domestic violence, because 'the job is hard'. These are, generally, not good people.

That's not to say the system isn't putting them into a bad place. Lessening salaries, lowering requirements and training, while the late stage capitalism squeezes the civilians into choosing to steal bread to survive or die on the street, and then they see their police departments buying military level hardware for no fucking reason.

Bootlickers like to talk about 'bad apples', but the fucking saying is 'one bad apple spoils the whole barrel'. The whole banding together of police, the 'circling of the wagons' around police who are seen to do bad things shows the spinelessness that the police have. Meanwhile you have stories of former officers who tried to turn their fellow officers in for doing illegal things, and the people doing the reporting are the ones drummed out.

Meanwhile, the FBI has been warning about White Nationalists (who very much don't like the Pride movement) infiltrating local and national police organizations for years, and no one with power (political I mean) has done a fucking thing about it - https://www.pbs.org/...law-enforcement

[Kanese S's]

Obdigore, on 30 January 2020 - 08:33 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 30 January 2020 - 08:22 PM, said:

For some reason I thought you were British. In that case yeah I do get where you're coming from. I think our training is very different to what those guys have. Very different world...

Remember that most police in the US are no longer required to have a Criminal Justice degree, or anything like that. Many also have a high school diploma and no real ability to do other jobs. Something like 40% admit to domestic violence, because 'the job is hard'. These are, generally, not good people.

That's not to say the system isn't putting them into a bad place. Lessening salaries, lowering requirements and training, while the late stage capitalism squeezes the civilians into choosing to steal bread to survive or die on the street, and then they see their police departments buying military level hardware for no fucking reason.

Bootlickers like to talk about 'bad apples', but the fucking saying is 'one bad apple spoils the whole barrel'. The whole banding together of police, the 'circling of the wagons' around police who are seen to do bad things shows the spinelessness that the police have. Meanwhile you have stories of former officers who tried to turn their fellow officers in for doing illegal things, and the people doing the reporting are the ones drummed out.

Meanwhile, the FBI has been warning about White Nationalists (who very much don't like the Pride movement) infiltrating local and national police organizations for years, and no one with power (political I mean) has done a fucking thing about it - https://www.pbs.org/...law-enforcement

Exactly. Thank you for putting it better than I could.

I am generally highly suspicious of any law enforcer I encounter, especially given that 2/5 are domestic abusers, and the chances that they're an alt-right fascist/white supremacist are also high.

Essentially I see them as members of a legalized gang.
The one cop I knew who had the temperament and personality that I would actually want in a police officer was fired for being too nice and bringing up his concerns about ethics.

[Tiste Simeon]

To me that sounds like British policing 2-3 decades back. Not saying it's perfect now by any stretch of course...

[QuickTidal]

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 January 2020 - 07:57 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 07:33 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 29 January 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

Many of the older folks in the LGBT community remember being harassed and abused by the cops. It's really not that long ago. It's disrespectful both to them and the victims who are dead now to have conspicuous police presence at Pride events.

I understand that any large event in an urban area is realistically going to have some cops there, but they should be as inconspicuous as possible in light of their historical role as the oppressors of the community... oppression that is the very spark of the Pride movement in the first place.

Devils Advocate/has family/friends in law enforcement: Pride events in this day and age are not just a street parade and a few scattered events, it's a damned near city-dominating week-long party, with tonnes of people from local and abroad. In Toronto it spills out over out most major street and beyond for a long long period of time. Between 1 and 2 million people attended the most recent Pride events in Toronto. That's a massive logistical nightmare of an event...you literally CANNOT have them be "be as inconspicuous as possible"...they are either immersed in such an event throughout...or they aren't a functioning body that protects the safety and security of that event. End of. This can't be both ways, and that's on (and not a bad way) the success of Pride becoming what it is now, compared to its origins.

I understand the contention, and history (there is a great CBC Uncover podcast about it)...but there is no way for the police to do their jobs and be inconspicuous at Pride in any major city.

I'm talking about shit like being in the actual parade. I understand that as a major event there is going to be some police presence (regrettably). Police shouldn't be pretending that they weren't the arm of oppression against the LGBT community.
I also don't give a shit if people have family/friends in law enforcement.

Firstly, the anger is a tad offside. We are just discussing here, or so I thought. No need for the “I don’t give a shit”.

Second I added that my family/friends in law enforcement to illustrate that this thinking comes from their POV as they’ve explained it to me, which felt like a pertinent POV to add.

And I’m talking about CDN Police myself as that’s my experience in the country I live in, and on a thread called pride at police events felt like a broad international topic and not US centric one...as this seems to be an issue in a lot of countries to varying degrees. If your US experience is different, so be it.

Lastly, what about LGBT police? Have you included them? We have a fair number in my city and a big component of this is their inclusion or not. They want to march, but have had to sit out the last few prides because they’ve been deemed unwelcome.

As Tiste said, how is there any growth between LGBT and police, healing of this wound...if this event is meant to be so non-inclusive of one side? No one will ever get anywhere and relations will remain frosty.

[Kanese S's]

QuickTidal, on 30 January 2020 - 11:43 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 08:05 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 30 January 2020 - 07:57 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 30 January 2020 - 07:33 PM, said:

Tiste Simeon, on 29 January 2020 - 10:40 PM, said:

Of course. And that answer was more in line with this thread. I agree. If you'd read my post near the beginning of this thread I put a bit of an answer to it. Times are changing, albeit slowly but in Britain they're certainly much better than they used to be.

Many of the older folks in the LGBT community remember being harassed and abused by the cops. It's really not that long ago. It's disrespectful both to them and the victims who are dead now to have conspicuous police presence at Pride events.

I understand that any large event in an urban area is realistically going to have some cops there, but they should be as inconspicuous as possible in light of their historical role as the oppressors of the community... oppression that is the very spark of the Pride movement in the first place.

Devils Advocate/has family/friends in law enforcement: Pride events in this day and age are not just a street parade and a few scattered events, it's a damned near city-dominating week-long party, with tonnes of people from local and abroad. In Toronto it spills out over out most major street and beyond for a long long period of time. Between 1 and 2 million people attended the most recent Pride events in Toronto. That's a massive logistical nightmare of an event...you literally CANNOT have them be "be as inconspicuous as possible"...they are either immersed in such an event throughout...or they aren't a functioning body that protects the safety and security of that event. End of. This can't be both ways, and that's on (and not a bad way) the success of Pride becoming what it is now, compared to its origins.

I understand the contention, and history (there is a great CBC Uncover podcast about it)...but there is no way for the police to do their jobs and be inconspicuous at Pride in any major city.

I'm talking about shit like being in the actual parade. I understand that as a major event there is going to be some police presence (regrettably). Police shouldn't be pretending that they weren't the arm of oppression against the LGBT community.
I also don't give a shit if people have family/friends in law enforcement.

Firstly, the anger is a tad offside. We are just discussing here, or so I thought. No need for the "I don't give a shit".

Second I added that my family/friends in law enforcement to illustrate that this thinking comes from their POV as they've explained it to me, which felt like a pertinent POV to add.

And I'm talking about CDN Police myself as that's my experience in the country I live in, and on a thread called pride at police events felt like a broad international topic and not US centric one...as this seems to be an issue in a lot of countries to varying degrees. If your US experience is different, so be it.

Lastly, what about LGBT police? Have you included them? We have a fair number in my city and a big component of this is their inclusion or not. They want to march, but have had to sit out the last few prides because they've been deemed unwelcome.

As Tiste said, how is there any growth between LGBT and police, healing of this wound...if this event is meant to be so non-inclusive of one side? No one will ever get anywhere and relations will remain frosty.

I have anger towards the police, true. But me swearing doesn't necessarily mean that I'm specifically angry at that moment. It's more a mark of the casual nature that I think of the conversation in.


I'm aware that this is an international topic. However, I am talking about how things are on the ground where I am, and it seems clear that there isn't going to be a stance that works equally well in every area this is an issue, as the history is quite a bit different depending on country/region. I don't pretend to know the history or situation in the UK or Canada or most other countries. So I'm sorry if I was unclear about that before; I think the police participation in Pride events near me should be the very minimum possible.


As far as LGBT police.... most of the people I know are anti-police in general. So even joining them is viewed with suspicion. Like a woman being a gamergater or some other kind of MRA.

[QuickTidal]

Kanese S, on 31 January 2020 - 05:00 PM, said:

As far as LGBT police.... most of the people I know are anti-police in general. So even joining them is viewed with suspicion. Like a woman being a gamergater or some other kind of MRA.

So basically you don't believe that LGBT people can/should be cops and therefore, their want of a presence in Pride belongs in the dustbin with them joining up?

Gotcha.

It's a crappy stance, but I will support your right to have that crappy stance.

[Kanese S's]

QuickTidal, on 31 January 2020 - 06:26 PM, said:

Kanese S, on 31 January 2020 - 05:00 PM, said:

As far as LGBT police.... most of the people I know are anti-police in general. So even joining them is viewed with suspicion. Like a woman being a gamergater or some other kind of MRA.

So basically you don't believe that LGBT people can/should be cops and therefore, their want of a presence in Pride belongs in the dustbin with them joining up?

Gotcha.

It's a crappy stance, but I will support your right to have that crappy stance.

I'm against police as they exist in the USA as an institution. So yeah, I would be wary of anyone who would want to be a part of it. I've heard the argument that more people from diverse backgrounds and historically marginalized groups joining the police could counteract the reactionaries and improve policing in the USA, but I'm not sure I think this is believable; I think it's much more likely that the current police institution cannot be salvaged.


Obviously LGBT people can join police forces, and that's their decision. But I think that the LGBT has legitimate reasons to dislike the idea of cops in uniform marching in Pride.

[QuickTidal]

It's pretty crappy to basically claim that LGBT people who seek out law enforcement as a career are doing so for non-altruistic reasons of wanting to help you know...enforce the law. And lumping them into the category of "You're police, and thus not to be trusted." when perhaps they felt like changing it from the inside out is important to any change that will happen. Ever watch Brooklyn 99? They dive right into this stuff often. It's worth a look even for a comedy fiction show.

Quote

I'm against police as they exist in the USA as an institution

So who do you call when you need law enforcement help? Curious.