Silentarius, on 03 August 2018 - 02:21 PM, said:
Having just re-read most of the Malazan decalogy, I am fascinated by the way the character of Tavore develops; by which I mean that the development of the character in question strikes me as strangely unconvincing, even clumsily contrived - most particularly as regards her relationship with the other protagonists.
We first encounter Tavore as she commits the series' original sin, namely the delivery of her underage sister to slavery, hard labour, the certainty of repeated gang rape and the likelihood of a hideous death. Yes, she arranges for protection, but that protection is in practice so flimsy, that her sister has to sell her body in order to marginally improve the chances of survival of herself (and her bodyguard!) while on the slave transport. Not very nice, indeed. And the excuses made for her over the course of several books amount to, in effect, that she had no choice in the matter.
But observe: though the (thoroughly imbecile, but that's another matter) purge of the nobility called by the empress touches in theory every high-ranking official and officer of the empire, Tavore is not simply an unwilling tool in the purge: she is the empress's Adjunct and as such, can be presumed to have been profoundly complicit in the planning of it. More, we see her actually overseeing the loading (and partial massacre) of the purged nobles in Deadhouse Gates. No innocent, she, but rather a Lavrenti Beria to Lasseen's Joseph Stalin.
But it gets worse... In Memories of Ice, Dujek tell Paran that "Tavore... well knew what was coming. Nobleborn children were being raped. Then murdered. The order to have every nobleborn child under marrying age slain was never made official, perhaps indeed Lasseen was unaware of what was going on...". So if Lasseen was indeed unaware, who else was the architect of the purge but Adjunct Tavore? And what is being described here is perhaps the single greatest atrocity in a series richly stocked with atrocities. An order to first rape, then murder children... not even Stalin went that far.
And yes, of course Erikson has every right to present us with a cold-bloodedly cruel, ambitious and conscienceless protagonist, nor do we have to like the cold-hearted bitch. The problem is that Tavore, after a military career studded with failure, incompetence and the bodies of countless Malazan and allied troops, is still riding high with Lasseen. And while excuses can certainly be found for almost every one of her cockups, somehow I find it hard to believe that the empress would be much interested in excuses; after all, it was Napoleon who said that the quality he most valued in his marshals was luck.
And so we come at long last to The Crippled God, and to Adjunct Tavore's entirely unbelievable redemption, as she becomes the soldiers' darling and the Joan of Arc of the allied armies. This, after one final demonstration of bloody-minded military incompetence, as she forces her armies to penetrate ever deeper into the desert without adequate supplies of water. The soldiers' darling, my sainted arse. Erikson, we know, sees armies through the most sentimental of spectacles, but despite his best efforts, the troops' increasingly soft-headed adoration of this deeply unpleasant character does not even begin to convince: Tavore is tainted by her poor record, by her cold-bloodedness and, above all, by the fact that true soldiers invariably despise the tools of state repression (which all are aware she has been): German troops had no love for Gestapo officers, nor Soviet troops for the NKVD. It was sad to have the conclusion of such a monumental work undermined by Erikson's bizarre insistence on redeeming Tavore, the Empress's Butcher.
You clearly understand neither the character of Tavore, nor Soviet history.
Remember that every narrator is unreliable (just like in real life), and by design we never actually get Tavore's POV.
Additionally, it's suggested at several points in both series that the culls of the nobility were necessary to keep them from regaining power and infecting the military with incompetence.
Silentarius, on 03 August 2018 - 05:01 PM, said:
This is in response to Gorefest's very interesting post.
First of all, a few points concerning the Theory of the Long Game. Why on earth would so many major players get involved in a very deep, very complex and very long-term plot for Tavore, as you write, "to be placed centrally into the Malazan empire hierarchy, in a military capacity". Why? Was the Empire so short of military talent (and it certainly wasn't way back then) that a deep-laid plot to take down the Crippled God had to depend on the astronomical odds that a young woman with no military experience would turn out to be just the right person to lead the crusade? (This is assuming your Assumption 2 holds true, namely that there was such a deep-laid plot in the first place).
Secondly, once her sister had been handed over, no one person, not even a super-humanly tough Claw assassin, could guarantee Felesin's safety in the mines. Yes, a plot was in hand for her escape..sometime. Soon ™. Meanwhile, since Baudin could in the nature of things not be with her all the time, ill-treatment violence and rape at the hand of others was inevitable, Felesin's subsequent breakdown and Stockholm syndrome notwithstanding (actually, both reactions were probably unavoidable). And never mind the Otattaral mines. What do you think the fate of a pretty 16-year old dropped in the average Congolese, Indonesian or even American mixed-gender hard-labour prison camp today would be?
"Tavore is looking at the bigger picture of saving the world and assumes that with Baudin in place and other outside help, Felisin would be okay in the end".That's either a very naive supposition on Tavore's part, or rank hypocrisy. Hell, she could even tell herself that the kid could do with a bit of toughening up. As to the oft-repeated point about "the bigger picture", well - does a hypothetical end justify the most vicious of means? To say nothing of what the road to hell is paved with...
You have, with respect, dodged the most serious charge I made, which is the pogrom Tavore participates in and helps guide, which includes the rape and murder of children. Does the "bigger picture" justify the mass rape and killing of children? If it does, then the Malazan Empire is no better than the Pannion's - worse, actually, since Tavore and the Empress are supposedly 'sane' and 'civilised'. (And yes, I did indeed notice that Felesin is the only teenager in the transport and the mines, and realised the implication - which just makes Tavore's guilt that much greater).
Regarding her poor record: you admit that "she is very limited in what she can make the troops do". So why in Hood's name did anybody ever think it would be a good idea to task her with the job of taking on the Ultimate Big Baddy?
Finally: as far as the troops 'awe' towards the end is concerned, and their "final mutual understanding and appreciation", I repeat that such a highly improbable resolution is entirely down to Erikson's highly sentimentalised view of soldiers and armies. In any real army the world has ever know, she would have been fragged...
Anyway, enjoying the debate!
The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
Saving the world is more important than a few nobles.
nacht, on 03 August 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:
Silentaiius, you are echoing Fist Blistig
Hot iron will likely never understand Cold Iron. It is the same revulsion Corabb feels for Leoman after Y'Ghatan.
Quote
But it gets worse... In Memories of Ice, Dujek tell Paran that "Tavore... well knew what was coming. Nobleborn children were being raped. Then murdered. The order to have every nobleborn child under marrying age slain was never made official, perhaps indeed Lasseen was unaware of what was going on...". So if Lasseen was indeed unaware, who else was the architect of the purge but Adjunct Tavore?
This is Dujek *speculating* and is simply an opinion. He might very well have meant that situation went out of control, as you would expect from the law of unintended consequences.
Your hate/bias against Tavore is causing you to jump to an unwarranted conclusion.
Soldiers follow; that is what they are trained for. If they don't they can either desert or mutiny. Desertion is usually not a good option in a hostile place as there is more security in numbers (what can be more secure than being in the company of a large army).
As Andorion said, the glass dessert sojourn was Malazan tactics (and is clearly explained and by the way is successful in terms of drawing away the enemy)
Tavore herself has no expectation of success and is deeply burdened by the fact that her soldiers continue to follow her. Many stars had to align for her to succeed and she gets a lot of direct help (Mael, K'rul, Shadowthrone, Cotillion).
Your main source of hate seems to be that she started the pogrom against the nobles and for how she treated Felisin. Maybe you assume that since she was a noble, she should have some empathy for that group. Neither her or brother feel that.
Laseen chose Tavore (a noble) to enforce her pogram against the nobles. Felisin was her trial by fire. Any failure in this test would have led to a quick end for Tavore and her influence. Under these circumstances, a special ops of hostage retrieval is probably her only option and Felisin had to suffer, anything less would have led to a quick end to the plan.
As the Adjunct to the Empress, Tavore's strength was not war experience (Malazan relies heavily on sergeants and such). Rather, she was the symbolic head, like almost the empress herself being on the battle field and her Otataral sword which is a thing of priceless value, a way to negate all super beings. The sword was enough to dismiss the whirlwind.
Direct your hate to Laseen as I do :-)
Indeed. Most people who are not nobles do not seem to really like the nobles.
The glass desert kinda reminds me of part of the movie
Lawrence Of Arabia when the main characters cross a supposedly impassable desert to emerge on the other side and attack their enemy from an unexpected direction. The march across the Glass Desert is similar but because it's high fantasy, on an even bigger scale. Insane due to the difficulty, but also brilliant if pulled off.
Also obligatory Laseen did nothing wrong.
Silentarius, on 03 August 2018 - 09:42 PM, said:
nacht, on 03 August 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:
This is Dujek *speculating* and is simply an opinion. He might very well have meant that situation went out of control, as you would expect from the law of unintended consequences.
Come now. This is either pure speculation on your own part, or else a wholly unwarantable assumption; there is nothing in that passage to suggest Dujek is speculating!
nacht, on 03 August 2018 - 08:50 PM, said:
Your main source of hate seems to be that she started the pogrom against the nobles and for how she treated Felisin. Maybe you assume that since she was a noble, she should have some empathy for that group. Neither her or brother feel that.
Laseen chose Tavore (a noble) to enforce her pogram against the nobles. Felisin was her trial by fire. Any failure in this test would have led to a quick end for Tavore and her influence. Under these circumstances, a special ops of hostage retrieval is probably her only option and Felisin had to suffer, anything less would have led to a quick end to the plan.
No. Felisin is up close and personal, and horrible enough. But what everyone in this debate is weaseling out from under is the fact that Tavore iinitiated/facilitated/executed (depending on how much influence you grant her) a
general pogrom of singular hideousness, including the deliberate rape and murder of children -
that is what damns her for all eternity. No possible argument of expediency can save her, any more than it could have saved Eichman.
And also, no, I don't hate Tavore; you can't hate a fiction. But as a fictional character, I find her journey from atrocity to redemption, particularly the kind of glorious redemption SE has in store for her, implausible and unconvincing.
The nobles had it coming to some degree.
They're not a marginalized group like Jewish people in Europe. They were in power before the Malazan Empire got there. Maybe the cull (stop calling it a pogrom; it wasn't one) got out of hand and was excessive, but their power needed to be curtailed.
Also Dujek isn't omniscient or unbiased. All narrators in this series are unreliable.
Gorefest, on 03 August 2018 - 11:28 PM, said:
I still think you are accrediting way too much responsibility for the atrocities in the cull to Tavore, mainly based on a single comment by Dujek in MoI who at that point is outlawed and only has second-hand info. In HoC, Gamet actually provides far more insightful info through a flashback in which we learn that Tavore explicitly told Baudin that he was there to ensure that no harm would come to Felisin. Baudin also tells Gamet that Tavore's options are very limited and that she is under scrutiny. The best she could do for Felisin is a 'brief stint' in the Otataral mines, in Baudin's words. Most of the murders and rapes were committed by the smallfolk exacting revenge on the nobility, which the malazan troops 'let happen' for a while before restoring order and putting the nobles on trial. Tavore is also closely tailed and checked by the Red Blades, who are fiercely loyal to Laseen. Claiming that she masterminded the rape and murder of small girls and that she could have stopped these atrocities from happening are just as speculative as you claim my or other people's observations to be.
It's almost like the common people hated the nobles, who were in charge before the Malazan conquest, for some reason. I wonder why...
Puck, on 04 August 2018 - 05:32 PM, said:
Silentarius, on 04 August 2018 - 08:27 AM, said:
I was making a point about what I saw as a literary weakness in the series, namely the unconvincing redemption of a major character.
As several people have already pointed out to you, Tavore's character arc is
NOT about redemption. She knows that her actions are irredeemable. She never strives or tries to be the soldiers' darling or anything. What she does is knowingly use her soldiers and knowingly forge them into a weapon she can use to free the Crippled God. The point of dragging the Bonehunters through the Glass Desert is to turn them into believers by making them experience a pain as close to that of the Crippled God as possible. In no worls is that an action that screams seeking redemption. SE has on several occasions compared Tavore to Alexander the Great, who isn't exactly known as a holy man and peace keeper but as a conqueror who strove to conquer to the ends of the known world.
I think it's actually a compelling feature of her arc that setting course for such a goal will often require making decisions where all of the options are bad and that moral purity is somewhat a luxury. Tavore's setting out to accomplish a very ambitious and ultimately altruistic goal. She knows that the history books may recall her only for the brutal cull of the nobility and the bloody Seven Cities campaign and has accepted that.
This post has been edited by Kanese S's: 21 January 2020 - 06:59 PM