[DEVA]

Reading for second time and been wracking my brain deciphering if Dassem Ultor, after leaving the service of Hood, became the Seguleh First. Doesnt matter he appears as Traveler (sp). Doesnt matter if he ascended to become Dessembrae. Yea or Nah ?

[Imperial Historian]

Dassem is almost certainly not the Seguleh First, as 1) the seguleh first is on the seguleh isle 2) Krula nd envy refer to the seguleh first and daseem ultor in the same conversation, the implication being that they are not the same person

Dassem might be the seguleh second though...

[Trotts]

from reading about the segulah i always get the feeling that the first is a segulah himself

[DEVA]

Since K'rul says the second is missing ....

[Zendog13]

Dont suppose annyone would care to pop over to their isle and ask them eh? No? Pitty.....

[Tiste Simeon]

I'm waiting for Anomander to get himself back over there... *drools with anticipation*

[MottIrregular]

Someone tell me which pages of the paperback MoI is the convo between K'rul and Envy? i cant seem to find it

[kaf09]

I cannot even accept that Dassem Ultor is the Segulah 2nd (even if the author had not vetoed the idea). Can you imagine the preliminaries?

(DU): "I am Dassem Ultor, one time preeminent fighting man of a foreign empire. I do not acknowledge equals and recognize no superiors. I am a Bad Ass!"

(Segulah 1st): "Well actually, I am the preeminent swordsman of a a highly hierarchical, militaristic society. I am numero uno and equally bad ass. Bring it on."


The inevitable fight ensues, and who would tip the victor? But can you imagine that the victor would let the his opponent survive the fight? Likewise, would the vanquished opponent, in the unlikely event he survived the conflict, say to the victor, "well, actually you are better than me, now I am going to bugger off"? I supect duels at that level are likely to be one off affairs with no rematch due to the death of one opponent.

[Trotts]

i think it works more like

im daseem ultor, i am badass!

oh ya? im the segulah ranked second of all the warriors in my isle!

and then daseem is sorta like, slash slash hack parry slash

and then the second is like, oh no, i am slain!

and then the first is liek, okay daseem ultor is the new second

[Blend]

Now imagine an entire MBOtF novel written like that...

[Trotts]

not quite as captivating, haha

[Zendog13]

Must be hell meeting the inlaws on the island eh? Wouldnt want to be dating the daughter of a higher-ranking Seguleh...

[Folken]

Or all of us could try to keep the quality of discussion at an acceptable level? eh? no?

But kaf09 posses a good question. Dassem Ultor = First Sword = no equal. Someone like Tool giving up is acceptable, considering hes lived for oh so many hunderdred thousand years. But I wouldn't see Ultor just letting him live or atleast not force submission if he was able to get himself up to the 2nd level.

I don't believe Dassem is the 2nd for the reason kaf09 has just posted and others.

[Trotts]

what do you think happened? as far as i can tell, the way people move up in rank is by killing the person higher. therefore to become the second you must kill the second

[Folken]

Well my theory is from what we know about Anomanders time on the island and how they attacked Tool one by one. He fought them one by one, because they attacked him one by one. Now it is only logical to assume they attacked in form of rank and he was able to get himself to 7th before he got worn out.

[Trotts]

in terms of being acknowledged you have to fight from lower rank to upper rank.

path 1)
so, lets suppose rake killed like 30 people in asecnding order up to 7th, until he got bored. and so he got ranked maybe 7th

path 2)
rake came to the island, sought out the 7th specifically, and killed him.


i dont see why in either case he wouldnt attain the rank of 7th.

[kaf09]

CountChocula said:

in terms of being acknowledged you have to fight from lower rank to upper rank.

path 1)
so, lets suppose rake killed like 30 people in asecnding order up to 7th, until he got bored. and so he got ranked maybe 7th

path 2)
rake came to the island, sought out the 7th specifically, and killed him.


i dont see why in either case he wouldnt attain the rank of 7th.

Well quite so, but I recall from MoI that when Rake was on the island (out of sheer curiosity) did nothing to keep a low profile and earned the ire of the hierarchical Segulah. He must have been met by a succession of opponents, from initiate level to proper ranks, all of increasingly prodigious skill. Rake's retreat was understandable under the circumstances and I fully agree that he "Blacksword" is number seven in rank.

The Seguleh second on the other hand, when he went "missing" (doubtless to buy a packet of cigarette papers), perhaps he met Dassem Ultor on the way there, perhaps he fell down a hole, perhaps he had an epiphany and joined a non violent religious sect, or perhaps he was discovered by a Hollywood talent agent and is now is no. 1 consultant for sword and sorcery epics.

Or maybe Dassem Ultor did come to the island, mayhem ensues as in Rake's visit, and DU gets to almost the top of the ladder after despatching the 2nd with ease(?), and then says, "well now for the first". Seguleh 3rd, 4th, etc. all newly promoted and secretly delighted to move up a notch, say "he is off on his annual holiday, he won't be back till next week". DU: "Bugger, but I have a boat to catch today, catch you later".

Facetiousness aside, the Malazan world, even where "power draws power", must be physically large enough to give powerful individuals much room to wander. The Seguleh island must rank highly on the list of places to avoid (it's deadly dangerous and you might meet an opponent even better than you). Rake, arguably an elder god, would have that viewpoint now.

[Tiste Simeon]

Zendog13 said:

Must be hell meeting the inlaws on the island eh? Wouldnt want to be dating the daughter of a higher-ranking Seguleh...

Though having said that, if your daughter is dating a high ranking Seguleh, you can rest easy in the fact that no one is going to start on her...

[Imperial Historian]

I can't quite seewhat your objection to dassem being the seguleh second is...

The seguleh second is "missing", now presumably he must have left under his own power, and it's concievable he could have run into dassem, or someone equally skilled, and with the whole seguleh culture of fighting anyone who you think might be better than you if the heirachy is in any doubt, challenged him and presumably been killed or I'd doubt he'd still be missing.

Dassem or someone else then becomes seguleh second without ever having visited the seguleh isle. With the assumption that traveller=dassem, or is travelling aorund, it's possible with the whole convergence thing that they would have come into contact with each other at some point.

As to the increasing levels of power thing... I don't buy that, conflict between seguleh ensues when one refuses to show deference ot the other, so if dassem had bumped into the second and refused to show deference they'd have fought right then and there, i don't think you'd have to fight through all the intermediate levels...