[Gnaw]

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

[Tattersail_]

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

[Itwæs Nom]

@12 could you please remind me what exactly I offered the tg to you for? Not backtracking, just curious...

[Itwæs Nom]

Calling in all the votes that were owed to you so you can get your rider right?

Yeah I'm willing to pay with my trade PN and have Morgy give me the tg as soon as he can

[twelve]

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

@12 could you please remind me what exactly I offered the tg to you for? Not backtracking, just curious...

If I called in my owed votes toward the for result for seed of an empire agenda everyone who benefited from that result would give me a trade good. Both you and IH said you would find that acceptable. I knew Morgoth was out and not likely to reply so didn't wait for his response. He might still be willing to pay but if not I'll give you back a trade good at a later date if you give me your trade agreement pn.

[Itwæs Nom]

If everyone keeps looking for subtle holes in the wording of their deals everyone will have to be extremely careful and try to cover for all the possible ways around the deals they're striking and that's no fun, this is a game not court. I'm not even saying this because it's beneficial to me right now, well maybe I am, but I always think this way about rules (that's what a deal is ain't it, 2 parties exchanging a set of rules to follow), and mafia people know that.

[Itwæs Nom]

twelve, on 27 August 2018 - 08:52 PM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 08:46 PM, said:

@12 could you please remind me what exactly I offered the tg to you for? Not backtracking, just curious...

If I called in my owed votes toward the for result for seed of an empire agenda everyone who benefited from that result would give me a trade good. Both you and IH said you would find that acceptable. I knew Morgoth was out and not likely to reply so didn't wait for his response. He might still be willing to pay but if not I'll give you back a trade good at a later date if you give me your trade agreement pn.

When's Morgy supposed to be around?

[Gnaw]

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

If everyone keeps looking for subtle holes in the wording of their deals everyone will have to be extremely careful and try to cover for all the possible ways around the deals they're striking and that's no fun, this is a game not court. I'm not even saying this because it's beneficial to me right now, well maybe I am, but I always think this way about rules (that's what a deal is ain't it, 2 parties exchanging a set of rules to follow), and mafia people know that.

I absolutely agree with this. Which is why I dislike this part of the game. Too much nitpicking, renegotiating, and lawyering. Twelve and Tatts being the most proficient at that. It brings out the sharp dealer in me which is a side of me I don't particularly like. For example, last game when I told Tatts I'd move that fighter without mentioning that I planned on parking a destroyer there via AC prior to doing so. Letter of the law versus spirit.

And the riders bring out the absolute worst of that. Should I mod a game, the riders won't be in it.

[Imperial Historian]

twelve, on 27 August 2018 - 08:27 PM, said:

D'rek, Tapper if you allow the for to go through I still have my sftt to give out. I'll save it to give it to one of you to make up that lost point this agenda puts you back. Say the fist to 11 between you and it's yours.

D'rek no longer has any influence on the vote, she's played her rider on it.

[Imperial Historian]

I've updated the agenda post with the relevant riders and what they do.

[Imperial Historian]

And I highly disagree about the voting and the riders Gnaw, getting rid of them gets rid of half the game!

People make deals and they come and bite them in the ass later in the game, that's part of the fun. And yes one vote can be extremely valuable as it stops someone voting against you.

[Itwæs Nom]

I haven't agreed to sending you my trade pn yet 12

[twelve]

Itwæs Nom, on 28 August 2018 - 01:56 AM, said:

I haven't agreed to sending you my trade pn yet 12

Sounded like you did.

[twelve]

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

Calling in all the votes that were owed to you so you can get your rider right?

Yeah I'm willing to pay with my trade PN and have Morgy give me the tg as soon as he can

This

Also I said if Morgoth doesn't agree to pay you I would pay you back the extra trade good.

[Itwæs Nom]

twelve, on 28 August 2018 - 02:18 AM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 08:51 PM, said:

Calling in all the votes that were owed to you so you can get your rider right?

Yeah I'm willing to pay with my trade PN and have Morgy give me the tg as soon as he can

This

Also I said if Morgoth doesn't agree to pay you I would pay you back the extra trade good.

I misread it as the exact opposite... it's yours then

[Tapper]

Tattersail_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

Tatts: if you want to know my exact phrasing, do what people (used to) do in Mafia: look up the quote.


@Tatts, Gnaw: You two need to stop fucking badgering me about how I should deal with this. I know what I promised, I know why I promised it and I know whether or not I am good for it. I promised 2 votes to cover for Morgoth to make his deal with Twelve go through. That was 25% motivated by Morgoth also bordering Nom, and 75% by wanting to give Twelve a hand out of sympathy for the plight you two put him in. But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Do I dislike seeing IH, Nom and Morghy run away with a point as a result of this? Yes, I do, but I don't fault Twelve for making that deal. In his shoes, I would probably have done the same if the offer came. What use are points to him anyway? If he survives this game it is going to be a bigger achievement than winning it will be for any of our current frontrunners.

@IH: stop those threats about the meta being "forever" skewed against me if I do X instead of Y.
In many ways TI4 is like Diplomacy: not all starting positions are equal, you cannot win by yourself, and at some point, mutually beneficial agreements stop being that - at which point, only the really strong can afford the luxury of notifying their allies of the change in status. How many free CTs did you get through Leadership this game now? What are your average production values per turn this game?

On top of all that, I covered 2 votes for Morgoth which Twelve otherwise would have charged you for. If I don't honor the deal or if I would renegotiate it, you will still not come off any worse than you'd have if I hadn't covered for you.
As such, I'd argue that it is a bit childish to threaten to hold a multi-game grudge over something that would actually hurt me if I believed I could win (instead of viewing myself as an also-ran), but hey, apparently you disagree.
Perspective is important.

[Tattersail_]

@Tapper, hard to do that on a mobile phone out in the sticks. I am at a computer today so I am catching up although I guess the agenda is going to go pretty much as I thought it would.

Out of all 9 players you are the only one in a position to stop multiple players getting VP's and a rider.

I withdraw my offer to you. Obviously you are going to do what you think best to not upset the apple cart.


Now I am able I'll go back to Twelve planning for this eventuality as he knew he wanted the diplomacy rider to go through so was garnering votes.


Firstly here is the original offer;

Quote

twelve, on 13 August 2018 - 09:29 PM, said:

So just FYI, only Khell is getting a free refresh. Tapper and Gnaw won't. Gnaw for obvious reasons and Tapper only because he gave his trade PN to Tatts. For everyone else to get one they first have to agree to not trade with Gnaw or Tatts for any trade goods or commodities (this condition is non negotiable) and something else. Thinking 1 trade good and 2 votes or 8 votes or best offer.

He excluded you from the offer and could have screwed you. I could have chosen not to refresh my commodities because of this.

D'rek agreed to this deal but Twelve did not call in her votes. Why not?

D, on 13 August 2018 - 10:15 PM, said:

Ah right, makes sense. Well, I'll promise you 4 votes and I won't give my commodities to Gnaw or Tatts. Anything more than that isn't worth it for me for just the 2 commodities I get.

didn't call in these votes either

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

and quite in fact Tapper

Tapper, on 14 August 2018 - 08:02 AM, said:

twelve, on 14 August 2018 - 07:25 AM, said:

Morgoth, on 14 August 2018 - 06:54 AM, said:

twelve, I gain no benefit from my commodities since I gave IH my trade PN, but I would like to fullfill my deal with him. Would you settle for 4 votes for a free refresh from me?

If IH picks up the 2 extra votes yes.

I'll guarantee you these two votes Twelve, regardless of what IH does.
Morgoth and I share a neighbour now, but we are still far apart ourselves. Doing him and IH a minor favor may be smart long term.

He didn't call in these votes from Morgoth and you are the one covering them, so based on this exchange you do not owe him on this agenda, surely it is the agenda Morgoth's votes go towards?

Yep reading up there was no stipulation when you should have to give your votes or for what agenda you use them on. Twelve did not call up his votes from Morgoth, D'rek, IH or Nom. It seems he is only trying to call up your votes. That seems a bit unfair.

[Morgoth]

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 09:19 PM, said:

Itwæs Nom, on 27 August 2018 - 09:00 PM, said:

If everyone keeps looking for subtle holes in the wording of their deals everyone will have to be extremely careful and try to cover for all the possible ways around the deals they're striking and that's no fun, this is a game not court. I'm not even saying this because it's beneficial to me right now, well maybe I am, but I always think this way about rules (that's what a deal is ain't it, 2 parties exchanging a set of rules to follow), and mafia people know that.

I absolutely agree with this. Which is why I dislike this part of the game. Too much nitpicking, renegotiating, and lawyering. Twelve and Tatts being the most proficient at that. It brings out the sharp dealer in me which is a side of me I don't particularly like. For example, last game when I told Tatts I'd move that fighter without mentioning that I planned on parking a destroyer there via AC prior to doing so. Letter of the law versus spirit.

And the riders bring out the absolute worst of that. Should I mod a game, the riders won't be in it.

That would remove a big portion of the game! I for one enjoy this aspect of the game, and it specifically designed around it too. As I've said before, this is not first and foremost a war game, but rather a game of diplomacy. If not then Norr and Letvenev and Mentak and L1xz1t would be the winners of every game, rather than the University and Hacan.

[Morgoth]

Tapper, on 28 August 2018 - 09:11 AM, said:

Tattersail_, on 27 August 2018 - 08:36 PM, said:

Gnaw, on 27 August 2018 - 08:30 PM, said:

Tapper, on 27 August 2018 - 08:15 PM, said:

Imperial Historian, on 27 August 2018 - 07:47 PM, said:

And from then on any agreement from tapper in this or future games that is nonbinding is worthless.

Well, worthless... from then on...
I could theoretically always ask Twelve to call in my 2 at another time. After all, this is between him and me, not between you and me.

Give him your 2 votes on the other agenda.

Exactly. Did you stipulate the two votes were to go on a particular agenda? What was your exact phrasing.

Other people gegging in on your deal. You said you would give him two votes but you didn't say anything else.

Give him 2 votes on the other agenda and the rest against on the first. Not sure how close it will be though but you'll be creating a bigger gap for IH Morgoth and Nom.

Tatts: if you want to know my exact phrasing, do what people (used to) do in Mafia: look up the quote.


@Tatts, Gnaw: You two need to stop fucking badgering me about how I should deal with this. I know what I promised, I know why I promised it and I know whether or not I am good for it. I promised 2 votes to cover for Morgoth to make his deal with Twelve go through. That was 25% motivated by Morgoth also bordering Nom, and 75% by wanting to give Twelve a hand out of sympathy for the plight you two put him in. But for a slightly different selection of starting slices, that would have been me being put the squeeze on.

Do I dislike seeing IH, Nom and Morghy run away with a point as a result of this? Yes, I do, but I don't fault Twelve for making that deal. In his shoes, I would probably have done the same if the offer came. What use are points to him anyway? If he survives this game it is going to be a bigger achievement than winning it will be for any of our current frontrunners.

@IH: stop those threats about the meta being "forever" skewed against me if I do X instead of Y.
In many ways TI4 is like Diplomacy: not all starting positions are equal, you cannot win by yourself, and at some point, mutually beneficial agreements stop being that - at which point, only the really strong can afford the luxury of notifying their allies of the change in status. How many free CTs did you get through Leadership this game now? What are your average production values per turn this game?

On top of all that, I covered 2 votes for Morgoth which Twelve otherwise would have charged you for. If I don't honor the deal or if I would renegotiate it, you will still not come off any worse than you'd have if I hadn't covered for you.
As such, I'd argue that it is a bit childish to threaten to hold a multi-game grudge over something that would actually hurt me if I believed I could win (instead of viewing myself as an also-ran), but hey, apparently you disagree.
Perspective is important.

tatts has screwed himself this game anyway, it can hardly be blamed on you.

I don't understand why tatts and gnaw has gotten so combative in tone all of the sudden. This is a game where we all play our best to win. Some wont however and will pick other objectives to keep themselves interested and that's entirely fair. Besides, we all know I am going to win anyway, and so it'll be better all around if you guys move one step down from anger to acceptance.

[Morgoth]

As for agreements and metagames and all. It seems silly to carry a grudge over multiple games. That's a direct way of sabotaging your own chances of winning, which makes no sense to me. What makes sense is to learn how people play the game and plan around that. I am sure you're starting to get a feel of how I play, and I certainly am learning about your mentalities when it comes to this game. That's part of the fun!


When it comes to agreements, I prefer to follow their spirit as much as I can, but I think we all also accept that there are limits to how loyal one is going to be in a zero sum game. There's no trophy for second place, or for best ''ally''.