[Folken]

Imperial Historian said:

I can't quite seewhat your objection to dassem being the seguleh second is...

The seguleh second is "missing", now presumably he must have left under his own power, and it's concievable he could have run into dassem, or someone equally skilled, and with the whole seguleh culture of fighting anyone who you think might be better than you if the heirachy is in any doubt, challenged him and presumably been killed or I'd doubt he'd still be missing.

Dassem or someone else then becomes seguleh second without ever having visited the seguleh isle. With the assumption that traveller=dassem, or is travelling aorund, it's possible with the whole convergence thing that they would have come into contact with each other at some point.

As to the increasing levels of power thing... I don't buy that, conflict between seguleh ensues when one refuses to show deference ot the other, so if dassem had bumped into the second and refused to show deference they'd have fought right then and there, i don't think you'd have to fight through all the intermediate levels...

Im sorry I forgot to add that Rake was a foreigner to the island and so obviously the Selugh had no way of judging his skill. Therefore they might attacked in terms of rank I suppose. With Dassem what you say is entirely plausiable.

The reason why I don't believe it is Dassem, is because that would mean too many identities for one different individual. But then again I could be completely wrong and it is Dassem and he became 2nd through one of his many travels. Nevertheless for now I'd like to stay away from that theory, just so things stay a little less complicated.

[Trotts]

yea i think the idea of daseem travelling around and runninto numero dos in one of his many travels quite plausible.

[Tiste Simeon]

Jen said:

Im sorry I forgot to add that Rake was a foreigner to the island and so obviously the Selugh had no way of judging his skill. Therefore they might attacked in terms of rank I suppose. With Dassem what you say is entirely plausiable.

I think Tool mentions that they kept coming one at a time, and when he got to 7th place he fled cos he was worn out, and much impressed by the sheer brilliance of the fighters.

[Omras Ghum]

iirc rake provoked the seguleh by wearing a plain white mask and walking down the mainstreet of their capitol... he's arrogant, isn't he?

[Zendog13]

Indeed he is Omras. I am assuming we all agree that no magic was used on Rakes part? I cant remember for certain but I dont recall the mention of magic being used by the Seguleh or Rake. Also can annyone figure out if this meeting was pre or post Dragnipur?
As for Dasem, assuming he is Traveller who has just been deemed worthy of the posession of a rather... unique sword and also asuming he is Seg2nd, well his meeting with the 1st will most certanly be of interest.
Here's to hoping they meet...

[Omras Ghum]

I am sure rake did not use magic because if he had the seguleh would have been blasted to smithereens...

And I'm also confident Rake visited the island long after acquiring dragnipur as the books clearly state that draconus was slain by rake shortly after he finished dragnipur - which is far longer ago than rake's visit to the seguleh island...

[Trotts]

rakes had dragnipur for a very very long time. i think in gotm k'rul even says that rake had dragnipur long before he [k'rul] came about

[garden_rake]

would that then mean that he possibly has some of the seguleh hierarchy pulling the old wagon in the sword? i know not all contests are fatal but dragnipur has a kind of a will of its own does it not?

[Omras Ghum]

doesn't lady envy tell the three seguleh something like this when they talk about rake's visit to the island? i seem to remember it goes something like

mok: we want him (rake) to cliam his 7th rank
envy: you do know you will then have to fight him? do you realize what happened to those rake defeated during his visit? [and then she goes on about them pulling the wagon inside dragnipur]
mok: those of us who are defeated have failed. those of us who fail don't matter

...is my memory faulty??... :Erm:

[Trotts]

yea i definetly remember that.

i dunno, it seems to me that rake is a bit of an evil character, i mean, hes bored and travelling around and go to an island and enslaves a number of innocent warriors in his sword. prolly because the sword needs to feed, but to me that makes rake an evil bastard

[garden_rake]

yeah but you can argue that the function of dragnipur is noble(ish), in other words, to rake keeping the gate to KG away from the 'poison' of chaos is much more important than a couple of seguleh stupid enough to fight him

[Omras Ghum]

to me rake is a very noble man (if man is the right term here) - in MoI i got the impression he willingly carries the burden and cost of making decisions so that others can live freely (when WJ realizes rake wanted to slay those tenescowri witches to save WJ the burden) - i much prefer him wielding dragnipur over some brute with one brow who just keeps slashing people
rake knows what's in store for those he strikes down and he to me seems very careful about who he enslaves for eternity

[Trotts]

i know, in moi, when he talks to whiskeyjack, it seems clear that hes a noble person

i guess its more complicated then i allowed, becuase within dragnipur is something, either kurald galain or mother dark or something like that, and even though rake needs to feed it by killing what he can, he doesnt want to stop and let mother dark (or whatever) be lost

but still, when envy is talking about the seguleh event i get the distinct impression that rake was just bored, and went to the island for fun. but his fun cost a number of seguleh an eternity trapped in the sword.

[Folken]

Rake is like Batman. He has this need to be humanized at every turn. It's like the only thing keeping him alive is the responsibility over his Andii. Without him they are lost and so he keeps going.

[Trotts]

but just getting back on topic, when envy describes the rake/seguleh, doesnt it sound like he went there on a whim? like he was bored, and he went to have fun, and he sent a number of seguleh to a fate far worse then death.

[Zendog13]

Being bored and seeking a bit of excitement/entertainment doesnt mean he went there seeking and/or ready to kill seguleh. It appears he was completely ignorant of their culture. Thus he did what only comes naturally when someone suddenly tries to do away with your life. Yes his modus operandi when visiting was...misguided or crass to say the least but that does not make him evil.

[Trotts]

he was bored so he went to the island and in doing so denied a number of segulah the peace of death, and instead trapped them in his sword. an eternity pulling that wagon, because rake wanted some fun

[Blind]

Rake doesn't seem to consider that killing is fun. He wanted to spent time among mortals, and he picked a mask in order to fit in. Only his attitude didn't fit at all. Remember, draconus said he was too merciful for that sword.

[Trotts]

"Taking human form and fashioning a mask for himself, he elected to walk down the city's main thoroughfare. Being naturally arrogant, he showed no deference to any who crossed his path..."

so he walked down the street and killed anyone who bothered him. only he doesnt just kill them, he sends them into dragnipur. for no reason at all.

at the same time:

"The wagon carries the gate, the gate into Kurald Galain, the warren of Darkness. The sword gathers souls to seel it... such a wound it must be, to demand so many souls..."

so rake has an obligation to mother dark, and he must try to seal the wound.