[Karsa Orlong]

Maark Abbott, on 03 May 2019 - 07:14 AM, said:

Because Stormshite is what happens when you want to ape the scope of Malazan but just don't have the chops to back it up. Random stuff chucked in a blender does not good worldbuilding make.

Oh wow, that's harsh ^^ Is it that bad? I have the first book around here somewhere, but never got into it really...the prologue was OK but I was not convinced by the world it painted...too weird on a first glance. But i always planed to return some day.

Btw, as it seems more people read this thread...let me give you a counter rec for people looking for worthy fantasy series: I really dig Michelle West's stuff in her Sun Sword world. Very richly imagined world and she really has a grasp when it comes to characterization. Very good. The only one that had a comparable emotional impact on me as a reader was Guy Gavriel Kay (but she writes pretty differently, so don't take that as a "If you love Kay, you will definitely love West" kind of endorsement!).

[Abyss]

Karsa Orlong, on 03 May 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 03 May 2019 - 07:14 AM, said:

Because Stormshite is what happens when you want to ape the scope of Malazan but just don't have the chops to back it up. Random stuff chucked in a blender does not good worldbuilding make.

Oh wow, that's harsh ^^ Is it that bad? I have the first book around here somewhere, but never got into it really...the prologue was OK but I was not convinced by the world it painted...too weird on a first glance. But i always planed to return some day.

Btw, as it seems more people read this thread...let me give you a counter rec for people looking for worthy fantasy series: I really dig Michelle West's stuff in her Sun Sword world. Very richly imagined world and she really has a grasp when it comes to characterization. Very good. The only one that had a comparable emotional impact on me as a reader was Guy Gavriel Kay (but she writes pretty differently, so don't take that as a "If you love Kay, you will definitely love West" kind of endorsement!).

Re STORMLIGHT, Maark was bitten by Brandon Sanderson as a child and ever since then he has an irrational hatred of him. If you have read his MISTBORN books and enjoyed those, you'll likely enjoy this. If you have not, they're a solid intro, reasonably short, fast reads, to determine if you want to take on the Big series. He's also written STORMBREAKER and ELANTRIS... these were his much much earlier i his career books... i'll be honest... i enjoyed the hell out of MISTBORN and TSA, but if Storm' or Elantris had been my intro to Sanderson i may have stayed clear for years.


Re SUN SWORD... i've eyed that a few times but it always seemed kind of YA'ish. Good to see a reco.



Opinions here are a bit divided, but i really enjoyed Anthony Ryan's RAVEN's SHADOW trilo. Good fantasy, minimal magic, no 1stP povs.


Also, if you haven't already, Richard Morgan's TAKESHI KOVACS and LAND FIT FOR HEROES trilos are worth a look. Kovacs is dark sf/cyberpunk, but closer to science fantasy than fiction and very engaging. LAND is a nicely dark fantasy epic.

[End of Disc One]

Karsa Orlong, on 03 May 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

Maark Abbott, on 03 May 2019 - 07:14 AM, said:

Because Stormshite is what happens when you want to ape the scope of Malazan but just don't have the chops to back it up. Random stuff chucked in a blender does not good worldbuilding make.

Oh wow, that's harsh ^^ Is it that bad? I have the first book around here somewhere, but never got into it really...the prologue was OK but I was not convinced by the world it painted...too weird on a first glance. But i always planed to return some day.

Do not engage...

[Tiste Simeon]

The Dresden Files!

[Mentalist]

Stormlight is VERY slow build with absolutely terrible characters full of cringe wrapped around an interesting magic history and some sort of epic plot. But the good parts read like a 90s Saturday morning cartoon.

To be fair, since then Sanderson really improved his character writing in the 2nd Gen Mistborn books (Wax&Wayne) and I haven't read Stormlight 3 yet (it's supposed to come out in mmpb this summer, I believe), but as of end of book 2, overall awesome: over-dragging: pure cringe ratio is probably somewhere around 20:55:25.

IMHO, of course. But as I stated before, long, epic books aren't Sanderson's strong suite as they give more time to his weaknesses to show than his shorter, tighter works that largely leave a good impression due to intricate world-building (magic systems) and decent to good plotting.

This post has been edited by Mentalist: 04 May 2019 - 12:18 AM

[Slow Ben]

I bet if we try we can have this discussion in every thread on the whole forum. We’re already 74% there!

[Andorion]

Mentalist, on 04 May 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:

Stormlight is VERY slow build with absolutely terrible characters full of cringe wrapped around an interesting magic history and some sort of epic plot. But the good parts read like a 90s Saturday morning cartoon.

To be fair, since then Sanderson really improved his character writing in the 2nd Gen Mistborn books (Wax&Wayne) and I haven't read Stormlight 3 yet (it's supposed to come out in mmpb this summer, I believe), but as of end of book 2, overall awesome: over-dragging: pure cringe ratio is probably somewhere around 20:55:25.

IMHO, of course. But as I stated before, long, epic books aren't Sanderson's strong suite as they give more time to his weaknesses to show than his shorter, tighter works that largely leave a good impression due to intricate world-building (magic systems) and decent to good plotting.

Sanderson does worldbuilding and magic systems well. That's about it really. The minute he has to populate that world with characters who talk, he stumbles.

I agree that the latest Wax and Wayne books are great, but, the latest SLA book was unnecessarily long and ponderous.

And his basic character formula is that each person has this deep personal tragedy in the past that they have to overcome. It gets hackneyed.

Another of my hangups with him is his morality. In the end, characters are too black and white, and they always conform to certain norms (no premarital sex) This can often make situations extremely awkward (Mistborn 2).

[Abyss]

Slow Ben, on 04 May 2019 - 12:47 AM, said:

I bet if we try we can have this discussion in every thread on the whole forum. We're already 74% there!

Tigana sucked.

[Mentalist]

Andorion, on 04 May 2019 - 01:26 AM, said:

Mentalist, on 04 May 2019 - 12:18 AM, said:

Stormlight is VERY slow build with absolutely terrible characters full of cringe wrapped around an interesting magic history and some sort of epic plot. But the good parts read like a 90s Saturday morning cartoon.

To be fair, since then Sanderson really improved his character writing in the 2nd Gen Mistborn books (Wax&Wayne) and I haven't read Stormlight 3 yet (it's supposed to come out in mmpb this summer, I believe), but as of end of book 2, overall awesome: over-dragging: pure cringe ratio is probably somewhere around 20:55:25.

IMHO, of course. But as I stated before, long, epic books aren't Sanderson's strong suite as they give more time to his weaknesses to show than his shorter, tighter works that largely leave a good impression due to intricate world-building (magic systems) and decent to good plotting.

Sanderson does worldbuilding and magic systems well. That's about it really. The minute he has to populate that world with characters who talk, he stumbles.

I agree that the latest Wax and Wayne books are great, but, the latest SLA book was unnecessarily long and ponderous.

And his basic character formula is that each person has this deep personal tragedy in the past that they have to overcome. It gets hackneyed.

Another of my hangups with him is his morality. In the end, characters are too black and white, and they always conform to certain norms (no premarital sex) This can often make situations extremely awkward (Mistborn 2).

That's part of the Saturday Morning Cartoon vibe I was referring to. The formula works with action heroes who are too busy saving the day to develop relationships and have character growth in any realistic fashion.

But when he tries to do a "proper" long-form epic fantasy.... he starts to wobble. .

[John II]

Ando, have you read non-cosmere Sanderson? Note that in the cosmere, characters actually have to have bad events in their past to be able to perform magic (in an extremely simplified way of putting it); their Spiritwebs need to be cracked. Books like Legion show that he doesn't have to have characters with an abusive history. He just does that because it's part of the cosmere magic system.
Regarding the 'black-and-white' criticism, I give you Elkohar, Adolin, Kelsier, Vin, Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Vasher, Breeze, Yeden, Hoid, and Rashek. These are just a few of the characters I can think of who are grey. And for fucks sake, how does premarital sex come into this equation? The only situations where premarital sex is a plot device is in Brent Weeks' Night Angel.

Stormlight is an excellent modern epic. The world building is magnificent; not random at all. The character interactions are great. Oathbringer was truly awesome, and don't let anyone tell you differently.

Finally, Sanderson's magic systems are wonderful; only Brent Weeks' Lightbringer and Brian McLellan's Powder Mage can compare. Erikson's Warrens are somewhat poor in comparison.

[Andorion]

John II, on 05 May 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:

Ando, have you read non-cosmere Sanderson? Note that in the cosmere, characters actually have to have bad events in their past to be able to perform magic (in an extremely simplified way of putting it); their Spiritwebs need to be cracked. Books like Legion show that he doesn't have to have characters with an abusive history. He just does that because it's part of the cosmere magic system.
Regarding the 'black-and-white' criticism, I give you Elkohar, Adolin, Kelsier, Vin, Kaladin, Dalinar, Shallan, Vasher, Breeze, Yeden, Hoid, and Rashek. These are just a few of the characters I can think of who are grey. And for fucks sake, how does premarital sex come into this equation? The only situations where premarital sex is a plot device is in Brent Weeks' Night Angel.

Stormlight is an excellent modern epic. The world building is magnificent; not random at all. The character interactions are great. Oathbringer was truly awesome, and don't let anyone tell you differently.

Finally, Sanderson's magic systems are wonderful; only Brent Weeks' Lightbringer and Brian McLellan's Powder Mage can compare. Erikson's Warrens are somewhat poor in comparison.

Non-Cosmere... The three WoT books he wrote. I think he did an excellent job there. Started a bit rocky, (didn't get Mat's character at all) but A Memory of Light is an utterly superb book and the best conclusion that series could have had.
I have also read his Rithmatist, and the sci-fi one that came out last year - Sky..something. Both have the same trope of past character tragedy, though I liked both of them.

I have not read Legion, I will get to it eventually.

I do not dislike Sanderson as an author. He is an excellent worldbuilder and magic-system builder. He has a very organized mind and method I wish he wrote some novels on empires as I think he could write the bureaucratic administrative fantasy I love. He is also very dedicated and his fan relations are exemplary.
There's grey, and there's grey. I don't fetishize grey characters, I am fascinated by the psychological struggles of Kaladin, Shallan and Dalinar. But, note that apart from Dalinar, the other two were always fundamentally good people. Trauma and character greyness are different things.

I actually rather like Adolin. I cheered like mad when he did what needed to be done at the ends of Radiance. I have gone on record on this board saying that Kelsier is an excellent character. Without him the rest of Mistborn was a harder less enjoyable read.

I mention pre-marital sex because, in the process of character arcs, sex is sometimes natural and called for. Vin and Elend in a tent in Mistborn 2 is a good example. Holding off from this feels artificial.

I will differ from you on the magic system issue. This I feel is a matter of personal taste. Its a scale really. On the one hand, super organized, quantifiable magic like Sanderson, on the other super vague magic like Tolkien. Erikson leans more towards Tolkien. I love the Malazan magic system. Its flexible and powerful and complicated and I don't have to memorise 12 metals and their interactions to understand it.

Where Sanderson falls down, even now is in writing quality. He can't write humour, his jokes are horrifically juvenile. Improved somewhat recently, but still. And the basic tone of his writing - it just doesn't chime with me like Erikson's heavier prose or Pratchett's with. There are far worse writers than Sanderson, but there are also better ones.

[Chance]

Simple answer is there isn't anything like the Malazan out there, probably because it doesn't really sell especially not as long series compared to lighter fair that appeal to a lot more people. Kay, Wolfe and possibly Daniel Abraham sometimes. If your into SF there is a bit more Lord of Light and some of Banks output comes to mind but ten book epics that dense while mostly still being entertaining and awesome I can't think of anything but Banks Culture that comes close.

John II, on 05 May 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:

Stormlight is an excellent modern epic. The world building is magnificent; not random at all. The character interactions are great. Oathbringer was truly awesome, and don't let anyone tell you differently.

Finally, Sanderson's magic systems are wonderful; only Brent Weeks' Lightbringer and Brian McLellan's Powder Mage can compare. Erikson's Warrens are somewhat poor in comparison.

This sound wonderfully objective

Another persons view on it could be that Sandersons magic is so mechanical that it is basically without wonder even while it can be spectacularly described sometimes, that he is basically writing an marvels avengers the fantasy edition in Stormlight and that his concept of morality is sometimes edging on the slightly too old testament for comfort. The last which I suspect are his personal values since they colour everything I've read by him.

This post has been edited by Chance: 05 May 2019 - 10:28 AM

[Karsa Orlong]

Oh, it seems i have hit a sore spot in this community?! ^^ Anyway, thanks for expanding on Sanderson for a bit. As i said, i have the first Stormlight novel here but never really got into it. I will probably try again sometime.

Also, as per my opening post, i am more of a fantasy guy than a sci fi guy. While i know that there is some pretty awesome epic stuff for sci fi out there, the super evolved high-tech worlds never really interested me as much as quasi-medieval-ish societies. No idea why. The funny thing is that i, for example, really enjoyed The Expanse as a TV Show. So it's not that i never consume any sci fi, it's just that it's more of a TV thing for me than a book thing. Maybe i need to retry some epic space opera sometime.

But for now, i will read some more epic fantasy And as i just received the newest Osten Ard book, I know what will occupy my more immediate future.

But feel free to throw in more Recs if something comes to mind.

I prefer secondary world fantasy to anything in our world, btw, but i might give some interesting historical "fantasy" a try. I'm more into swords and magic stuff (aka "medieval" fantasy) than, for example Urban Fantasy as in Dresden Files.
Medieval doesn't have to mean that the world is in an equivalent of medieval earth-time. It can easily be bronze age stuff or quasi-Renaissance stuff...just not modern equivalents. And to be honest (yes, i know i have very particular tastes ) I am also not that big a fan of gunpowder stuff mixed into my sword and sorcery. It's not an immediate unsell, but i prefer close combat duels to shoot outs

And while i know that there is nothing like Malazan out there, I meant it more in spirit...for example as i said, i think that Bakker is pretty on par with Erikson. He has the deep worldbuilding, the complex plots and the epic feel (and even darker than MBotF) that I am looking for and his writing style is also very much to my liking.

Cheers!

[Puck]

John II, on 05 May 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:

Finally, Sanderson's magic systems are wonderful; only Brent Weeks' Lightbringer and Brian McLellan's Powder Mage can compare. Erikson's Warrens are somewhat poor in comparison.

The Warrens/Holds are what happens when archaeologists/anthropologists design a magic system. They are fluid and organic because nature and minds are organic and, most importantly, not static. There is an evolution that comes with the world itself and its inhabitants evolving as well. Sandersons magic systems are anime-esque because they were obviously designed by a mind outside the world they are working in and are static. They are not meant to have a function outside the immediate story they are used in. Their rules can be exploited, but remain unmovable. Whichever of these extremes you like is up to you, but as we already discussed in our little discussion about language in TtH, you not liking somethign does not make it objectively bad. I, for example, think that Sanderson's everything, not just magic systems, read like he threw shit at a wall and waited which of the smelliest pieces stuck, but that's just my opinion and you're welcome to feel otherwise.

The thing with Sanderson is that his approach to writing and his entire philosophy about writing is the exact opposite of SE's. Sanderson writes for the lowest common denominator. That's not even me slandering him, it's his professed goal. If you do not believe me, go listen to his podcast about writing. This approach cannot not produce simplistic writing in all regards (and magic systems which are a Magic A is Magic A kind of thing are, in their core, simplistic, no matter how many rules they have, because there is no need for the reader to think along - once you have been presented with the rules, you can just coast along), but simplicity appeals to the masses, which is Sanderson's other goal: to appeal to the masses. Which makes him so successful and I have no beef with that, just with people who go around claiming it's the only valid and/or "good" approach.

For a magic system that has the best of both worlds, I would nominate that of Bakker.

Karsa Orlong, on 05 May 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

Oh, it seems i have hit a sore spot in this community?! ^^ Anyway, thanks for expanding on Sanderson for a bit. As i said, i have the first Stormlight novel here but never really got into it. I will probably try again sometime.

As has already been said, this discussion has been had in about 75% of threads by now and flares up every time Maark has one of his Sanderson-tourettes-moments or a new user comes along who hasn't yet learned that you do not talk about Sanderson here outside the designated threads.

This post has been edited by Puck: 05 May 2019 - 09:07 PM

[Andorion]

Puck, on 05 May 2019 - 09:02 PM, said:

John II, on 05 May 2019 - 09:10 AM, said:

Finally, Sanderson's magic systems are wonderful; only Brent Weeks' Lightbringer and Brian McLellan's Powder Mage can compare. Erikson's Warrens are somewhat poor in comparison.

The Warrens/Holds are what happens when archaeologists/anthropologists design a magic system. They are fluid and organic because nature and minds are organic and, most importantly, not static. There is an evolution that comes with the world itself and its inhabitants evolving as well. Sandersons magic systems are anime-esque because they were obviously designed by a mind outside the world they are working in and are static. They are not meant to have a function outside the immediate story they are used in. Their rules can be exploited, but remain unmovable. Whichever of these extremes you like is up to you, but as we already discussed in our little discussion about language in TtH, you not liking somethign does not make it objectively bad. I, for example, think that Sanderson's everything, not just magic systems, read like he threw shit at a wall and waited which of the smelliest pieces stuck, but that's just my opinion and you're welcome to feel otherwise.

The thing with Sanderson is that his approach to writing and his entire philosophy about writing is the exact opposite of SE's. Sanderson writes for the lowest common denominator. That's not even me slandering him, it's his professed goal. If you do not believe me, go listen to his podcast about writing. This approach cannot not produce simplistic writing in all regards (and magic systems which are a Magic A is Magic A kind of thing are, in their core, simplistic, no matter how many rules they have, because there is no need for the reader to think along - once you have been presented with the rules, you can just coast along), but simplicity appeals to the masses, which is Sanderson's other goal: to appeal to the masses. Which makes him so successful and I have no beef with that, just with people who go around claiming it's the only valid and/or "good" approach.

For a magic system that has the best of both worlds, I would nominate that of Bakker.

Karsa Orlong, on 05 May 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

Oh, it seems i have hit a sore spot in this community?! ^^ Anyway, thanks for expanding on Sanderson for a bit. As i said, i have the first Stormlight novel here but never really got into it. I will probably try again sometime.

As has already been said, this discussion has been had in about 75% of threads by now and flares up every time Maark has one of his Sanderson-tourettes-moments or a new user comes along who hasn't yet learned that you do not talk about Sanderson here outside the designated threads.

Re: Sanderson - I compare his magic system to arithmetic. Each quantity has a defined value, and through simple combinations, you get different values. This has a weird parallel in his naming convention and obsession with using nominal compounds - Oathbringer, chasmfiend, brightlord etc etc.

Re: Bakker - Philosophy made manifest in magic? I dunno, I still prefer SE and QB cutting loose.

[Abyss]

The first rule of magic fight club is: you do not talk about magic fight club.

[acesn8s]

I hit up my Goodreads completed list looking for something epic to suggest....

It's really tough.

How about:
Fred Saberhagen's books of sword series(es)
Moorcock's Elric series
The Thieves World series (edited by Robert Lynn Asprin)
Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos or Khaavren series
Django Wexler's Shadow Campaigns (flintlock fantasy)
Sebastien de Castell's Greatcoats series (swashbuckling fantasy)
Mickey Zucker Reichert's Renshai Chronicles
Stephen Donaldson's The Chronicles of Thomas Covenant the Unbeliever
Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame (Portal Fantasy)

[Puck]

Andorion, on 06 May 2019 - 01:38 AM, said:

Re: Sanderson - I compare his magic system to arithmetic. Each quantity has a defined value, and through simple combinations, you get different values. This has a weird parallel in his naming convention and obsession with using nominal compounds - Oathbringer, chasmfiend, brightlord etc etc.

Re: Bakker - Philosophy made manifest in magic? I dunno, I still prefer SE and QB cutting loose.

As you've said, simple combinations. It's of course just my personal opinion, but for me Sandersons magic systems (and books in general, mind you) hold no wonder at all, and wonder and discovery are one reason I read fantasy. I want to be challenged in same way. Sanderson gives me none of that.

Re Bakker: I love his magic system. I makes sense to me even though I do not actually understand the minutiae, largely because I don't need to. Though the Malazan Warrens/Holds are still my favourite magic system. As far as magic systems go, I even prefer that of Hobb's Skill and Wit over anything Sandy can dredge up, and despite my eternal, searing hate of FitzChivalry Farseer.

[QuickTidal]

Abyss, on 03 May 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Karsa Orlong, on 03 May 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

..let me give you a counter rec for people looking for worthy fantasy series: I really dig Michelle West's stuff in her Sun Sword world. Very richly imagined world and she really has a grasp when it comes to characterization. Very good. The only one that had a comparable emotional impact on me as a reader was Guy Gavriel Kay (but she writes pretty differently, so don't take that as a "If you love Kay, you will definitely love West" kind of endorsement!).

Re SUN SWORD... i've eyed that a few times but it always seemed kind of YA'ish. Good to see a reco.

I'm starting this series soon (first book is wining its way to me from Amazon), but not starting with the Sun Sword portion...read on...

So this is interesting, Michelle (Sagara) West (who, coincidentally is a Torontonian, as is GGK) has three series that interweave time periods but all take place in the same universe (with a varying set of reading orders)...the Sacred Hunt Duology (which she wrote first), The Sun Sword Series (6 books), and The House War series (8 books when it's completed in June of this year).

The reading order (or at least the one I've chosen to follow) is:

House War 1-3 (Starting with THE HIDDEN CITY)
Sacred Hunt 1 & 2
The Sun Sword 1-6
House War 4-8

And Abyss, are you sure you're not thinking of her other Series the "Cast In" books which seem like Urban-Yet-Alt-World-Fantasy? Sun Sword, and the others don't seem very YA to me.

Anyways, I'll chime in once I've started, but I've heard this whole series/world is very in depth, so I can see Karsa recommending it.

Plus, it's always nice to support a local author.

This post has been edited by QuickTidal: 30 May 2019 - 05:25 PM

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 30 May 2019 - 05:24 PM, said:

Abyss, on 03 May 2019 - 02:11 PM, said:

Karsa Orlong, on 03 May 2019 - 01:33 PM, said:

..let me give you a counter rec for people looking for worthy fantasy series: I really dig Michelle West's stuff in her Sun Sword world. Very richly imagined world and she really has a grasp when it comes to characterization. Very good. The only one that had a comparable emotional impact on me as a reader was Guy Gavriel Kay (but she writes pretty differently, so don't take that as a "If you love Kay, you will definitely love West" kind of endorsement!).

Re SUN SWORD... i've eyed that a few times but it always seemed kind of YA'ish. Good to see a reco.

I'm starting this series soon (first book is wining its way to me from Amazon), but not starting with the Sun Sword portion...read on...

So this is interesting, Michelle (Sagara) West (who, coincidentally is a Torontonian, as is GGK) has three series that interweave time periods but all take place in the same universe (with a varying set of reading orders)...the Sacred Hunt Duology (which she wrote first), The Sun Sword Series (6 books), and The House War series (8 books when it's completed in June of this year).

The reading order (or at least the one I've chosen to follow) is:

House War 1-3 (Starting with THE HIDDEN CITY)
Sacred Hunt 1 & 2
The Sun Sword 1-6
House War 4-8

And Abyss, are you sure you're not thinking of her other Series the "Cast In" books which seem like Urban-Yet-Alt-World-Fantasy? Sun Sword, and the others don't seem very YA to me.

Anyways, I'll chime in once I've started, but I've heard this whole series/world is very in depth, so I can see Karsa recommending it.

Plus, it's always nice to support a local author.

I have read a few of the Cast in books. They are actually pretty great.