[Blend]

So there's an article going around Facebook today that kind of has my back up:

Read here!

I'll start this out by declaring that I am a very gay man who has no particular love or dislike for the police. I have never had a negative altercation with them, nor have I ever really had to deal with the police directly for anything having to do with my own well-being or life. For that reason, I try not to get involved in the whole police at pride debate very often. That being said...

I don't really know that I can disagree with the police chief in the above article. We can't tell police they're not allowed at Pride, and also be angry that they're not at pride.

From what I read in that article, they were trying to respect organizers' wishes that police not have a visible presence at their parade. That resulted in them not being able to immediately respond to the violence because they, frankly, were not as near to the incident as they would have been were they welcome there.

I understand the desire not to have police in the parade, but if we're going to ask them to not participate, it's a bit disingenuous of us to also expect them to be there against our wishes.

Here's an actual quote from Pride Hamilton's acting president Terri Wallis:

“We want that to be a very friendly, very open, very safe and secure environment. And we feel that if the police were present, that wouldn’t happen.”

That, paired with not allowing the police to have a recruitment booth at the pride events, says to me NO POLICE ALLOWED AT ALL.

I just think it's ridiculous and hypocritical to say NO POLICE BECAUSE THEY MAKE US FEEL UNSAFE, then get angry that the police that were asked not to be present were not doing enough to make us feel safe. You can't have it both ways.

I just think that if we're going to be angry at police, it should be because they're actually working against us. I just don't see it being the case here, at least not from what I have read in this and other articles about the unfortunate events at Pride Hamilton.

Wallis also said this:

“If members of the Hamilton Police force want to show up at Pride, they’re more than welcome, but they cannot show up in uniform,” said Wallis, adding that they may call on police to do their job if protesters become disruptive or threatening.

So it wasn't an outright ban on police presence. That being said, it's kind of ridiculous to expect a police person who is not in their uniform, therefore not equipped with any of their regular safety equipment, to deal with a mob of violent protesters.

It's okay for us to ask these people to risk their lives for us, but not okay for them to actually wear the things designed to protect themselves in case of dangerous situations because it makes us feel unsafe?

Like I said, I understand the police ban, there's good reason for it. But I think having outrageous expectations like these (and there are certainly ridiculous expectations on both sides) are what make this whole thing so controversial.

And to top it all off, here's another article about the town hall meeting following the incident at Hamilton Pride:

Read here!

The thing about all this is that we don't really know how long it took for them to respond. The police chief has said that they responded "very quickly" and the community has said that they didn't. So, it seems pretty we said/they said to me.

The police chief has also mentioned that additional officers were asked to come in on their day off to provide additional security to the event and also to be debriefed about the event, so they didn't just completely ignore the gays like some would have us believe, they actually increased their presence while still trying to respect the community's wishes to have them not be visible. It was also stated that one of the reasons for the delayed response is that some police had been pulled away to deal with another protest incident at City Hall. So what, they should have ignored this other protest so that they could protect us? What makes us more special than anyone else?

Following the Pride incident, the police were present to listen to the complaints at the town hall event, despite being told to fuck off. From all I've seen in this situation, the police are trying, and people like Cedar Hopperton have no interest in reconciliation, they just want to cause trouble and continue widening the rift between the community and the police force.

Continuing to play the blame game doesn't get anyone anywhere, and from where I'm standing, from the various articles I've read about it (and I've read many as I find this specific situation particularly interesting), the police in Hamilton are TRYING, despite the fact that they're being blamed for things, as far as I can see, we have no right to be blaming them for. They were doing their jobs AND trying to respect our community, and we're still not happy with them. The road to reconciliation between the gay community and the police force has to start somewhere, and telling police to go fuck themselves in a public forum, or blaming them for something that they couldn't help because they were trying to respect your wishes in the first place, isn't where that starts.

[Aptorian]

Is there historically an issue of these two groups clashing? Recently?

[Illuyankas]

Part of their response can be understandable, as the police do target LGBTQ individuals at a disproportionately higher rate. Also major incidents like, you know, Detroit police protecting an actual Nazi protest march - a march of actual swastika flying, gun carrying, racial abusing Nazi shits - at Detroit Pride, while the sheriff was comparing the Nazis to the counterprotestors with the phrase 'both sides were wrong' and police ignoring video evidence of a Nazi assaulting a woman. (e: both ignoring the footage afterwards and actually ignoring it happening in the footage itself)

The onus to repair the divide is entirely on the police, who are more interested in forming links with and providing preferable treatment to right wing and Nazi organisations and groups. They already know what they need to do differently, they don't care to so they won't.

This post has been edited by Illuyankas: 20 June 2019 - 08:27 PM

[Blend]

Aptorian, on 20 June 2019 - 08:16 PM, said:

Is there historically an issue of these two groups clashing? Recently?

Pride vs. Police has been a thing for about 2 or 3 years now, it sorta came on the tail of the Black Lives Matter stuff.

In most Pride events (in Ontario at least), police are asked not to attend in uniform as the community feels unsafe around police.

There is a long history of police brutality and prejudice against the gay community, things like police raids on bathhouses as recently as the 90s, police absolutely ignoring community outcry that gay people were being murdered, then blaming the community for not coming forward about the deaths sooner after they caught the guy, etc... and that is stated as the reasoning for the ban, and I get it, but there's got to be a point where we can accept that the police are trying - even a small step in the right direction is better than nothing.

[Blend]

Illuyankas, on 20 June 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

Part of their response can be understandable, as the police do target LGBTQ individuals at a disproportionately higher rate. Also major incidents like, you know, Detroit police protecting an actual Nazi protest march - a march of actual swastika flying, gun carrying, racial abusing Nazi shits - at Detroit Pride, while the sheriff was comparing the Nazis to the counterprotestors with the phrase 'both sides were wrong' and police ignoring video evidence of a Nazi assaulting a woman. (e: both ignoring the footage afterwards and actually ignoring it happening in the footage itself)

The onus to repair the divide is entirely on the police, who are more interested in forming links with and providing preferable treatment to right wing and Nazi organisations and groups. They already know what they need to do differently, they don't care to so they won't.

You're right, there are certainly situations where the police are NOT trying - the above example being an excellent one. Another such incident is when the Chief of Police in Toronto, having caught a serial killer who was targeting gay men, blamed the gay community for not coming forward sooner, despite the fact that there was proof that this had been going on for years and that the gay community had been trying to get police involved for just as long.

But I feel like in this instance, at Hamilton Pride this year, they ARE trying and the community still criticises them, tells them to fuck off in public fora, etc. The onus is on the police, yes, but they can't do much if the gay community refuses to accept that they're trying when they are actually trying.

[worry]

Pride vs. Police is surely older than that, as it's an inherent element of Pride, right? Stonewall and all. Pride is foremost a protest against oppression. Even its celebratory elements -- also vital -- have to be viewed through that lens, and with a recognition of what's still left to accomplish, and those who haven't benefited so much from the strides so far.

I do see what you're saying about being open to good faith efforts -- but are efforts of the "more gay cops" variety not beside the point? Like in the "more women drone bombers!" sense. I suppose I'm in the welcome if not in uniform camp, and distinctly unwelcome in uniform -- and recruitment booths can gtfo. But I'm American, where that Detroit thing isn't abnormal. Maybe it's different up there. I just wouldn't be shocked at all if Hamilton police slow-rolled a response out of petulance or whatever. In fact, according to at least some present, that seems to be explicitly what happened: link

[HoosierDaddy]

Illuyankas, on 20 June 2019 - 08:25 PM, said:

Part of their response can be understandable, as the police do target LGBTQ individuals at a disproportionately higher rate. Also major incidents like, you know, Detroit police protecting an actual Nazi protest march - a march of actual swastika flying, gun carrying, racial abusing Nazi shits - at Detroit Pride, while the sheriff was comparing the Nazis to the counterprotestors with the phrase 'both sides were wrong' and police ignoring video evidence of a Nazi assaulting a woman. (e: both ignoring the footage afterwards and actually ignoring it happening in the footage itself)

The onus to repair the divide is entirely on the police, who are more interested in forming links with and providing preferable treatment to right wing and Nazi organisations and groups. They already know what they need to do differently, they don't care to so they won't.

As long as they had a permit to march as well the dumbfuck assholes had a right to march as well. That's freedom of speech as those were on public roads. In fact, KKK rallies often receive far more protection than others because the government and police know that what they want is to cause a disturbance.

Just to clarify that situation in general. Other numbnuts might just be racist/bigoted elected officials.

[Blend]

worry, on 20 June 2019 - 09:20 PM, said:

Pride vs. Police is surely older than that, as it's an inherent element of Pride, right? Stonewall and all. Pride is foremost a protest against oppression. Even its celebratory elements -- also vital -- have to be viewed through that lens, and with a recognition of what's still left to accomplish, and those who haven't benefited so much from the strides so far.

I do see what you're saying about being open to good faith efforts -- but are efforts of the "more gay cops" variety not beside the point? Like in the "more women drone bombers!" sense. I suppose I'm in the welcome if not in uniform camp, and distinctly unwelcome in uniform -- and recruitment booths can gtfo. But I'm American, where that Detroit thing isn't abnormal. Maybe it's different up there. I just wouldn't be shocked at all if Hamilton police slow-rolled a response out of petulance or whatever. In fact, according to at least some present, that seems to be explicitly what happened: link

You're right, Pride vs Police is certainly ingrained in the whole concept of Pride, but I was talking more about this "banning police at pride" thing - it started last year or the year before that and was tied to the Black Lives Matter campaign, at least here in Ontario.

There are certainly incidents similar to the Detroit thing in and around Canada. The "Yellow Vests," who are basically our version of neo-nazi fascist assholes, were actually part of this altercation I believe. But I mean, they didn't march on the celebration with police protection. Organizers just felt that the police response wasn't fast enough.

I try to take tweets about single incidents with no proof, no information, nothing with a grain of salt. Plus, one police officer's response doesn't mean that all police would respond the same way. There is still work to do to get to where police SHOULD be, but I don't think it's fair to say that Hamilton police are not TRYING, particularly considering those same police have said the exact same thing, over and over again - "We know there is still work to do, but we are trying to do better."

[worry]

Fair enough. I suppose that Tweet (which was meant as example, not the only one I've seen expressing that view) demonstrates to me that police on the ground vs leaders at the top of the organization might not be in accord, is all.

That said, even the article you posted -- with quotes from the Chief himself -- reads defensive and not a little pouty, rather than self-reflective. Was there an investigation of officer behavior on the ground? Or is he just making a blanket defense? If the latter -- and that's what it reads like to me -- then how is that good faith effort? Sounds more like PR.

[Tiste Simeon]

Sheesh in this country we have tons of openly gay police and there is usually a police section of the major pride parades complete with rainbow police car and everything. I've not taken part in one because I'm not gay and I don't feel like it would be right for me to but I've been told it wouldn't be an issue if I wanted to. The officers who match are generally in uniform but are doing so on their days off etc.

The other police in attendance are there because we're there at any large scale public event in order to keep the peace. The same as if it was a protest or football match etc.

We get criticism when videos surface of uniformed officers dancing as part of a parade "you should be out catching criminals" or "what has the service come to" or "I thought the police weren't meant to be political isn't this making a political statement.?" but generally I think a lot has been done to repair old wounds. Just like after Steven Lawrence a lot has been done to bridge gaps with BAME communities.

Am I saying we're there yet? Not at all. There will always be officers who get through the ranks who have personal hatreds and prejudices but I think we're a long way from where we were. A majority of people from what I can tell are happy that the police are trying to be more inclusive and they they're involved in things like pride.

Sorry if I have rambled but I wanted to throw in a bit from where I'm coming from.

[Cause]

Interested to hear Tiste's take or anyone else who would know...

My take on it is that the police should have ignored Prides request to not be there, though I understand they did still deploy and remain at the perimeter. Still they should have deployed as they normally would have for any such event, regardless of that events wishes. Any large public gathering like pride requires a permit and public order policing. The police are there to protect you (from yourself if needs be) and also to protect everyone else from the protesters (I realize that pride is not protesters in the typical sense of many marchers), the counter protesters etc.

The police were placed in a no win situation s the police chief says, so they should have gone with the no win scenario that best kept the law and public order, deploying as they deemed best fit.

My understanding with te no police at pride things is as Blend pointed out a solidarity with black lives matter. Its one of the negative sides of intersectionality in that if someone is oppressed somewhere we are all oppressed. It seems to be turning a lot of people against the police and so forth.

Speaking of black lives matter, someone on this forum once said something that still resonates with me deeply. 'Its not the job of the police to stay alive no matter the cost, its their job to uphold the law'. This was said in the thread where we discussed police shooting black people who ended up being unarmed etc. I tend to give the police the benefit of the doubt whent hey shoot someone who turns out to be innocent (their hobs are hard) but I also believe that they should be held to a higher standard than civilians if they are found to have acted improperly. They are trained after all and are given and accept a great responsibility. The reason I bring this up is because again, if the police believed they couldn't properly protect pride by deploying only at the perimeter they should have ingored prides request. I'm not a fascist but I still believe the police tell you where they will go not the other way around.

[Morgoth]

Here the police, the army and every other parts of society have their own presence in the pride parade. In uniform and everything.

[D'rek]

Morgoth, on 24 June 2019 - 12:03 PM, said:

Here the police, the army and every other parts of society have their own presence in the pride parade. In uniform and everything.

That was the case in virtually every Canadian pride parade, too, until only a couple years ago.

[QuickTidal]

I think the Bruce Macarthur (Possibly Canada's most prolific serial killer to date) case really exposed the fact that the TPS's skeletons about how they treated the LGBT community in the past and still in some cases today aren't as buried as they thought. Back in the 70's, prior to the bathhouse raids, and the death of that young man on Yonge Street (an event which caused 1980's Toronto straight community to spuriously reject the LGBT one as a path to crime, drugs, and violence, and death) there had been deaths (violent ones; obviously by a serial killer) of LGBT individuals that weren't properly investigated (these MAY be tied to Macarthur as well, the case is not complete on his crimes yet) and the police "line" to the people who sought justice for their murdered friends ("The gay community isn't helping us enough and coming forward with enough info for us to catch anyone"; as if it's on the public to solve crimes and do police's job) is EERILY exacting to what the people who sought to see justice for the more recent murdered friends (Macarthur's victims) heard from the Police force in the last decade of their search.

The Pride Parade and events seemed in the 2000's that the huge former rift (from the strife of the 70's and 80's) had healed and police and LGBT community had sewn itself back up...but once people started dying in the Village in the 2010's, it was evident that it had not, especially with regards to minority and POC LGBT individuals, in the case of Macarthur's victims who were largely marginalized immigrants.

So I can see the reasoning behind Pride no longer trusting in the healed rift, and feeling that the police in Toronto (not en masse, but in certain groups) no longer had their communities best interest at heart while an old man serial killer ran amuck for more than a decade killing innocents. The police even HAD Macarthur in custody years ago for a domestic violence charge and let him walk.

Add to this the Tess Richey case (not LGBT, but she was killed in the Village area), in whic the police claimed to have no leads two weeks after her disappearance, and her mother got fed up of waiting and came to look for her in the city, and found her body STEPS from where she was last goddamn seen.

Our police force has been on the back foot now for almost the entire 2010's simply because they have zero accountability. The blue is a brotherhood, and protects its own even when it's steeply in the wrong. When Police Chief Saunders offer platitudes, it's hard for people to buy it. Even those of us not in the LGBT community.

And when it comes down to it, it's hard to countenance the hard feelings when the parade totally allows anyone to participate, but the "protest" of the treatment they have received recently is just that they ask the police don't march in uniform. I don't find that as much of a hurdle as people claim. And you have to remember, as much of a party as it is...Pride was and is a Protest Event.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 24 June 2019 - 01:31 PM

[Blend]

As a follow-up to all this, it seems that Cedar Hopperton, the trans person who spoke up at a Town Hall meeting following these events and told police that "they can fuck off" has been arrested for allegedly violating their parole conditions.

Of course, everyone is jumping on this as a clear indication that the police are targeting the gays... However, the only place that I've been able to find any mention that the arrest might have been for anything besides the parole violation, is a very clearly left-wing news site that very clearly is embellishing the story to fit their narrative. Every reputable news source I've found mention only the parole violation, though they do report on the rest of the bits of story that involve Hopperton (that they were charged as the ringleader of a vandalism spree related to their anarchist goals, that they told police to fuck off at that meeting, etc.)

I dunno, it really bugs me when people assign meaning to something that they probably shouldn't, at least not until we have the full story.

To my knowledge, there have been no arrests actually related to the Hamilton Pride incident, yet, besides this one, which I'd argue is only associated to it because the activity that instigated the arrest was related to the Pride incident.

Frankly, Cedar Hopperton, after everything I have read about them, is about the last person I would want representing me in any forum. I don't believe in anarchy, and if we lived in a truly anarchist world, people like Cedar Hopperton wouldn't even have a fucking platform to stand on or anyone to listen. They are preaching for something that would ultimately more likely see them dead than free, which I think is ridiculous.

[Blend]

QuickTidal, on 24 June 2019 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think the Bruce Macarthur (Possibly Canada's most prolific serial killer to date) case really exposed the fact that the TPS's skeletons about how they treated the LGBT community in the past and still in some cases today aren't as buried as they thought. Back in the 70's, prior to the bathhouse raids, and the death of that young man on Yonge Street (an event which caused 1980's Toronto straight community to spuriously reject the LGBT one as a path to crime, drugs, and violence, and death) there had been deaths (violent ones; obviously by a serial killer) of LGBT individuals that weren't properly investigated (these MAY be tied to Macarthur as well, the case is not complete on his crimes yet) and the police "line" to the people who sought justice for their murdered friends ("The gay community isn't helping us enough and coming forward with enough info for us to catch anyone"; as if it's on the public to solve crimes and do police's job) is EERILY exacting to what the people who sought to see justice for the more recent murdered friends (Macarthur's victims) heard from the Police force in the last decade of their search.

The Pride Parade and events seemed in the 2000's that the huge former rift (from the strife of the 70's and 80's) had healed and police and LGBT community had sewn itself back up...but once people started dying in the Village in the 2010's, it was evident that it had not, especially with regards to minority and POC LGBT individuals, in the case of Macarthur's victims who were largely marginalized immigrants.

So I can see the reasoning behind Pride no longer trusting in the healed rift, and feeling that the police in Toronto (not en masse, but in certain groups) no longer had their communities best interest at heart while an old man serial killer ran amuck for more than a decade killing innocents. The police even HAD Macarthur in custody years ago for a domestic violence charge and let him walk.

Add to this the Tess Richey case (not LGBT, but she was killed in the Village area), in whic the police claimed to have no leads two weeks after her disappearance, and her mother got fed up of waiting and came to look for her in the city, and found her body STEPS from where she was last goddamn seen.

Our police force has been on the back foot now for almost the entire 2010's simply because they have zero accountability. The blue is a brotherhood, and protects its own even when it's steeply in the wrong. When Police Chief Saunders offer platitudes, it's hard for people to buy it. Even those of us not in the LGBT community.

And when it comes down to it, it's hard to countenance the hard feelings when the parade totally allows anyone to participate, but the "protest" of the treatment they have received recently is just that they ask the police don't march in uniform. I don't find that as much of a hurdle as people claim. And you have to remember, as much of a party as it is...Pride was and is a Protest Event.

Is Hamilton Police part of TPS, or are they a separate entity? Just curious!

I know there is a very long history of the TPS abusing their power, and not just in the gay community (though it's definitely prominent there). I've heard countless stories of them refusing to help someone in need just because they are trans or visibly queer in some way - in the news and in person. I'd probably be a little less neutral in the discussion if it was TPS involved, but it's Hamilton Police, and from everything I have been able to find, they have been trying to bridge the gap between the community and themselves since a gay restaurant owner was nearly killed in 2004, and dipwads like Cedar Hopperton are just doing whatever they can to further widen that gap because of their ridiculous "anarchist" ideals.

[QuickTidal]

Blend, on 24 June 2019 - 05:29 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 24 June 2019 - 01:30 PM, said:

I think the Bruce Macarthur (Possibly Canada's most prolific serial killer to date) case really exposed the fact that the TPS's skeletons about how they treated the LGBT community in the past and still in some cases today aren't as buried as they thought. Back in the 70's, prior to the bathhouse raids, and the death of that young man on Yonge Street (an event which caused 1980's Toronto straight community to spuriously reject the LGBT one as a path to crime, drugs, and violence, and death) there had been deaths (violent ones; obviously by a serial killer) of LGBT individuals that weren't properly investigated (these MAY be tied to Macarthur as well, the case is not complete on his crimes yet) and the police "line" to the people who sought justice for their murdered friends ("The gay community isn't helping us enough and coming forward with enough info for us to catch anyone"; as if it's on the public to solve crimes and do police's job) is EERILY exacting to what the people who sought to see justice for the more recent murdered friends (Macarthur's victims) heard from the Police force in the last decade of their search.

The Pride Parade and events seemed in the 2000's that the huge former rift (from the strife of the 70's and 80's) had healed and police and LGBT community had sewn itself back up...but once people started dying in the Village in the 2010's, it was evident that it had not, especially with regards to minority and POC LGBT individuals, in the case of Macarthur's victims who were largely marginalized immigrants.

So I can see the reasoning behind Pride no longer trusting in the healed rift, and feeling that the police in Toronto (not en masse, but in certain groups) no longer had their communities best interest at heart while an old man serial killer ran amuck for more than a decade killing innocents. The police even HAD Macarthur in custody years ago for a domestic violence charge and let him walk.

Add to this the Tess Richey case (not LGBT, but she was killed in the Village area), in whic the police claimed to have no leads two weeks after her disappearance, and her mother got fed up of waiting and came to look for her in the city, and found her body STEPS from where she was last goddamn seen.

Our police force has been on the back foot now for almost the entire 2010's simply because they have zero accountability. The blue is a brotherhood, and protects its own even when it's steeply in the wrong. When Police Chief Saunders offer platitudes, it's hard for people to buy it. Even those of us not in the LGBT community.

And when it comes down to it, it's hard to countenance the hard feelings when the parade totally allows anyone to participate, but the "protest" of the treatment they have received recently is just that they ask the police don't march in uniform. I don't find that as much of a hurdle as people claim. And you have to remember, as much of a party as it is...Pride was and is a Protest Event.

Is Hamilton Police part of TPS, or are they a separate entity? Just curious!

I know there is a very long history of the TPS abusing their power, and not just in the gay community (though it's definitely prominent there). I've heard countless stories of them refusing to help someone in need just because they are trans or visibly queer in some way - in the news and in person. I'd probably be a little less neutral in the discussion if it was TPS involved, but it's Hamilton Police, and from everything I have been able to find, they have been trying to bridge the gap between the community and themselves since a gay restaurant owner was nearly killed in 2004, and dipwads like Cedar Hopperton are just doing whatever they can to further widen that gap because of their ridiculous "anarchist" ideals.

The thread is "Police At Pride Events"...thus the main protest/conflict for this IS and originated between the TPS and the Gay Community in Toronto. That this conflict has since spread to other communities and is causing its own issue, is beside the point. The ever-present police mentality with regards to LGBT community is well documented. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the HamPo is somehow immune to the ties that bind the Ontario Blue together, prejudices and all that being intact. The splash back from the MacArthur events is wide-reaching, simply because Pride everywhere is usually about Police VS Gay Community. They can't help but feel the sting of the same thing in the Hamilton community.

ALL police forces in Ontario answer to our Solicitor General (currently Sylvia Jones) as their highest tier. They also all (as far as I'm aware) train in the same place (Aylmer, Ontario). So it's not as separated from a social strata POV as you might think. Full disclosure: I have family members on the Peel Police Services.

[Blend]

QuickTidal, on 24 June 2019 - 06:13 PM, said:

The thread is "Police At Pride Events"...thus the main protest/conflict for this IS and originated between the TPS and the Gay Community in Toronto. That this conflict has since spread to other communities and is causing its own issue, is beside the point. The ever-present police mentality with regards to LGBT community is well documented. I highly, HIGHLY doubt that the HamPo is somehow immune to the ties that bind the Ontario Blue together, prejudices and all that being intact. The splash back from the MacArthur events is wide-reaching, simply because Pride everywhere is usually about Police VS Gay Community. They can't help but feel the sting of the same thing in the Hamilton community.

ALL police forces in Ontario answer to our Solicitor General (currently Sylvia Jones) as their highest tier. They also all (as far as I'm aware) train in the same place (Aylmer, Ontario). So it's not as separated from a social strata POV as you might think. Full disclosure: I have family members on the Peel Police Services.

I mean, you're right that the thread title was made deliberately vague, but my OP was very clearly about the incident at Hamilton Pride.

It's certainly important to look at such events in the larger context, and in this case TPS are a very important part of that context, nor would I deny that police is police, but even though they all do rookie training in the same place, and are ultimately accountable to the Solicitor General, I can only assume that each police service's head of management (commissioner?) has at least a modicum of discretion when it comes to policies within their own organizations particularly given the individual societal contexts each service might be beholden to. This is an issue that needs to be and should be dealt with across the board, but just because one police service decides to do something, does not mean that every other police service is required to do it.

All that aside, I don't disagree with most of what you said, but I don't know that we can and/or should put all the blame on TPS for HPS's problems or vice-versa. Presumably the commissioner of TPS has different priorities than the commissioner of HPS.

[Kanese S's]

Pride vs. police has been a thing since the very beginning.
Pride commemorates a riot literally against the police.
Fuck the pigs.

[Tiste Simeon]

Kanese S, on 28 January 2020 - 06:12 PM, said:

Pride vs. police has been a thing since the very beginning.
Pride commemorates a riot literally against the police.
Fuck the pigs.

Huh. Useful contribution...