[Tattersail_]

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

Tatts: if you want to know my exact phrasing, do what people (used to) do in Mafia: look up the quote.


@Tatts, Gnaw: You two need to stop fucking badgering me about how I should deal with this. I know what I promised, I know why I promised it and I know whether or not I am good for it. I promised 2 votes to cover for Morgoth to make his deal with Twelve go through. That was 25% motivated by Morgoth also bordering Nom, and 75% by wanting to give Twelve a hand out of sympathy for the plight you two put him in. But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Do I dislike seeing IH, Nom and Morghy run away with a point as a result of this? Yes, I do, but I don't fault Twelve for making that deal. In his shoes, I would probably have done the same if the offer came. What use are points to him anyway? If he survives this game it is going to be a bigger achievement than winning it will be for any of our current frontrunners.

@IH: stop those threats about the meta being "forever" skewed against me if I do X instead of Y.
In many ways TI4 is like Diplomacy: not all starting positions are equal, you cannot win by yourself, and at some point, mutually beneficial agreements stop being that - at which point, only the really strong can afford the luxury of notifying their allies of the change in status. How many free CTs did you get through Leadership this game now? What are your average production values per turn this game?

On top of all that, I covered 2 votes for Morgoth which Twelve otherwise would have charged you for. If I don't honor the deal or if I would renegotiate it, you will still not come off any worse than you'd have if I hadn't covered for you.
As such, I'd argue that it is a bit childish to threaten to hold a multi-game grudge over something that would actually hurt me if I believed I could win (instead of viewing myself as an also-ran), but hey, apparently you disagree.
Perspective is important.

tatts has screwed himself this game anyway, it can hardly be blamed on you.

I don't understand why tatts and gnaw has gotten so combative in tone all of the sudden. This is a game where we all play our best to win. Some wont however and will pick other objectives to keep themselves interested and that's entirely fair. Besides, we all know I am going to win anyway, and so it'll be better all around if you guys move one step down from anger to acceptance.

How have I screwed myself? Other than you getting this VP I'd have only been 1 Objective away from the leaders. I chose not to gain a VP in round 2 because we all know what happened to our leaders last game.

Khell got ganged upon and then Twelve did. As it's a marathon I'm exactly where I wanted to be in the race.

Fwiw I could have discarded this agenda when I played politics but assumed a) only one person would get the VP and b no one would want to give the leader an extra one so it'd fall to Twelve.

It's crazy someone who isn't up for that VP is giving it away.

[Morgoth]

@tatts - that part about you was a little tongue in cheek. I don't think you're out of the running yet, though Gnaw almost certainly is. But I do think you've made it harder for yourself to win for no obvious gain. But, we all see it differently, and as my choices in this game have shown, I am by no means immune to failures. Massive failures.

[Gnaw]

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Eh. The only reason you're not i suspect, is because Khell misplayed his race. Too much nomad, not enough leaving colonies behind. I was surprised; I fully expected Khell and D'rek to squeeze you out.

[Morgoth]

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

Tatts: if you want to know my exact phrasing, do what people (used to) do in Mafia: look up the quote.


@Tatts, Gnaw: You two need to stop fucking badgering me about how I should deal with this. I know what I promised, I know why I promised it and I know whether or not I am good for it. I promised 2 votes to cover for Morgoth to make his deal with Twelve go through. That was 25% motivated by Morgoth also bordering Nom, and 75% by wanting to give Twelve a hand out of sympathy for the plight you two put him in. But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Do I dislike seeing IH, Nom and Morghy run away with a point as a result of this? Yes, I do, but I don't fault Twelve for making that deal. In his shoes, I would probably have done the same if the offer came. What use are points to him anyway? If he survives this game it is going to be a bigger achievement than winning it will be for any of our current frontrunners.

@IH: stop those threats about the meta being "forever" skewed against me if I do X instead of Y.
In many ways TI4 is like Diplomacy: not all starting positions are equal, you cannot win by yourself, and at some point, mutually beneficial agreements stop being that - at which point, only the really strong can afford the luxury of notifying their allies of the change in status. How many free CTs did you get through Leadership this game now? What are your average production values per turn this game?

On top of all that, I covered 2 votes for Morgoth which Twelve otherwise would have charged you for. If I don't honor the deal or if I would renegotiate it, you will still not come off any worse than you'd have if I hadn't covered for you.
As such, I'd argue that it is a bit childish to threaten to hold a multi-game grudge over something that would actually hurt me if I believed I could win (instead of viewing myself as an also-ran), but hey, apparently you disagree.
Perspective is important.

tatts has screwed himself this game anyway, it can hardly be blamed on you.

I don't understand why tatts and gnaw has gotten so combative in tone all of the sudden. This is a game where we all play our best to win. Some wont however and will pick other objectives to keep themselves interested and that's entirely fair. Besides, we all know I am going to win anyway, and so it'll be better all around if you guys move one step down from anger to acceptance.

How have I screwed myself? Other than you getting this VP I'd have only been 1 Objective away from the leaders. I chose not to gain a VP in round 2 because we all know what happened to our leaders last game.

Khell got ganged upon and then Twelve did. As it's a marathon I'm exactly where I wanted to be in the race.

Fwiw I could have discarded this agenda when I played politics but assumed a) only one person would get the VP and b no one would want to give the leader an extra one so it'd fall to Twelve.

It's crazy someone who isn't up for that VP is giving it away.

Is it? Tapper feels he is honouring a deal and twelve has every reason to screw Gnaw and yourself as much as he can.

[Tattersail_]

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

@tatts - that part about you was a little tongue in cheek. I don't think you're out of the running yet, though Gnaw almost certainly is. But I do think you've made it harder for yourself to win for no obvious gain. But, we all see it differently, and as my choices in this game have shown, I am by no means immune to failures. Massive failures.

Honestly I thought it'd be a lot easier than it turned out to be. Twelve has done fantastic with what little he has had.

[Morgoth]

Gnaw, on 28 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Eh. The only reason you're not i suspect, is because Khell misplayed his race. Too much nomad, not enough leaving colonies behind. I was surprised; I fully expected Khell and D'rek to squeeze you out.

AS shown last game, it's hard to dislodge those fucking Solarians.

[Tapper]

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

@Tapper, hard to do that on a mobile phone out in the sticks. I am at a computer today so I am catching up although I guess the agenda is going to go pretty much as I thought it would.

Out of all 9 players you are the only one in a position to stop multiple players getting VP's and a rider.

I withdraw my offer to you. Obviously you are going to do what you think best to not upset the apple cart.


Now I am able I'll go back to Twelve planning for this eventuality as he knew he wanted the diplomacy rider to go through so was garnering votes.


Firstly here is the original offer;

Quote

twelve, on 13 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

So just FYI, only Khell is getting a free refresh. Tapper and Gnaw won't. Gnaw for obvious reasons and Tapper only because he gave his trade PN to Tatts. For everyone else to get one they first have to agree to not trade with Gnaw or Tatts for any trade goods or commodities (this condition is non negotiable) and something else. Thinking 1 trade good and 2 votes or 8 votes or best offer.

He excluded you from the offer and could have screwed you. I could have chosen not to refresh my commodities because of this.

D'rek agreed to this deal but Twelve did not call in her votes. Why not?

D, on 13 August 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

Ah right, makes sense. Well, I'll promise you 4 votes and I won't give my commodities to Gnaw or Tatts. Anything more than that isn't worth it for me for just the 2 commodities I get.

didn't call in these votes either

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

and quite in fact Tapper

Tapper, on 14 August 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

twelve, on 14 August 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

If IH picks up the 2 extra votes yes.

I'll guarantee you these two votes Twelve, regardless of what IH does.
Morgoth and I share a neighbour now, but we are still far apart ourselves. Doing him and IH a minor favor may be smart long term.

He didn't call in these votes from Morgoth and you are the one covering them, so based on this exchange you do not owe him on this agenda, surely it is the agenda Morgoth's votes go towards?

Yep reading up there was no stipulation when you should have to give your votes or for what agenda you use them on. Twelve did not call up his votes from Morgoth, D'rek, IH or Nom. It seems he is only trying to call up your votes. That seems a bit unfair.

No, it isn't unfair. It is in fact well calculated.

D'rek played a rider so cannot vote. Morgoth, IH and Nom are going to vote FOR if it has a chance to win. As such not calling in those votes will keep them with an obligation to Twelve. Twelve calling in my votes makes sure it passes and it is therefore the least expense he has to make, and one he can make more deals around.

[Tattersail_]

That's the thing Morgoth. I'm not bothered that Twelve is getting the rider. He has to do what he has to do. He planned for this early last round. First time someone has used votes in this way. Impressive.

[Tattersail_]

I don't know why we are discussing it, you've made up your mind.

You guys should be discussing where the action card law is going.

[Morgoth]

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 10:05 AM, said:

I don't know why we are discussing it, you've made up your mind.

You guys should be discussing where the action card law is going.

to twelve it seems like.

[Tapper]

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Gnaw, on 28 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Eh. The only reason you're not i suspect, is because Khell misplayed his race. Too much nomad, not enough leaving colonies behind. I was surprised; I fully expected Khell and D'rek to squeeze you out.

AS shown last game, it's hard to dislodge those fucking Solarians.

I would certainly have been looking at a long war with no shot at VP.
Then again, if Khell had pressed on turn 1 instead of accept my counter-offer, it would have been just me and Khell. D'rek would only become a factor if I started winning - more likely, she'd be at war with Khell before she'd be at war with me.

The other difference is that I would probably have been able to trade away most commodities for TGs every turn (which Twelve can't, seeing how he is fighting you and Tatts - the two people who have the ability to trade with non-neighbours).

On top of that, Khell would have needed a second Space Docks to stay in the VP race himself, harvesting from fairly poor planets, while spending good chunks of production on top of that for infantry to combat me. He'd need to outnumber me 3:2 at the very least, given how Daxcive would lead to auto-reinforcement for me and Special Ops II within 2 turns (which would fortify my home planet at no cost), and Orbital Drop would make Tactical actions irrelevant for me.

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 10:20 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 10:00 AM, said:

Gnaw, on 28 August 2018 - 09:58 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Eh. The only reason you're not i suspect, is because Khell misplayed his race. Too much nomad, not enough leaving colonies behind. I was surprised; I fully expected Khell and D'rek to squeeze you out.

AS shown last game, it's hard to dislodge those fucking Solarians.

I would certainly have been looking at a long war with no shot at VP.
Then again, if Khell had pressed on turn 1 instead of accept my counter-offer, it would have been just me and Khell. D'rek would only become a factor if I started winning - more likely, she'd be at war with Khell before she'd be at war with me.

The other difference is that I would probably have been able to trade away most commodities for TGs every turn (which Twelve can't, seeing how he is fighting you and Tatts - the two people who have the ability to trade with non-neighbours).

On top of that, Khell would have needed a second Space Docks to stay in the VP race himself, harvesting from fairly poor planets, while spending good chunks of production on top of that for infantry to combat me. He'd need to outnumber me 3:2 at the very least, given how Daxcive would lead to auto-reinforcement for me and Special Ops II within 2 turns (which would fortify my home planet at no cost), and Orbital Drop would make Tactical actions irrelevant for me.

Exactly. The last thing Saar would want is a prolonged war of attrition. That's the opposite of what they need to win. It wouldn't be good for you either obviously, but you'd be in a much better position to come out on top.

[Morgoth]

soooo....

[Itwæs Nom]

Sooooo will you pay me the tg for twelve when you have it?

[Morgoth]

Itwæs Nom, on 28 August 2018 - 01:20 PM, said:

Sooooo will you pay me the tg for twelve when you have it?

Sure, I can hardly complain about 1 VP for a TG even if I never was part of that negotiation, though I will only pay if the initiative does in fact succeed.

Be aware that I have no TGs and that Khell holds my trade PN. So it will be some time before I am able to give you anything.

[twelve]

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

@Tapper, hard to do that on a mobile phone out in the sticks. I am at a computer today so I am catching up although I guess the agenda is going to go pretty much as I thought it would.

Out of all 9 players you are the only one in a position to stop multiple players getting VP's and a rider.

I withdraw my offer to you. Obviously you are going to do what you think best to not upset the apple cart.


Now I am able I'll go back to Twelve planning for this eventuality as he knew he wanted the diplomacy rider to go through so was garnering votes.


Firstly here is the original offer;

Quote

twelve, on 13 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

So just FYI, only Khell is getting a free refresh. Tapper and Gnaw won't. Gnaw for obvious reasons and Tapper only because he gave his trade PN to Tatts. For everyone else to get one they first have to agree to not trade with Gnaw or Tatts for any trade goods or commodities (this condition is non negotiable) and something else. Thinking 1 trade good and 2 votes or 8 votes or best offer.

He excluded you from the offer and could have screwed you. I could have chosen not to refresh my commodities because of this.

D'rek agreed to this deal but Twelve did not call in her votes. Why not?

D, on 13 August 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

Ah right, makes sense. Well, I'll promise you 4 votes and I won't give my commodities to Gnaw or Tatts. Anything more than that isn't worth it for me for just the 2 commodities I get.

didn't call in these votes either

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

and quite in fact Tapper

Tapper, on 14 August 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

twelve, on 14 August 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

If IH picks up the 2 extra votes yes.

I'll guarantee you these two votes Twelve, regardless of what IH does.
Morgoth and I share a neighbour now, but we are still far apart ourselves. Doing him and IH a minor favor may be smart long term.

He didn't call in these votes from Morgoth and you are the one covering them, so based on this exchange you do not owe him on this agenda, surely it is the agenda Morgoth's votes go towards?

Yep reading up there was no stipulation when you should have to give your votes or for what agenda you use them on. Twelve did not call up his votes from Morgoth, D'rek, IH or Nom. It seems he is only trying to call up your votes. That seems a bit unfair.

D'rek and Morgoth played a rider genius so cant vote in the agenda. IH and Nom gain a VP for the agenda passing so I didn't need to call them in. They had the motivstion to vote that way all on theit own. Morgoth would have been in this boat as well if he hadn't played the rider. And this lawyering of deals is exactly what I was talking about when I said you ride the razors edge of breaking deals. It's forced me to be very explicit it the wordings with everyone else n what is expected of both party's because you have yet to honor the spirit of most deals.

[twelve]

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 09:57 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 28 August 2018 - 09:50 AM, said:

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

Tatts: if you want to know my exact phrasing, do what people (used to) do in Mafia: look up the quote.


@Tatts, Gnaw: You two need to stop fucking badgering me about how I should deal with this. I know what I promised, I know why I promised it and I know whether or not I am good for it. I promised 2 votes to cover for Morgoth to make his deal with Twelve go through. That was 25% motivated by Morgoth also bordering Nom, and 75% by wanting to give Twelve a hand out of sympathy for the plight you two put him in. But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Do I dislike seeing IH, Nom and Morghy run away with a point as a result of this? Yes, I do, but I don't fault Twelve for making that deal. In his shoes, I would probably have done the same if the offer came. What use are points to him anyway? If he survives this game it is going to be a bigger achievement than winning it will be for any of our current frontrunners.

@IH: stop those threats about the meta being "forever" skewed against me if I do X instead of Y.
In many ways TI4 is like Diplomacy: not all starting positions are equal, you cannot win by yourself, and at some point, mutually beneficial agreements stop being that - at which point, only the really strong can afford the luxury of notifying their allies of the change in status. How many free CTs did you get through Leadership this game now? What are your average production values per turn this game?

On top of all that, I covered 2 votes for Morgoth which Twelve otherwise would have charged you for. If I don't honor the deal or if I would renegotiate it, you will still not come off any worse than you'd have if I hadn't covered for you.
As such, I'd argue that it is a bit childish to threaten to hold a multi-game grudge over something that would actually hurt me if I believed I could win (instead of viewing myself as an also-ran), but hey, apparently you disagree.
Perspective is important.

tatts has screwed himself this game anyway, it can hardly be blamed on you.

I don't understand why tatts and gnaw has gotten so combative in tone all of the sudden. This is a game where we all play our best to win. Some wont however and will pick other objectives to keep themselves interested and that's entirely fair. Besides, we all know I am going to win anyway, and so it'll be better all around if you guys move one step down from anger to acceptance.

How have I screwed myself? Other than you getting this VP I'd have only been 1 Objective away from the leaders. I chose not to gain a VP in round 2 because we all know what happened to our leaders last game.

Khell got ganged upon and then Twelve did. As it's a marathon I'm exactly where I wanted to be in the race.

Fwiw I could have discarded this agenda when I played politics but assumed a) only one person would get the VP and b no one would want to give the leader an extra one so it'd fall to Twelve.

It's crazy someone who isn't up for that VP is giving it away.

What good is VP when I'm not around to enjoy it.

[Tattersail_]

twelve, on 28 August 2018 - 02:06 PM, said:

Tattersail_, on 28 August 2018 - 09:38 AM, said:

@Tapper, hard to do that on a mobile phone out in the sticks. I am at a computer today so I am catching up although I guess the agenda is going to go pretty much as I thought it would.

Out of all 9 players you are the only one in a position to stop multiple players getting VP's and a rider.

I withdraw my offer to you. Obviously you are going to do what you think best to not upset the apple cart.

Now I am able I'll go back to Twelve planning for this eventuality as he knew he wanted the diplomacy rider to go through so was garnering votes.

Firstly here is the original offer;

Quote

twelve, on 13 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

So just FYI, only Khell is getting a free refresh. Tapper and Gnaw won't. Gnaw for obvious reasons and Tapper only because he gave his trade PN to Tatts. For everyone else to get one they first have to agree to not trade with Gnaw or Tatts for any trade goods or commodities (this condition is non negotiable) and something else. Thinking 1 trade good and 2 votes or 8 votes or best offer.

He excluded you from the offer and could have screwed you. I could have chosen not to refresh my commodities because of this.

D'rek agreed to this deal but Twelve did not call in her votes. Why not?

D, on 13 August 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

Ah right, makes sense. Well, I'll promise you 4 votes and I won't give my commodities to Gnaw or Tatts. Anything more than that isn't worth it for me for just the 2 commodities I get.

didn't call in these votes either

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

and quite in fact Tapper

Tapper, on 14 August 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

twelve, on 14 August 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

If IH picks up the 2 extra votes yes.

I'll guarantee you these two votes Twelve, regardless of what IH does.
Morgoth and I share a neighbour now, but we are still far apart ourselves. Doing him and IH a minor favor may be smart long term.

He didn't call in these votes from Morgoth and you are the one covering them, so based on this exchange you do not owe him on this agenda, surely it is the agenda Morgoth's votes go towards?

Yep reading up there was no stipulation when you should have to give your votes or for what agenda you use them on. Twelve did not call up his votes from Morgoth, D'rek, IH or Nom. It seems he is only trying to call up your votes. That seems a bit unfair.

D'rek and Morgoth played a rider genius so cant vote in the agenda. IH and Nom gain a VP for the agenda passing so I didn't need to call them in. They had the motivstion to vote that way all on theit own. Morgoth would have been in this boat as well if he hadn't played the rider. And this lawyering of deals is exactly what I was talking about when I said you ride the razors edge of breaking deals. It's forced me to be very explicit it the wordings with everyone else n what is expected of both party's because you have yet to honor the spirit of most deals.

They could only play their rider as you never called in their votes. I assume that you wanted all their votes at the start of the round because you wanted to make sure of an agenda passing in the event you needed to use diplomacy. You never once stated to any player when you'd call in those votes or if they had to vote on a particular agenda, just that you'd have them.

Name a deal I've broken then. You keep saying this but I've kept my word with each player i've done deals with. I personally do not see ours as a deal. Doesn't matter what others think or say.

None of this matters right now as most people will have voted.

[twelve]

I hadn't decided where I was calling in my yet. Morgoth placed his rider very early and D'rek played hers shortly after I posted. I was a bit distracted with family stuff over the weekend but to me riders on the agenda I want to oass just means they can't be used to make it fail and I get to call them in later.

[twelve]

I've cast my votes. FYI