[Andorion]

amphibian, on 29 April 2019 - 05:12 AM, said:

HoosierDaddy, on 29 April 2019 - 03:50 AM, said:

None of us are Alexander, but everyone seems to have a common thought: Who in the hell set up that tactical formation and strategy? Pormqual-esque.

Let's take the biggest group of calvary that exists in the world and smash it directly into a horde ten times its number, while conveniently forgetting that every dead person adds to their number.

Let's take the finest infantry on the planet and make them fight singly instead of in a phalanx with cavalry shearing off the edges.

Let's make the all important trench three feet deep.

Let's put the trebuchets ahead of the infantry and have them all lost as soon as the battle begins.

Let's not man the walls while the trench works.

Let's split up the dragons when they're hunting a man who killed a dragon with an icicle and now rides it.

The directors and writers broke all kinds of battle rules to force together moments that ended up falling flat anyways. That's the big problem.

Everybody (except Arya) came off as sooo dumb
It seemed to me that they had no overarching strategy at all.

You have a giant undead army, but you know that the Lynchpin is the Night King.

You know that he has a dragon. So its clear that the only way you can win is by trying to kill the Night King.

The only way to kill the Nightking is through Dragonglass or Valyrian steel.

So make an elite squad and equip them with that. Use the dragons to try and ground the undead dragon, use the assassination squad.

The rest of the army must be configured to defense. Deep, multiple trenches, phalanxes covered on the flanks by cavalry and reinforced by archers and trebuchets. Fire traps everywhere.

That's your best chance.
What happened was beyond moronic.

[amphibian]

"But it's good TV!" may be a response.

I think there could have been a restructure of this story that involves the trench network that makes sense, using that to bait out the Night King as he smashes walls, having an alpha strike go awry, people crash land next to the castle, the Mormont moment still happens, the Night King looks unbeatable due to foiling a good strong alpha strike, then Arya fucks him up.

But no, we get nonsense because the spectacle of a massed charge appeals mightily to someone high up.

[nacht]

What happened to Jon's dragon, Raegal.

[worry]

I can’t argue with all of that military stuff, but things like deep trenches and fire traps seem impossible during the most brutal supernatural winter in centuries. Especially for a small, hungry, resource-starved group of mostly non-military people who are depending on dragons and a Hail Mary (that actually did almost succeed, if NK hadn’t been dragonfireproof). But like, the Dothraki aren’t a cavalry really. They’re horse-raiders, newly united from smaller clans. Grey Worm and co aren’t strategists, they’re particularly dangerous fodder. And the leaders at Winterfell are mostly children who are not war-trained. Why should any of these people — aside from Jaime I guess, who just arrived, and Royce who didn’t seem to appear in this one — know to do any of this? Everyone else who might is dead or far away. I guess my point is expecting this group to have fought a ‘smart’ battle is just as film-logicy as what happened.

Or not. I guess I’m just jawing. B&W are neither as clever nor painstaking as GRRM, so it’s plausible they just didn’t think hard enough about it or bother with seeking expertise. Maybe they just accidentally stumbled into that unglamorous truth about wars: by and large, they’re fought by rival dumbasses.

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

A bit disappointed with it tbh. Battle tactics aside, it's the same problem with most night battles - you can't see half of what's going on and all the shaky cam of people struggling really didn't help that aspect. There were a few characters I have no clear idea if they're dead or not (which probably means they aren't) but it feels like poor structuring if you create that sort of uncertainty. Most notably, Rhaegal seemed to fall down but I didn't get a sense whether he'd actually died or not.

Night King felt too direct, and the insanely slow walk and buildup was just "meh". Also he ended up as completely one-dimensional as I feared - I am evil and want to destroy everything just because. I was hoping for something a little more involved but possibly the books will (if they ever arrive) do that.

Felt like a bit of a letdown after last week really.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 April 2019 - 08:58 AM

[Andorion]

worry, on 29 April 2019 - 06:45 AM, said:

I can't argue with all of that military stuff, but things like deep trenches and fire traps seem impossible during the most brutal supernatural winter in centuries. Especially for a small, hungry, resource-starved group of mostly non-military people who are depending on dragons and a Hail Mary (that actually did almost succeed, if NK hadn't been dragonfireproof). But like, the Dothraki aren't a cavalry really. They're horse-raiders, newly united from smaller clans. Grey Worm and co aren't strategists, they're particularly dangerous fodder. And the leaders at Winterfell are mostly children who are not war-trained. Why should any of these people — aside from Jaime I guess, who just arrived, and Royce who didn't seem to appear in this one — know to do any of this? Everyone else who might is dead or far away. I guess my point is expecting this group to have fought a 'smart' battle is just as film-logicy as what happened.

Or not. I guess I'm just jawing. B&W are neither as clever nor painstaking as GRRM, so it's plausible they just didn't think hard enough about it or bother with seeking expertise. Maybe they just accidentally stumbled into that unglamorous truth about wars: by and large, they're fought by rival dumbasses.

They had 8000+ superbly fit Unsullied and 2 dragons. Dragons melt the ice, provide heat, the Unsullied dig, you have better trenches.

The Dothraki are your classic light cavalry. Light cavalry never ever charges into a mass. They harass and harry, hit the flanks and move out, then come back for more. Putting them in a huge mass in the centre is the worst thing you can do with them.

[worry]

Yah I suppose dragons coulda been useful for that. Okay, I'm convinced!

[worry]

But you will never convince me that the same group who made that decision could form an elite death squad.

[Traveller]

I spent the first half squinting at the screen to see what was going on.

That charge reminded me of the equally dumb one in Return of the King, where cavalry charges a load of archers hidden by ruins. But maybe dumber, why charge and fire trebuchet if you can't even see anyone? They should have let the dragons light it up to start with, and saved their cavalry entirely.

Too many near misses, and the crypt was wasted, I wanted Dead Ned!

Actually, what bugs me the most about these episodes is the lack of real human behaviour to... anything. People stand in line, silently watching undead hordes. Dany and Jon on dragons, searching for the NK - just sitting looking at each other. Soldiers and well known characters just seeing this stuff, and theres no reaction, no cursing or pointing or anything, just blank holes where real people would be reacting.

And then the slowest walk of the NK to Bran - and they don't even say anything before they're interrupted. I found it frustrating to watch.

Is it because they have to pay people if they get lines or something? Even those in the crypt just yelled a bit, there was no cries or warnings or speaking.

This post has been edited by Traveller: 29 April 2019 - 09:53 AM

[Malankazooie]

The episode being too dark, not being able to see what is happening during the early fighting has been a big complaint.

I think they threw any logical idea of battle tactics out the window and went for maximum effect. The Dothraki with flaming arakhs charging at the army of the dead at night was quite an impressive site from afar. Only to see those flaming swords extinguished. That had to have been a 'brown your whites' moment for those watching. And you could tell that's the effect the scene was going for.

One of my favorite moments was the 'dracarys' moment Dany thought would put an end to the Night King. After the flames subsided, that subtle smirk/evil smile though, amirite? Then like a baller, he deals with the annoyance of Jon by going - 'here, play with your dead comrades, beyotch'. Raises the dead and stays on mission towards the Godswood.

So, I guess Ghost can be added to the list of those who died? booooooo! Another throw away if you ask me. They have him back, only to charge into the dead with the Dothraki, to never be heard from again? Or do you think he's still out there somewhere? He'll probably show up in the background when Jon is having a discussion with Sam on the parapets.

Also, about those who died and those who didn't. How the hell is Sam still alive? or is he?

Also, crazy Melisandre just magically appears. Didn't she leave Westeros?

[TheRetiredBridgeburner]

Malankazooie, on 29 April 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

Also, crazy Melisandre just magically appears. Didn't she leave Westeros?

I think she did, but she did tell Varys she would come back - "I am fated to die in this strange land" or something like that, so I was expecting her to return in time to do some fire magic.

This post has been edited by TheRetiredBridgeburner: 29 April 2019 - 01:35 PM

[paran falcon]

My issues with the episode, which was more than a little disappointing to me, are the same as most others here. A couple things I haven't seem mentioned yet: They all knew that their own dead could be "raised" against them at any time as long as the NK was still "alive". Yet there was no plan to burn the dead asap? I might have thought there would be groups, even small ones, assigned to that duty. There were no oil vats to be dumped over the walls to be lit ablaze?

Jon Snow is an idiot and seemingly wants to return to death. He nearly committed suicide in the Battle of the Bastards and yet learned nothing because he did the exact same thing here. Running at the NK alone from 100 yards or more through piles of dead. Brilliant. He may be a good/great swordsman but he has no brains at all. I was wishing for him to die by the time he was contemplating taking on the dragon.

Theon's final charge strategy was right up there with Jon's. No feint, no subterfuge, just a straight on charge with a spear. How inventive. But then they show him not dead yet, to no purpose whatsoever. I actually thought MAYBE he'd have a dragonglass dagger to stick in one of the lieutenants at least, but no.
Arya's dagger drop to her right hand was one of the best moments by far. I actually thought for a moment they were going to kill her off, with her having failed to make the stab. I'd like to know what/where she actually launched herself from but that would probably detract from one of the scenes I actually liked so...

I hated that Lyanna Mormont died. I was with Abyss, she was probably my second favorite character after Arya. She did get a pretty great send off, though, and proved she had more steel in her than Theon did.

This post has been edited by paran falcon: 29 April 2019 - 02:49 PM

[Slow Ben]

Malankazooie, on 29 April 2019 - 12:59 PM, said:

So, I guess Ghost can be added to the list of those who died? booooooo! Another throw away if you ask me. They have him back, only to charge into the dead with the Dothraki, to never be heard from again? Or do you think he's still out there somewhere? He'll probably show up in the background when Jon is having a discussion with Sam on the parapets.

Also, about those who died and those who didn't. How the hell is Sam still alive? or is he?

Ghost and Rhaegal were moth in the trailer for ep 4.


I think Sam being alive after that is the most far fetched thing that has happened in 8+ seasons.

[QuickTidal]

I think you're all nuts. I loved it. Start to finish.

The tactics complaint is a weird one. The tactics weren't supposed to work. That's the point. We are meant to see them losing at every interval. If they succeeded in their tactics (even in smaller increments), then we never get to that point narratively and it robs the show of the desperation (and remember that we are on a schedule to get a lot of shit done and seen....in 80 minutes even this was tight). So yeah, they made mistakes in planning, but it's by design. I don't need some sort of airtight tactics and defense that the bad guys really have to work to overwhelm...the point is they overwhelm. I could give two shits about how that occurred and what mistakes the good guys made to get us there. This isn't a battle they were meant to EVER have the upper hand in. It was a fucking slaughter that would have ended in everyone's death without Theon (YES. Fucking THEON!), and Arya (and the Red Witch)...I felt that from minute one until the end. My wife even said that it's hands-down the greatest 80minutes of TV she's ever watched. It's second place for me (after LOST's S4 ep, THE CONSTANT).

[Andorion]

QuickTidal, on 29 April 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

I think you're all nuts. I loved it. Start to finish.

The tactics complaint is a weird one. The tactics weren't supposed to work. That's the point. We are meant to see them losing at every interval. If they succeeded in their tactics (even in smaller increments), then we never get to that point narratively and it robs the show of the desperation (and remember that we are on a schedule to get a lot of shit done and seen....in 80 minutes even this was tight). So yeah, they made mistakes in planning, but it's by design. I don't need some sort of airtight tactics and defense that the bad guys really have to work to overwhelm...the point is they overwhelm. I could give two shits about how that occurred and what mistakes the good guys made to get us there. This isn't a battle they were meant to EVER have the upper hand in. It was a fucking slaughter that would have ended in everyone's death without Theon (YES. Fucking THEON!), and Arya (and the Red Witch)...I felt that from minute one until the end. My wife even said that it's hands-down the greatest 80minutes of TV she's ever watched. It's second place for me (after LOST's S4 ep, THE CONSTANT).

Yes, they were supposed to be desperate. Being desperate does not mean that you don't plan properly.

Having a good strategy would have improved the gravity of the episode. They have defenses, defenses seem to be working, you think they have a chance, then the NK enters, and turns the tide, the zombies sweep over everything, the Unsullied make a grand stand at the gate, Jorah leads the Dothraki on a doomed charge to rescue a downed Dany and Drogon.... that would make a better episode.

[Slow Ben]

I agree about the strategy, but those flaming swords disappearing from a distant was pretty fucking awesome.

And did its job in inspiring a sense of dread/doom.

[nacht]

Slow Ben, on 29 April 2019 - 02:31 PM, said:

I agree about the strategy, but those flaming swords disappearing from a distant was pretty fucking awesome.

And did its job in inspiring a sense of dread/doom.

But what an inglorious end to the Dothraki. Khal Drogo is weeping somewhere.

And what a waste of Melisandrae and the Night King.
Two great characters extinguished without any depth other than the buildup.

Two subtle touches would have enhanced these storylines.
Melisandrae as priestess of Rhollor commited to destroying the Night King (I can only imagine that is her goal, wasting her life). Perhaps do some badass fire magic, instead of lighting useless torches, and burn/sacrifice herself.

Spoiler

like The Protectoress unveiling Kurald Liosan by sacrificing herself
or Beak

and Arya, virgin of Death, going Apsalar/Kalam on the Night King. I can can only imagine that many faced god of death was working through Arya.


They snuffed out three storylines in this eipisode (many-faced god, rhollor, and night king in a b-grade zombie movie ending).

This post has been edited by nacht: 30 April 2019 - 08:10 PM

[QuickTidal]

Andorion, on 29 April 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

QuickTidal, on 29 April 2019 - 02:21 PM, said:

I think you're all nuts. I loved it. Start to finish.

The tactics complaint is a weird one. The tactics weren't supposed to work. That's the point. We are meant to see them losing at every interval. If they succeeded in their tactics (even in smaller increments), then we never get to that point narratively and it robs the show of the desperation (and remember that we are on a schedule to get a lot of shit done and seen....in 80 minutes even this was tight). So yeah, they made mistakes in planning, but it's by design. I don't need some sort of airtight tactics and defense that the bad guys really have to work to overwhelm...the point is they overwhelm. I could give two shits about how that occurred and what mistakes the good guys made to get us there. This isn't a battle they were meant to EVER have the upper hand in. It was a fucking slaughter that would have ended in everyone's death without Theon (YES. Fucking THEON!), and Arya (and the Red Witch)...I felt that from minute one until the end. My wife even said that it's hands-down the greatest 80minutes of TV she's ever watched. It's second place for me (after LOST's S4 ep, THE CONSTANT).

Yes, they were supposed to be desperate. Being desperate does not mean that you don't plan properly.

And if they planned properly, we get a more competent defence....which prolongs the already long-ass runtime of the episode. The fact that their plans were so cleanly and often speedily overrun made the thing click by fast enough to fit it all in. And I mean, they spent the BUDGET on this episode too. This is a logistic tv-show making aspect that may be harder to suss out. If you allow for a much more competent defence, you push the length of battle too long...and then if you did that but then have to cut and edit that length it would seem more disjointed overall. This was the easiest way to get the point of the episode across without needing it to be 2 episodes (man, they were NOT getting enough money to make TWO 80minute episodes on this one battle. Not a chance.) It's not perfect, but it served its purpose fine for me.

Andorion, on 29 April 2019 - 02:28 PM, said:

Having a good strategy would have improved the gravity of the episode. They have defenses, defenses seem to be working, you think they have a chance, then the NK enters, and turns the tide, the zombies sweep over everything, the Unsullied make a grand stand at the gate, Jorah leads the Dothraki on a doomed charge to rescue a downed Dany and Drogon.... that would make a better episode.

I don't think we are ever meant to see them having a chance though. I think that's the entire point of the opening sequence, the lighting the Dothraki blades, the advancing flames getting summarily extinguished one by one until nothing is left but a pervasive and foreboding darkness. I think that the good forces are meant to be on the back foot for the whole episode after that. There is no chance, at least not a viable one. Arya tells Sansa to go into the crypts for this reason. She sees it early on. This is not going to go well.

The episode was more than fine for me, but I think perhaps people expected more what you are talking about. Which yes, would have also been fine. I just think this was always meant to be a near-rout from the first moment, and we were never supposed to see hope in it...and the hope that does come (Arya), happens late in the game and we weren't expecting it.

Just my two cents on how I saw it mind you, I accept that others have a totally different view/feeling after. My "you're all nuts" tongue-in-cheek comment aside.

I also don't think the average viewer will view the tactics as the problem people (like us) who read fantasy war books all the time would think it is.

[paran falcon]

My daughter is telling me that elsewhere people are nitpicking that Arya stabbed the NK with her off (right) hand. I don't think I had remembered in that moment that she was left handed. Either way, I think her move shows that she might be the ONLY one left with any real brains. Either she dove at the NK with the dagger in her dominant hand and was lightning quick under pressure to make the switch with the drop to the right hand OR she dove that way anticipating being stopped on initial attack and had a plan to go offhand to finish the job. LOVE HER.

[Azath Vitr (D'ivers]

paran falcon, on 29 April 2019 - 04:29 PM, said:

My daughter is telling me that elsewhere people are nitpicking that Arya stabbed the NK with her off (right) hand. I don't think I had remembered in that moment that she was left handed. Either way, I think her move shows that she might be the ONLY one left with any real brains. Either she dove at the NK with the dagger in her dominant hand and was lightning quick under pressure to make the switch with the drop to the right hand OR she dove that way anticipating being stopped on initial attack and had a plan to go offhand to finish the job. LOVE HER.

It was subtle, but previous episodes did set it up:


https://www.buzzfeed...81O76jv6MMZ5bc4

'We even see Arya's hand-switching trick when she fights Brienne in Season 7.'

'And in the Season 8 premiere, Arya sneaks up on Jon in the very spot she later sneaks up on the Night King.'

Could have been so much better if they just cut a few of the cheesier or more boring parts for some more Many-Faced God / Faceless and Rh'lorr....